r/JewsOfConscience • u/dustydancers Sephardic • Nov 07 '24
News Fresh new German antisemitism resolution!
I may be deported soon I guess lol. Things here haven’t really changed since the 30’s ..
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u/mcgillhufflepuff Ashkenazi Nov 07 '24
This could lead to Jewish non-zionists losing their German citizenship. Gee, Germany, let's not strip Jewish people of their citizenship again–last time wasn't good (also do not support anyone losing their citizenship over Israel criticism).
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u/lycogenesis Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
Everytime a German politician opens his/her mouth it makes it clearer that they just like to kill people regardless of who they are killing. The veil of "holocaust guilt" can't rationalize anymore the absolute filth that comes from these organizations
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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Nov 08 '24
The bill isn't going to be used against Jews or Germans. It's designed specifically to keep arab refugees from getting citizenship.
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Nov 09 '24
Not even Israel does this with its own protestors. Germany would crack down harder on anti-zionists than Israel does at this point. This resolution is insane, and I can't emphasize the insane part enough.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist Nov 07 '24
It's like they never miss an opportunity to be on the wrong side of history. Like a clockwork.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 07 '24
Chuck Schumer has pledged to sign off on the IHRA bill for college campuses.
France is mulling similar legislation as Germany.
Jewish Currents predicted that this would happen. Each time Israel commits a massacre/war crimes, more people get aware of the issue and protest and minds are changed.
So pro-Israel organizations like the ADL attempt to clamp down further on the discourse.
Since we've reached the point of genocide and the Dems have signaled that there are no red-lines, these pro-Israel organizations will keep pushing for more repressive measures.
Anti-BDS laws are already serving as a template for corporations to combat opposition from activist groups - i.e. the Fossil Fuels industry vs. climate change activism.
So, not only are these anti-free speech laws corrosive to this issue - they are used to censor other topics too.
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
I find it very strange that it mentions cracking down on anti-Imperialism, as it admits that there is an Empire, and it's authoritarian. Like, isn't the whole game pretending that we're in a liberal democracy?
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 07 '24
I think theyre done pretending at this point
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Nov 07 '24
I mean, the past year here in Germany has been a real eye-opener for me as a reasonably well integrated white immigrant. It's fucking gross, to be honest.
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u/koi88 Nov 08 '24
I am German and I feel the same. It's incredible.
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
Not gonna lie, that 88 in your username is a bit disconcerting all things considered.
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u/koi88 Nov 08 '24
I'm sorry about the "88".
When I made the account some 14 years ago, I had no idea about the meaning of "88".
My GF at the time was Japanese, "koi" is a symbol of luck in Japan and "8" or "88" are considered lucky numbers in East Asia.
I didn't expect Nazis would rise again.
My grandmother said "The Germans may be stupid, but they will not be that stupid to follow Nazis again." Yet here we are.
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u/darps Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
My grandmother said "The Germans may be stupid, but they will not be that stupid to follow Nazis again." Yet here we are.
A lot of Germans think the same way, and don't see the signs for that reason.
Also while we emphasize historical education around the nazis, we greatly lack the political education to go along with it. People don't actually know the hallmarks of fascist ideology, so they cannot recognize them in today's far-right rhetoric and think the criticism is overblown. In their mind you have to be already committing genocide and starting world wars before you can be legitimately called a nazi.
I guess it hasn't occurred to them that it's too late at that point.
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
It's definitely shitty when shit people coopt symbols and cultural things. The swastika being a symbol for peace, for example.
In a better timeline your username would be such a simple and nice thing, but yes, here we are again. Shit people causing normal people to mistrust each other over innocuous things.
I don't hold your username against you, it was just a shitty reaction brought on by so many bots online with all these numbers in their names and literal nazis posting garbage constantly. I'm just so over it, tbh.
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u/Moostronus Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 08 '24
If only you made your account 13 or 15 years ago, instead of it actually being 14.
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u/naiiiiina Nov 08 '24
What were some things in Germany specifically that were eye opening? I live in england and had a similar experience but Germany seems a lot worse so I was just wondering
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u/OrganicOverdose Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
Well, a lot of my German friends are relatively liberal-minded. Open-minded towards LGBTQ. Left-leaning. Progressive in most ideologies. Quite critical of the older generation and their mentality towards the future apropos Environment, Education, Social Welfare, etc. However, when I talked to them about the genocide in Gaza, how it was obviously a complete overreaction, how Gazans and Palestinians had been occupied for decades, it suddenly became complicated.
A good friend of mine reiterated the "baby in the oven" propaganda, as well as the "systematic rape" allegations. And when I pointed out that these were taken as fact before ever being proven, and since had been heavily discredited, well then it was almost a fight. Suddenly I was "wrong", or "didn't understand". Others had no idea about the ICJ ruling regarding the apartheid in Palestine. They claimed it was "crystal clear" self-defense what Israel was doing in Gaza.
It was shocking to me.
People who were normally quite attuned to oppressive attitudes suddenly couldn't recognize it in such a blatant case. Until I realized that all the news here is geared towards that. Nobody talks about it because it's a difficult topic. Nobody questions the government when they accuse protesters of violence. The Germans trust their government, trust their police forces, because mostly it works ... for them.
Other friends of mine shut down completely on mention of Gaza. They go silent. They turn the conversation to themselves and their own fears. They simply cannot openly address the genocide that Israel is enacting.
And when it comes to Israel, well, that's "Judenland" and so it's better to not really think much more about it. Whoever is arrested, they're obviously criminals. That's how the law works. If they were Jewish themselves, well, they must have broken the law some other way. There is a psychological block there, and honestly I couldn't understand it until I watched a video on YouTube by a German Philosophy Professor Dr. Möller called "Guilt Pride" and it made more sense.
Anyway, I could go on about this, but this is a cultural issue, and being a foreigner here I don't share their conditioning. It has become a rather serious issue here too, because Germany has welcomed people into Germany who have been displaced due to western interference, but those people do not share some certain values with German culture, and instead of addressing them, the Government has decided to blame the foreigners, rather than critical self-reflection. So, in that same way right-wing groups like AfD have leveraged this rift to win over bigots and it works, because nobody is addressing the problem for fear or because they're incapable of actually seeing the flaws in German society.
Seriously, to make Israel the "Reason of State", regardless of their actions, is such an intellectually and morally weak stance to hold, but because of both cultural indoctrination, US influence, and perhaps residual historical politics, they will not change this.
TLDR; I thought this was a rather intelligent, progressive country, but in reality there are a lot of stupid bigots and there is, IMO, a lot of people indoctrinated by a certain mentality that perpetuates a supremacist status quo mentality and I don't think they see that at all.
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u/Arestothenes Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
Even much of the German Left treats Anti-Imperialism as a dirty word. Empire is good, as long as there’s the annual pride parade, I guess 😵💫
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u/allneonunlike Ashkenazi Nov 07 '24
Aren’t something like 30% of the people being arrested for antisemitism in Germany antizionist Jews? Gabor Maté is Hungarian, but are probably a handful of elderly German child survivors like him who could have been stripped of their citizenship in 1935, renaturalized in 2021 under the Holocaust right to return laws, and then expelled again in 2024.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 07 '24
She estimates that 30% of German institutional cancellations have been against German Jews for alleged antisemitism.
We can see a similar phenomena in England within the Labour party. British progressive/leftist Jews were disproportionately targeted by party leadership for antisemitism accusations/disciplinary action.
The various news articles on this new resolution have reported that critics find it unconstitutional (ie violating civil liberties).
From a legal perspective, the resolution is a great disappointment. Earlier drafts were criticized severely by lawyers as most likely unconstitutional. In view of these criticisms, it is puzzling to see that the final version of the text is mostly unchanged," says Ralf Michaels, the director of the Max Planck Institute for Comparative and International Private Law in Hamburg. Michaels is one of several experts who have offered an alternative proposal.
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u/koi88 Nov 08 '24
Jewish voices are the most dangerous for the narrative, as they cannot easily be depicted as antisemitic (it is still done, but not very credible). The opposite is a person with an Arabic sounding name: There is no need to listen, as they must be antisemitic. That happened to Adania Shibli. She is even Palestinian. She won a literary prize, but the committee was then afraid what she may talk about in her speech, so the award ceremony was cancelled.
Recently cancelled Jewish thinkers include Nancy Fraser, Candice Breitz, but also Eyal Weizman (who won the alternative Nobel Prize with his organization "Forensic Architecture").
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I have dual citizenship, German Israeli. This is beyond, almost comical to me. My grandma had to flee, my mom returned, I get expelled. Full circle moment for three generations of jewish women 👍
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u/koi88 Nov 08 '24
It's ridiculous.
However – I don't think anybody will be expelled because of that resolution as it's very likely unconstitutional (I mean, how can it not be?). The Bundesverfassungsgericht (constitutional court) will probably declare the whole thing as not valid.
Besides, a Jewish person would be the very, very last to get expelled.
Expelling a Jew would endanger the narrative that it's mostly Muslims that cause the trouble. It may make some people think.And who wants that?
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 08 '24
Hopefully this won't pass. Not that countries care that much about international law, but they can't even maintain the slightest pretense to care if they strip away people's citizenship. If they don't have another nationality, it would violate international treaties, including the Universal Declaration on Human Rights and the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness.
Sure, that doesn't apply to Israel which does revoke citizenship. But they look at international law as a dare to brazenly violate.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24
Too late, It's already passed.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 08 '24
I checked several outlets and I'm not seeing anything about stripping people of their citizenship passing.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
The two keywords, dual citizenship.
https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/antisemitism/article-825689, <-- This article talks about revoking but they would have to make an amendment, this was pointed out by Thisisme8719 so take it with a pinch of salt.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Nov 08 '24
That doesn't say it passed. It says that the revocation of citizenship was a proposed amendment to a law that was passed a few months ago. That law was for denying applicants for citizenship, not revoking citizenship from people who got it (which doesn't count if it's done through fraud etc).
It's still a terrible thing and inexcusable to deny people citizenship because of that kind of speech, but stripping away citizenship is a whole other can of worms. Even with people who have other nationalities (which I mentioned), there were controversies when European countries did that to citizens who joined ISIS since applying a law to only one class of people (with two or more nationalities) can be challenged as discriminatory.3
u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24
Re-reading it, it seems like you're indeed right.
Thank you for highlighting that, it's a key element, I didn't pick up before.
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u/AffectionateElk3978 Nov 07 '24
So much freedom!!! The west showing it's true colors when it comes to "civil liberties"
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u/RiqueSouz Nov 08 '24
Well, the German part that kicked the Nazis for real was occupied by the part that didn't in 1989, most of the judiciary, which were integral for the whole nazi rising and subsequent government never really got out, they stood from the late German Empire till the early unified Germany, in other words, the civilian branches of the nazi apparatus still standing untill today, they were also instrumental to what was, in reality, one of the worst purges in Europe, which was misleadingly called "right of return", they literally expelled the survivors of the Holocaust from their land to fill a colonial project as canon fodder, the propaganda is so effective that even that being that obvious in front of everyone, the average person never really realized, even the Neonazis themselves realize, and a lot of those who did actually didn't care since it doesn't bother them anyway, and of course, Germany is just an example in a plethora of examples... The fascism never really went away, it changed, but it was indeed a mainstream model for the the countries outside the commblock, and probably even some inside the commblock itself...
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u/Dry-Rub-6968 Non-Jewish Ally Nov 08 '24
Almost as if the N@z! Ideology never died, the group targeted just changed
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u/AdventurousGrass2043 Nov 08 '24
So you can criticize Germany but not Israel. Okay makes total sense (sarcasm).
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u/Skryuska Nov 08 '24
REVOKE CITIZENSHIP??? Holy fuck what is this? Nazi germa-oh god
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u/A-CAB Nov 08 '24
Say what you will about Germany, they know their brand identity and they’re sticking with it.
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u/Delusional_Gamer Nov 08 '24
After being pro-genocide, they overcorrected and ended up at pro-genocide again.
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 08 '24
Germans always need someone to hate, they’re generally very bitter people
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u/RealHabit2560 Atheist Nov 08 '24
Such actions will only fuel real anti semitism because it is officially and legally conflating the narrative Israel is Jewish and Jewish are Israel.
It is upto the Jews of the world to rise up against this. Non Jews will be subdued and shut down
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u/Expensive-Success301 Nov 07 '24
Beyond disgraceful but not suprising given their history. It seems they just can’t abandon their inherent fascist leanings.
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u/Admirable-Depth2511 Nov 07 '24
Is there really no other news source for this apart from Russia Today?
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 07 '24
Posted RT as they had the best summary in the share pics
https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-passes-controversial-antisemitism-resolution/a-70715643
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24
Never Again is Now: Protecting, Preserving, and Strengthening Jewish Life in Germany <-- you'll find articles using that search term, it's been picked up by novara media, dw and jpost.
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u/Admirable-Depth2511 Nov 08 '24
I was being sarcastic and trying to make a point that people should not use shady Kremlin propaganda sites pretending to be leftist media as sources when there’s enough alternatives out there
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24
To be fair there's not that much coverage considering the ramifications, I don't think any of the main stream British press have covered the story.
Anyway <Sarcasm> </Sarcasm> would make more sense.
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u/Accomplished_Egg_580 Nov 08 '24
Be careful brother, its only a storm let it pass. Once ceasefire happens, the world will acknowledge the crimes. Don't get yourself deported.
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u/panguardian Nov 08 '24
I don't understand Germany. On the German reddits I hear not a peep of protest. Dead quiet.
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u/waldleben Nov 08 '24
Source? Because I read a recently proposed "anti-antisemitism" bill that was in its own way terrible but not nearly this. Im german, i would have expected to have heard about this
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u/woodaman64 Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I’d like to know too. While I believe this is something the German government would do, I didn’t see any indication that they proposed these things.
Edit: I found a Middle East Eye article discussing the resolution but it only mentions how organizations that produce anti-Israel content will be barred from receiving public funding, nothing about citizenship.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/german-government-antisemitism-resolution-causes-outcry
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u/heatherHMP Roma/Jew (Seph/Ash), LGBTQIA+, Neurodivergent Nov 08 '24
You should show up to a protest visibly Jewish outside a government building (half joking as I don't want you to lose your citizenship). It would make them question who they're supporting over willing to harm their "fight against ant-semitism"
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 08 '24
We do do that. The police doesn’t falter to arrest us, confiscate our demo banners, shove beat and pepperspray us.. no matter how many Kippahs are around. They have also forbidden us to speak hebrew at protests before. Germany is germanning
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u/heatherHMP Roma/Jew (Seph/Ash), LGBTQIA+, Neurodivergent Nov 09 '24
You defiantly should be loud on social media about that, call them out and go public with this
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u/Mike-Rosoft Nov 08 '24
And observe that the slideshow doesn't include the actual text of the resolution (not to mention that a resolution, unlike an actually passed law, has no legal effect).
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u/x_ButchTransfem_x Nov 08 '24
Is there an actual link for this story or just screenshots from Instagram?
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 08 '24
Theres no link as red. Media is banned from German Instagram but you can easily find their website and many links have been shared in these comments…
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u/cookiemonZZta Nov 07 '24
As a german I can say this isn't true. Yes there is a wide spectrum of islamophic behavior in our politic. But no such resolution, neither is any of this as drasticly as presented. Also ist red. a media financed by russia. It was formaly called redfish/redstream and was a part of russia today. So this is in fact just russian bullshit propaganda
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u/sugar_rush_05 Nov 08 '24
You aren't the first German to deny. I still remember the German lady from the Holocaust documentary "We didn't know". You all know, you just lie about it.
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u/dustydancers Sephardic Nov 08 '24
Germans have that crazy tendency to downplay and straight up deny. Are you really saying things are not crazy? That the repression ppl face for speaking up for Palestine is not as drastic as presented? I’m here too and it’s in plain sight. Ppl just got arrested for attending a Saint Levant concert. For holding signs saying stuff like “Palestine will be free” and “not in my Jewish name”. Police stopping ppl for wearing Kuffiyeh. Minors get beaten by police and arrested. I’ve seen police spraying pepperspray towards mothers with strollers. Apartments get raided for Instagram posts. Cultural and social spaces defunded, shut down. People who speak up are fired. And this isn’t just hearsay I know way too many ppl affected by this kindof antidemocratic crackdown, I witness crazy repressions on a weekly basis.
Anyways here’s a deutsche welle article on it..
https://amp.dw.com/en/germany-passes-controversial-antisemitism-resolution/a-70715643
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u/sugar_rush_05 Nov 08 '24
Back to Fascism under the cloak of against antisemitism.
https://www.bundestag.de/dokumente/textarchiv/2024/kw45-de-juedisches-leben-1027708
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
We shall see, let's hope that it's just propaganda however I do doubt that is the case.
There's talk of an amendment to a curent law that revokes German citizenship of dual nationals who commit antisemitic crimes, now what do Germany class as antisemitic is important. ( Keyword: amendment )
I'm fairly certain this post is talking about "Never Again is Now: Protecting, Preserving and Strengthening Jewish Life in Germany", which has been covered by both the jpost and DW.
So I doubt it's just Russian bullshit propaganda as Germany are trying their hardest to protect Israel.
https://dserver.bundestag.de/btd/20/136/2013627.pdf <-- have a read for yourself.
** Edited ** As I don't want to cite misinformation.
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