Discussion
Are there any Israelis living in Israel in this sub?
Do you feel alone in your point of view, or do you have many friends that agree with you? What is it like to be in Israel for you? Were the protests that we saw in Israel just to bring the hostages home and for Netanyahu to resign, or also calling what's going on a genocide and to actually free Palestine? Do you, or do you know, anyone who refuses to participate in the IDF? I'm just very curious what it is like to live in Israel right now.
Grew up in Israel aged 5-16 (Not Jewish, I’m British born, but my dad was bought in to do a very specialised job in medical robotics)
but I can tell you one thing, I’m 31 now and I’ve been to 67 countries in my life and never, ever, have I visited a country where such paranoia, hatred - and I mean the poisonous, vicious type, racial supremacy, racism, arrogance and sense of entitlement was so widespread across so many ages, racial groups and socioeconomic groups as in Israel - and even more uniquely, it’s more intense among the young.
It’s also a country where I’ve never been so wary of the government, there is plenty of credible evidence and testimony out there now which suggests the state has engaged in false flag terror attacks on Jews across the Middle East to scare people into moving to Israel, thus cementing the claim, it’s secretly injected Ethiopian women with contraceptives to keep them from ‘breeding’, there’s very credible evidence and Israeli testimony of organ theft and the list goes on and on.
The fact is, half of what I’ve said here isn’t even really necessary - can you think of any other country on earth where the topic on a breakfast tv show would be whether prison guards should be allowed to sodomise illegally held captives? Because I certainly can’t, as I said, having visited 67 countries.
So, from someone who grew up there - whichever could be the saddest and most depressing answer to each of your questions, go with that.
I take no joy nor satisfaction in writing any of this by the way, I think it’s tragic that a people, against whom has been committed such evil, would see to pour that evil not just unto others, but themselves too.
I've never been to Israel but I've encountered many of its supporters, Israelis themselves, and seen how much support Israel gets. I've never seen another place that has so much hatred, racism, arrogance, and all the other things you've mentioned. Israel honestly makes Russia look normal (minus Putin of course), which says a lot. Russia is often called racist and it definitely has issues with it but Israel makes Russia look like a Californian liberal. Criticising Russia generally won't get you accused of anti-Christian sentiment or Russophobia, but the slightest criticism of Israel apparently makes you an anti-Semite and a racist. I even heard of a ZIONIST being called an anti-Semite once for apparently criticising Netanyahu! I want to think it's not most Israelis, I really do. But it's hard when 1 out of 100 Israelis I see are like this.
We gotta stop villainizing Israelis as a whole. Thousands of them are marching through the street demanding a ceasefire and bravely publicly criticizing netanyahu, going to jail for not joining the army. if your only encounters with israelis are zionists you're debating with, that's really not a fair assessment of all of them.
But they're not marching or criticising Netanyahu in order to stop the massacre, brutalisation & further dispossession of the Palestinians - they're doing so because they believe it's the best way to save the hostages. I suspect that if they believed that goal was best achieved by torching Palestinian babies they'd be fighting over themselves to join IDF flamethrower units.
I'm Israeli, yes it's pretty lonesome, I can't fully share my thoughts on the matter with anyone I know
I wasn't drafted yet for reserve but I plan to refuse, I'm trying to get a passport but it has proven to be difficult.
Most protesters don't protest the war itself but the government and the hostages situation, there is a group of jews and arabs who protest the war and gather aid for gazans and I participated in it a few times.
You are brave. You may feel lonely in Israel but we’re all with you from afar❤️I am sending you the best of luck w refusing & getting a passport… G*d bless you for participating in activism/resistance.
Thank you, there are definitely many in Israel who feel like me but can't really voice their opinions, so if you feel like there is no decency left worry not.
It's difficult for Israelis to show sympathy for the people who identify with those who killed their brothers and sisters.
I'm not as active in protests but gathering aid is always a nice peaceful help for the cause, so I try to do mostly that
I certainly try not to conflate the actions of the Israeli government and military with the whole Israeli populace, while also acknowledging that the militaristic culture is heavily dominant. I cannot pretend that if I was raised in Israel I would feel the same way that I do as a Jewish-American, because everyone is a product of their environment, it’s highly likely that I’d be as nationalistic and zionist as everyone else. It’s uncomfortable to think about but it’s just the truth.
You - all of you - who are intelligent and strong enough to think for yourselves are on the right side of history. It is because of your actions, even small ones, that future generations will know that not all Israelis stood by in blind support. ❤️❤️
As an American, I wish to god that my government cared what its people wanted. No amount of pressure will take these snakes out of the hands of the oligarchy that profits from these wars. We can't get healthcare and even if we push as hard as we can to get a good candidate in place they will either bend the knee or be sent packing. Al Franken was the last good man in power here.
Seems like I’m the only Israeli anti-Zionist in the comments who still lives here (edit: not anymore).
I’m very much alone here. No one of my friends or family is in any way not Zionist. And mind you, I’m from a very Liberal and pretty progressive community, and my friends are of course the most progressive of them all.
I hate it here, so I spend a lot of my time abroad. It really truly feels like can’t speak with ANYBODY. When meeting with friends, I can’t talk at all about anything that is in any way political. I tried a few times talking about this with my close family, and it was one of the worst experiences I ever had. So I shut up. With everyone.
The protests like you said, have nothing to do with the Palestinians. At all. Only the hostages and Bibi. Most support the genocide and think it was necessary, but only now think it’s time to stop it to get the hostages. When they get back, most won’t mind its continuation.
With that said, there are parts of the protests that are anti-war. Standing Together, at its core, is a good organization with good intentions that does great work. They moderate their rhetoric to get support from Zionists, but their politics are relatively good. It bugs me a little as an anti-Zionist, but I understand why they do it and I fully support them. Thanks to their size, they collect food for Gazans and protect humanitarian aid trucks.
And there is of course the anti-occupation bloc, which is a coalition of all leftist organizations in Israel, including the Radical Bloc, Hadash, Looking at the Occupation in the Eyes and much more. But we are a tiny minority there.
I do know refusers but only because I attend anti-war protests. I don’t know anybody else who refused. I do have friends and family members who (like myself) get themselves exempted from service, but (unlike myself) they did it not for any ideological reasons.
Living in Israel is shit, even for Jews, especially if you care about human lives. Don’t recommend. Even some of my Liberal Zionist friends are thinking about moving abroad (but they love their country too much).
Every time I meet an Israeli on this sub I actually feel myself get choked up because I really think it takes tremendous strength and intelligence to question all the propaganda you are living under. I would be so lonely and terrified in your position. You are really brave and I have so much respect for you… Fwiw at the end of last yr there were a handful of Israeli radicals active on here but most deleted their accounts because they were concerned about security/privacy.
Very interesting to hear your perspective. I’m in the US and dont know anyone in Israel anymore, the few people I knew already moved back to the states. Curious about your stance on renouncing citizenship and moving abroad eventually— genuinely asking. I ofc know moving isnt easy by any means.
That’s not something I advocate for. The way Jews came here is terrible and shouldn't have happened. But it did, so we must move forward in the form of cohabitation. No more Jewish state, but a single entity for all its inhabitants. Jews who oppose that can either learn to live here or move away.
Agreed. Israel isn't going to simply cease to exist but has to find some way to become a multi-ethnic, multi-faith democracy. It's the only way forward that doesn't result in more death.
No this makes perfect sense. Ultimately israeli jews will have to accept that its not in the cards to have a jewish majority state. This delusion has got a stronghold on liberal/mainstream jews here in the states too. They really cant let it go, but ultimately theyll have to face reality… its gonna be quite the reckoning. So yes, one state with equal human rights is the only outcome that
makes sense.
Forgive me, I’m not sure I understand the question. What do you mean by stance?
It was the ethnic cleansing of more than 800K from their home because of a nationalistic fantasy of a Jewish state in the place some of their ancestors originated from. If your question is if I condemn it, I do. I’m an anti-nationalist, and nothing can ever justify ethnic cleansing.
ok, sorry for not clarifying, and thank you for your answer!
what were the reasons for the Nakba, in your opinion?
(arab leaders supposedly telling people to leave, so they can kill all the Jews, as per the official Zionist version of events, or escaping the supposed atrocities (using "supposed" as I'm no scholar on the issue))
It sounds possible that they were told to leave to make it easier to attack only the Jews, and it is pretty understandable.
But I believe most either espaced the atrocities or the war in general or were driven out. And the driven-out part is not even debated, Israel recognises it too. Only the exact numbers are.
But I don’t think it matters as much as the deliberate decision by the Israeli government to not let them back in. What does it matter exactly why they left? They left/were expelled from a warzone, but when the war ended they were not allowed to come back. Their home was stolen and their possessions. Their whole lives were taken from them. This is the Nakba.
What was the economy like when you left? I read a couple of articles that made it sound like Israel's economy is collapsing, but I haven't heard anything on the ground. What's the unemployment like? Are businesses struggling? What do average Israelis think of the economy?
I'm not an Israeli or living in Israel, but feel pretty confident in the answers to some of these questions via people I know:
The majority of the anti-war protest movement in Israel is motivated by wanting the hostages back and a return to stable conditions; it's not much motivated by empathy with Palestinian rights. An Israeli Left that truly engages in activism for Palestinian liberation out of care for Palestinians does exist, but is much smaller, more heavily suppressed by the government and less visible.
Most pro-Palestine Israelis I know of who are politically engaged have made small networks of friends who share their views. There is an organization, Mesarvot, to support those who refuse to serve in the IDF.
OP might also be interested in this article on the underground anti-zionist punk rock scene in Israel. You can get past the paywall via archive.is :
The Israeli artists I typically listen to are classic Israeli musicians from the 1960s/70s like Arik Einstein, The Churchills, Shalom Hanoch, Esther Ofarim, The High Windows, Idan Raichel (more
modern), and Kaveret. But The White Screen are one of the only current Israeli musicians I will even listen to, let alone enjoy.
I am an Israeli, but I’ve not lived in Israel since moving to the states at age 13, which was almost 20 years ago. “Israeli” is just what one of my passports say, it doesn’t play a part in my identity. So I don’t feel qualified to answer any of your questions. However, I would encourage you to check out some Israeli anti-Zionist comrades, Elik and Alon. They do long-form video podcast, and if you have the time to listen, it is excellent and enlightening ⬇️
The past year has been rough, I'm grateful to have a partner and a couple good friends who see things like I do, but if I want to be mentally stable, and have a normal career and social life, I unfortunately need to stay relatively closeted when it comes my views on Zionism and the current ongoing massacre.
I take my part in activism and donate to when I can. Other than that life here is just horrid right now, you feel like a powerless grain of sand in a pool of injustice.
The protests that broke a couple of weeks ago were IMO a step in the right direction for Israeli society, witnessing mass protest for a ceasefire deal was pretty surreal. But unfortunately, it does not seem like that deep a change. There's still no realization of just how twisted our Zionist morals are. At the end of the day, most Israelis just don't see Palestinians as equal and fail to see how Zionism inherently breeds conflict. Most protestors are just mad at the current government for not considering saving the hostages and ending the war with minimal damage as an actual 'goal'. It is a legitimate thing to criticize the government for, but I see virtually no criticism of mass murder and starvation in Gaza or for the 500 dead Lebanese yesterday. The left wing blames the ultra-right settlers for all of Israel's problems, instead of seeing it as a symptom of a bigger issue, which is Jewish supremacy.
Definitely the hardest part for me is the distance I need to take from some of my close ones these days. I mean we're good and close, but I gave up trying to share what I'm really going through, most people think I'm brainwashed and fail to empathise. And it just leads to frustrating arguments. It's sad but it is what it is. I'm lucky enough to have a small circle of people who see things like me, and I try to talk about these things with them and not the "normies", even though I still love them.
Don't mind me, just hopping in to recommend checking out the Radical Bloc (@radical.bloc.tlv on insta), a left-wing activist organisation in Yaffa-Tel Aviv that have a lot of great posts and stories related to your questions.
A couple people from that org have been active on this sub before but all deleted their accounts. I think a lot of active dissidents are concerned about privacy and safety, I would be too
But think of poor Israel, who has been increasingly ostracized due to their wars. All they have now is their bravery, their wit, and the military and diplomatic support from a world superpower
This is what really grind my gears. Israel is a creature of history, geography, and political decisions made by its government and others in the region. I don’t condone its policies, but I can understand how they have come about. For them, it’s existential.
None of these factors apply to the United States. Yet its foreign policy towards Israel is appallingly one-sided, devoid of the principles espoused in its own founding documents. From a moral/ethical standpoint, I find its behaviour to be worse than Israel’s.
That's my country since the Cold War for you. It supports every democratic nation, and by "democratic nation" I mean any country that furthers the state's geopolitical interests.
First I will recommend that if you want to ask Israelis something, you shouldn’t ask it around 23:00–00:00 Israeli time (UTC+2) :)
Now I am not an anti-Zionist. The flair says post-Zionism, and I think that’s more or less where I am at, depending on the day and mood :) I am here because I find the opinions of some here interesting and challenging. But also because they are sometime misinformed and I offer my knowledge as an Israels and as a student of Middle East history. I participate in some discussion here and there, but I try to not cross the line because I know my opinions are different than those of most people here.
In general I would say that I would wish to live in a post-nationalist world (what I really want is a StarTrek world government, with Aliens if possible), including Jewish nationalism/Zionism, but I think we are not even close to a change on that front and the nation-state is not going anywhere. Till then I hold my criticism of Israel as a nation state, there is no reason for it to be the first to go (I have other issues with the state). I am open to making big changes in order to level the playing field and the sense of connection to the state the different minorities have in the country, mainly the Arab minority. That includes changes to some of our laws and to some symbols of the state (flag, anthem, etc.), offer support to bridge gaps, make sure children learn Arabic to a proper level, and that Arab kids learn Hebrew to a proper level and so on. But not the abolishment of Israel in favor of a Palestinian state. I am a two state solution person, mainly because I have zero faith in the survival of a single state. In my opinion it would be Lebanon 2.0, maybe even worse. I am not sure about the right of return and what should happen with it, but I'm kinda on the fence about it at the moment. It’s hard to condense everything into a few lines, but that’s the jist of it.
Do you feel alone in your point of view, or do you have many friends that agree with you?
I have a few friends that have similar views as mine. With others I disagree, with some more and some less, but that’s not an issue for me. I grew up in a religious environment and had many friends in school who aligned with the right. I was in Bnei Akiva, kinda like scouts for religious kids, and it is very right wing. I was there when Israel removed the settlement from Gaza, there were nonstop discussions about it and trying to mobilize us to go against it. In many ways it shaped my political view (Oct. 7 shaped and will continue to shape many views in Israel) and that’s how I ended up on the Israeli left (Meretz). So in general I am used to going against the stream, but I am no radical or revolutionary. My family is mostly center-left so there were no issues with them.
What is it like to be in Israel for you?
While I have problems with the state and with its people, all in all, after living abroad for more than half a decade, I am feeling fine back here in Israel, but it’s far from perfect. The grass has patches that are greener on the other side, but also some patches of dead grass. It’s definitely the only place I feel at home, though maybe if I had remained abroad for more years it could’ve changed. I still hope I will go back to Europe at some point, at least for a few years as it was a really fun and enriching experience.
Were the protests that we saw in Israel just to bring the hostages home and for Netanyahu to resign, or also calling what's going on a genocide and to actually free Palestine?
Mainly hostages. There were a few who call it a genocide, but that’s a small minority as far as I am aware. If there is any notion to “free Palestine” (probably “stop the occupation”) in a mainstream protest, i.e. the hostages protests, it is most likely that they are talking about a two state solution.
Do you, or do you know, anyone who refuses to participate in the IDF?
I don’t know anyone who did. I served for three years in the Armored Corps. Most of my time was spent in the WB. Hated it a lot, never been back to the WB since my service more than a decade ago.
I'm just very curious what it is like to live in Israel right now.
The only thing that comes to my mind is a conversation I had with one of my professors a couple of days ago. It’s amazing how humans adapt, and how quickly chaos could look normal. Or how quickly we can normalize extreme situations.
If anyone has more questions feel free to ask here, but I am more careful about my words here in public as I try to respect this community. If you want a more open discussion you can DM me.
I don't know if you already started it abroad, but in Israel I already hear people wish Shanah Tova (Happy new year), so I wish you one as well.
First, I appreciate your view, especially as a fellow Israeli.
A few questions tho.
I am open to making big changes in order to level the playing field and the sense of connection to the state the different minorities have in the country, mainly the Arab minority
So you're pro 2 states, and also pro redefining what a Jewish state means, curbing the supremacy aspect of it, if I understand correctly, I can appreciate this view, but I think it still leaves some inherent existential issues.
What if eventually down the line the Arab minority stops being a minority, and the Jewish people start being one? Will it make sense for the state to define itself a Jewish state with a non-Jewish majority? How will it maintain an equal rights society if one ethno-religious group is seen as more inherent to the country than other groups? Isn't that still supremacist at its core?
I have zero faith in the survival of a single state.
Why?
I hold my criticism of Israel as a nation state, there is no reason for it to be the first to go
How come you don't see the current ongoing massacre in the region, and generally the bloody forever war we've been in for 76 years as a good enough reason for Israel to be the first nation state to dissolve? Is mass starvations and tens of thousands of dead children not pressing enough?
I am an Israeli living in Israel and I follow this sub to gain and understand an additional perspective in this conflict. My personal perspective, I must say, is not aligned with most of what I see here but I think there are a lot of different beliefs one can take and are totally valid... And there are some takes here that are legitimate ones in my eyes.
In any case there is a rule against debates and I remember that too, but I think I can answer some of your questions.
First of all yes, I feel alone in my point of view but in a different sense than you think. I agree with Zionism (and I won't debate this) but large swathes of Israeli society have become totally irrational in my eyes, and most importantly detached from each other. You have "camps" or "tribes" fighting each other. I honestly try to use my own head and I see faults in every camp, but there are a lot of people who are completely bind to a lot of assumptions and react as offended when you point those out. For this reason I feel alone. Most people will really fight for a political position that has become a part of their identity ("deal now", "non-Bibists are bad", "religious students shouldn't be drafted", "Bibi is bad", ....). Think about US political polarization but deeper and with more "poles".
So yes even with some good friends or family I feel deep disagreements and I know that they are not repairable on a rational level so there is little use talking about them. But fortunately I have also good friends with whom I can have productive conversations. As an aside many people have been personally affected by the war. I know that, basically, if I blame of hatred a person who has seen their friends die I won't go anywhere. In other words for those people it is easier for me to detach from their views, if they are extreme, because I am aware of their experience.
Being in Israel for me is not terribly fun now. Death is nearer than it used to be in the past. The economy is dire. Society is fragmented. And I have very little trust in the government. Still I believe that antisemitism would be difficult to endure abroad and I have even less trust in the ability of most people in Western and Middle Eastern countries to treat me fairly once they know I am Jewish. So this feels a place where I can be myself and feel at home at a deeper level than elsewhere.
About the protests, they are another manifestation of emotion and tribalism in my eyes. They are quite counterproductive but I can understand the people. But to answer your question most people protesting is convinced this will help to get the hostages and bring Bibi now but not out of criticism of the IDF action. However a minority of protesters will embrace a leftist antiwar attitude and be critical of the nationalistic spirit they think this whole operation is a manifestation of. A tiny tiny minority of Israeli Jews and sizeable portion of Israeli Arabs will call this a "genocide". About "freeing Palestine" this is a complex thing as it means different thing to different people. Probably in the sense you think of it will be embraced by those same people. But once you include people who would accept a two state solution or would recognize that, among other things, there is some oppression against Palestinians to correct, even of the security is more important now, you are speaking of a sizeable portion of Jews too
I know a lot of people who dodged the draft. Some of them for egotistical reasons. Some because they believe studying Torah or being a pious woman trumps everything else. No one because of moral issues of Zionism itself. There could be, I just don't know them. However there is a lot of anger against the perceived excessive restraint of the army and there is a lot of anger against the courts and the idea that the courts could punish, for example, a soldier who kills a terrorist after neutralizing them. Currently those people, backed by high level government ministers, are very vocal and are the most significant challenge of the army
By the way, as someone visibly and proudly jewish, I have encountered truly minimal amounts of antisemitism both in America and in Europe. There are of course incidents here and there, but at least I don't have to worry about rockets coming down on me. I'm also often in very, very pro-palestinian and anti-zionist spaces.
I second this. I’ve encountered a few moments of anti-semitism since I’ve left Israel, but even while they were happening they paled in comparison to the intensity of being around Israelis.
The Holocaust jokes you hear in Israel are orders of Magnitude more antisemitic than anything I encountered elsewhere.
Fourthing. The only cases of antisemitism I've encountered firsthand have been from white conservative Christians, absolutely nothing among my comrades from the left.
Eh I’ve gotten it from all sides. I had to let go of a few leftist friends following Oct 7 for not understanding Jewish, and even Israeli, does not mean Zionist. I’ve also been called slurs by Zionists.
I grew up in the Deep South so I was called slurs before I knew what they meant. Since I’ve left the Deep South I’ve definitely still encountered blatant anti semitism. Where I live now, on the liberal west coast, has had an influx of antisemitic campaigns, most recently, before Oct 7, an instagram account ‘exposing’ Jewish students at a high school and a flier campaign claiming COVID was created by Jewish people as part of an agenda. The flier campaigns have continued to spread. I also know my parents have both experienced similarly throughout the US. My uncle, as a child in the Deep South, would wake up screaming because he thought the KKK were after that. I think looking more “Jewish” in areas where that is more uncommon means we’ve gotten to see more of that, but I definitely know from my entire existence on this earth that it’s not relegated to conservative Christians.
Lots of the jokes are holocaust related, probably because Israeli kids spend a lot of time in school learning about the Holocaust. And naturally kids will mock what is shoved down their throats by adults.
But Israelis are not funny like the American Ashkenazi community is (when we talk
about “Jewish Humor” it is basically diasporic Ashkenazi Humor from Eastern Europe and the US, and I have no problem saying this as an Arab-Jew :) )
…so you get stupid jokes that are just offensive for the sake of being so, without any real humor. For example-
-“Why did the air at Auschwitz smell sweet?……. Because they were burning all the diabetics that day.” 😑
“Why did the air at Auschwitz smell sweet?……. Because they were burning all the diabetics that day.”
The term "reverse gallows humor" just gets more and more apt for these people. It's anti-humor for any normal person.
Like, you can appreciate the subversion of expectations at play in the joke "My grandfather died in the Holocaust. He fell out of a guard tower."; it's edgelord humor but I also laughed at it the first time I heard it.
But the diabetics thing? That joke's as pathetic as their chopped salad.
Ahh I understand. Thank you. It makes sense I guess! Kinda how many kids in the USA love making 9/11 memes.
Thanks for providing so much context!
You have many great points! Specially about Jewish humor. For some reason I assumed the humor would be similar given how many Ashkenazi Jews in Israel were the ones mainly in power & had influence specially at the beginning. They are also a big group from what I see online (1/3 of all Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi)
For some reason I assumed the humor would be similar given how many Ashkenazi Jews in Israel were the ones mainly in power & had influence specially at the beginning.
There has never been a single worldwide Ashkenazi culture. For example what most people think of as Ashkenazi humor, while influenced by European Yiddish humor, is really from early-mid 20th century New York. The same is true for other fixtures of Ashkenazi culture in America (Jewish deli, modern bagels, religious traditions, political leanings, personality stereotypes, etc.). Proto-Israeli culture developed at the same time and, despite shared origins and some similarities, the two can be seen as separate parallel tracks.
Israeli culture is also herrenvolk culture. It is specifically the culture of the brutal and barbaric occupier, and these peoples are always mirthless and humorless.
I’ve heard that the most horrific Holocaust jokes are told by Israelis. Which tracks since I the ones I’ve heard since leaving have been quite tame.
I won’t repeat them as a joke here (I’m embarrassed of having laughed at them as a child, and have no interest in repeating them) but can offer that the two jokes I remember all the way through feature the ovens and the rendering of Jewish bodies for soap (that one in particular doesn’t translate, as it relies on an Israeli idiom).
I haven’t watched any Larry David so can’t compare. It’s inter-generational-trauma gallows-humor.
I have my theories on why. But I’m not trying to start a fight 🤷🏽♀️
Please don’t apologize. I’ve also heard the soap jokes but from non Jews and it was also during childhood (I always wondered where the soap rumor started)
I think it’s a trauma response? I can’t say since I’m not Israeli you know? I’m curious what you think the theory is (only share if confortable I’m just very curious) I’m not saying it’s bad or good. Also don’t worry I would never debate just ask questions since you know more about this and experienced it.
I’ve also heard some dark jokes from places that had a hard recent past like the balkans. So it’s not an uncommon occurrence.
Larry David is the guy behind Seinfeld & Curb your Enthusiasm. He does some good jokes you should check him out. I think he has even brought up Palestine/Israel (2000s) in a good/fair light from what I can remember. I find him hilarious.
Still I believe that antisemitism would be difficult to endure abroad and I have even less trust in the ability of most people in Western and Middle Eastern countries to treat me fairly once they know I am Jewish.
Once they know you are Jewish or once they know you’re Israeli? Because I am Jewish and live in the US and am treated fine and so are the other Jewish people I know. You do know that Jews have been living all over the world, especially the US, perfectly free and great lives since WWII. And there are many Israeli people who live here too who are doing fine and don’t have to deal with anti-semitism. So are you sure that that isn’t something you were just taught to believe living in your bubble of israel?
I do feel like Israel’s recent behavior is changing this though. Now it is making the world less safe for Jewish people, but this is Israel’s own fault.
Jewish people are not safe where I’m living in USA. People recently have been hiding their Jewish identity because of this, not wearing their magen david or kippahs. They don’t speak up against the antisemitism in fear of being the next target.
I really really hate that it has come to this, but considering you are a Zionist (it’s quite clear from your post history), it is difficult to take your anecdote about antisemitism seriously.
And I hate that I feel compelled to tell another Jew that their sense of fear and oppression is not objectively valid. I 100% trust that this is indeed the way you and other members of your local community feel. But the past year has shown us countless episodes where Zionist Jews have claimed to experience antisemitism, when in reality it was just their deeply held Zionist beliefs that were being ostracized or ridiculed. And there are countless events where Zionist Jews have fabricated stories of randomly being assaulted on college campuses or while just randomly encountering pro-Palestinian demonstrations. When in reality, every single one of these events were not random, and occurred because the Jewish Zionist made the decision to engage or get combative with protestors, enflaming an already tense situation.
I live in Seattle, one of the most ‘left-wing’ cities in the US. And I also happen to live in the same neighborhood where the so-called anarchist takeover “CHOP” took place during the 2020
BLM protests… I wear my kippa at restaurants, I wear it on my way to and from Torah study at shul, and I wear it on my way to and from Kabbalat Shabbat and Saturday morning services. I also always wear a Magen David necklace and a chai necklace on the outside of my t-shirt. I have never ever experienced antisemitism. I have never ever felt afraid to be visibly Jewish in a town with an abundance of pro-Palestinian activism and anti-Zionist attitudes.
There have been instances of antisemitic related vandalism in my city. There was a local synagogue that was covered in anti-Zionist/anti-Israel graffiti last year around thanksgiving, and I would certainly consider that to be antisemitic. I have also experienced instances of antisemitism during rallies and within certain organizations. But it was always out of lack of education or perspective, not malice. And it often led to a productive conversation
Most Jews are safer in the USA and Europe than Israel that’s a constant war zone. Sure they are anti semitism cases but they are also plenty of other POC that have to deal with racism.
My point is that people might always have a prejudice against you for some reason but when it comes to safety based on numbers the USA and Europe are safer!
Oh for sure. It seems Israelis are fed propaganda about antisemitism abroad, making them think Israel is the only place for them, when really it's the least safe for them. That's a typical cult tactic.
But once you include people who would accept a two state solution or would recognize that, among other things, there is some oppression against Palestinians to correct, even of the security is more important now, you are speaking of a sizeable portion of Jews too
I’m not sure what you mean here. Read it a few times over and I can’t quite tell what you’re saying.
I hope you will continue to visit and contribute to this sub, it’s actually very helpful to everyone here to see your POV in a format where debate is not allowed, as it allows for understanding instead of mindless arguing.
I would encourage you to take a look at some of the anti-Zionist Israelis that I have posted on my account. When I was a Zionist, I was still open minded like yourself, but I honestly had a difficult time listening to anyone critical of Zionism and the state of Israel who was not Israeli. It’s difficult for those who are not Israeli to understand our experience actually living this conflict. But spending time around interesting people like Dan Ben-Yishai, who is a former IDF commanding officer turned anti-Zionist academic at Hebrew U, really expanded my consciousness. I would highly encourage to watch his three video essays in the links bellow ⬇️
However there is a lot of anger against the perceived excessive restraint of the army and there is a lot of anger against the courts and the idea that the courts could punish, for example, a soldier who kills a terrorist after neutralizing them
What about the 16000 children the Israeli army has killed since Oct 7, are they considered terrorists?
I believe that antisemitism would be difficult to endure abroad
I'm married to a non-Jew, most of my friends aren't Jewish, and everyone in my life knows I'm Jewish. I have literally never experienced Antisemitism in person. I grew up in Toronto, and I'm convinced it's the safest place in the world for Jews. I've attended numerous pro-Palestine rallies clearly marking myself as a Jew. Not only was I completely safe, but enthusiastically welcomed.
Those are also the last times I remember more anti semitic jokes. Maybe it was middle school or the times (early 2000s) or maybe kids are just terrible and learning how far they can push their boundaries
Not sure if this counts as the "debating Zionism" you are unwilling to do, but curious what Zionism means to you, specifically.
Do you believe Palestinian refugees displaced from inside what is now Israel in their lifetimes, or any subset of them, should be granted the right to return as equal citizens?
Regardless of whether you think the Arab minority in Israel (inside the green line) already has equal rights under Israeli law, do you think it should have equal rights?
I appreciate your presence actually. I almost never encounter zionists who are at all willing to engage with the fact that there are Jews - educated, spiritual/observant, non self-loathing Jews - who disagree with them. Prior to WW2, Zionist and non-Zionist Jews had robust debates and tolerated each other — by toleration I mean that it would not be normal for someone in the other faction to disallow or force a dissenter out from a synagogue or other community, they would not accuse the dissenter of not really being Jewish —practicing incorrectly or being overly reformist/secular/Marxist sure, but not saying “You are not a Jew” or any of the violent threats a lot of zionists make. When I say toleration, I honestly mean tolerating a debate, because today the goal from the other side in these conversations is to deny and erase the existence of the other side, and tell you that since you don’t agree, your own Jewishness is invalid and you deserve to be cut off from your community (often worse “Go to Gaza” “Kapo” etc).
Now, in most Jewish communities, expressing any contrary opinion is basically interpreted as equivalent to throwing a nuclear bomb made out of swastikas between you and everyone else. You cannot get most people to even admit that it’s an actual phenomenon, let alone try and genuinely understand where we’re coming from. I frequently notice lurkers on here from more mainstream Jewish subs who basically seem to be wanting to ask good faith questions and it actually heartens me even though I disagree.
Yeah, that's one of the things about Zionism that's the most antithetical to Judaism in my eyes. Judaism is a religion built on debate and disagreement - anyone who's ever looked at a single page of Talmud could tell you that much. But, like every other ultranationalist movement, Zionism demands ideological conformity. There's no room for disagreement anymore.
For centuries, Zionist and non-Zionist Jews had healthy, robust debates and tolerated each other.
There was only around 60 years between the founding of Political Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel, with the earlier decades being a time of highly polarized and tumultuous debate among Jews worldwide.
You are correct. I misspoke and was not specific enough. I have edited your selection to the following.
Prior to WW2, Zionist and non-Zionist Jews had robust debates and tolerated each other — by toleration I mean that it would not be normal for someone in the other faction to disallow or force a dissenter out from a synagogue or other community, they would not accuse the dissenter of not really being Jewish —practicing incorrectly or being overly reformist/secular/Marxist sure, but not saying “You are not a Jew” or any of the violent threats a lot of zionists make. When I say toleration, I honestly mean tolerating a debate, because today the goal from the other side in these conversations is to deny and erase the existence of the other side, and tell you that since you don’t agree, your own Jewishness is invalid and you deserve to be cut off from your community (often worse “Go to Gaza” “Kapo” etc).
Your assertion that this debate was not very long actually is my contention. When I wrote this, I was actually specifically thinking about Naomi Klein’s writing, in which this topic is titled ‘A Debate Cut Down Midsentence.’ Giving screen shots of passages but here’s the full pdf excerpt from her book — I highly recommend reading the entire thing, and also the full book, it was just released in paperback
(will reply with the rest of the relevant passages)
Thank you for the insight and answering the question! Despite feeling prickly over disagreements, I can appreciate that we're both just trying to comprehend how so many people believe something entirely different about the same sitaution. No matter how much I disagree with Zionism, I sincerely hope you and all your loved ones stay safe.
@roaming.pencil on instagram is israeli and lives there. she’s talked about this stuff before and would likely be happy to chat with you via dm, she’s very sweet.
I am a strong supporter of Israel on a major US Campus where I'm in the minority. My minority status is something I'm comfortable with. Moreover, it has not stifled my efforts to bridge the chasm between Israeli and Palestinian students.
Nevertheless, I'm truly bothered by IDF's strategy of weaponizing a common electronic device, in this case a rudimentary pager.
As someone who resides in Silicon Valley, where many believe technology is a liberating force, a genuine tool for spreading democracy, the thought that a PC or a Cell Phone might become a deadly weapon is truly scary.
Is it possible that PC Labs in our local elementary school might have to be evaluated as a potential weapon of mass destruction? What a disturbing idea.
I'm sure the IDF masterminds behind the exploring pagers were not thinking about the longterm implications of their weaponization efforts, but now that we have seen thier efforts in practice, who do you think we should do?
There’s no shutting down… I’m totally fine with Zionists coming here in good faith. I only came to reject Zionism after anti-Zionists gave me space and compassion.. This is just not a thread about what’s happening in Lebanon, and I’d say the same to any regular anti-Zionist account.
This post is trying to encourage anti-Zionist Israelis currently in Israel to provide their perspective. Its a valuable perspective we rarely get to see
I’m also surprised and scared about the beeper explosion. From what I read Israel took over the production line and somehow made it blow up? Like there was no bomb that was implanted.
I feel if this was any other country airport security around the world would have freaked out.
How did people in Silicon Valley feel about it all? Many people I know from the industry are quite progressive but still very pro Zionism without understanding what or how it looks today in Israel /Palestine
A tangent upon a tangent, but all technology is created by humans and subject to their flaws. I find it so frustrating when people only see the potential for AI, the internet, devices, even language to liberate us...
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u/noctenaut Sep 24 '24
Grew up in Israel aged 5-16 (Not Jewish, I’m British born, but my dad was bought in to do a very specialised job in medical robotics)
but I can tell you one thing, I’m 31 now and I’ve been to 67 countries in my life and never, ever, have I visited a country where such paranoia, hatred - and I mean the poisonous, vicious type, racial supremacy, racism, arrogance and sense of entitlement was so widespread across so many ages, racial groups and socioeconomic groups as in Israel - and even more uniquely, it’s more intense among the young.
It’s also a country where I’ve never been so wary of the government, there is plenty of credible evidence and testimony out there now which suggests the state has engaged in false flag terror attacks on Jews across the Middle East to scare people into moving to Israel, thus cementing the claim, it’s secretly injected Ethiopian women with contraceptives to keep them from ‘breeding’, there’s very credible evidence and Israeli testimony of organ theft and the list goes on and on.
The fact is, half of what I’ve said here isn’t even really necessary - can you think of any other country on earth where the topic on a breakfast tv show would be whether prison guards should be allowed to sodomise illegally held captives? Because I certainly can’t, as I said, having visited 67 countries.
So, from someone who grew up there - whichever could be the saddest and most depressing answer to each of your questions, go with that.
I take no joy nor satisfaction in writing any of this by the way, I think it’s tragic that a people, against whom has been committed such evil, would see to pour that evil not just unto others, but themselves too.