r/JewsOfConscience • u/shrinky-dinkss • Aug 30 '24
Discussion "We Will Dance Again" at burning man
I'd like people's opinions on this because I really don't know where I stand.
I lost a good friend of mine at the Nova festival and I was devastated. I've had time to accept it and I'm in a better place now but I know the anniversary of her killing is going to be really hard.
But at the same time I'm completely aware that many Zionists use the Nova tragedy as leverage against the Palestinians to victimize Israel, when in reality Palestinians have been greatly disproportionately harmed in comparison to Israelis, and the Israeli army has significantly more lethal power
You may have heard the burning man festival will have a venue commemerating the people that were killed at the nova festival with a big thing that says "We will dance again" and obviously its causing a big outrage on both sides per usual.and i feel really conflicted about it because on one hand a lot of people perceive events focused on the lives lost at nova to be propoganda trying to down play Israel's response after 10/7. But on the other hand the jewish community is small enough that a large amount of us are connected in some way with someone that died and the desire to commemorate them on the anniversary at another musical festival feels innocent and healing for those with the right intentions. I kind of want to go along with other people that knew her because i feel like itd be a good space for me to be in during that time but also I know its bound to receive a lot of backlash that also comes from people with good intentions
I'm writing this posts without ulterior motives and I'm asking you to please leave your opinions thoughtfully and without aggression. Please don't tell me I'm victimizing myself because boohoo your evil israeli friend died well think of all the palestinian children. I fully acklowledge what the IDF is doing to Palestine is far worse than what Jewish people are going through. But my friend was an innocent progressive left wing 23 year old and I could really use some validation in belief that I'm allowed to mourn her fully without it being harmful to the free palestine movement.
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u/ladypoopsmcgee Aug 31 '24
You absolutely should honor your grief and your memory of your friend. She was young, and being at an arts and music festival like burning man will be healing perhaps, though I hope it isn’t accidentally triggering. But I have to say as a Burner myself, I am bitter at Burning Man for banning an art piece honoring Palestine (from the river to the sea) so I am cynical about Burns now and the censorship they enact that enables genocide complicity. With that being said, you’re one person in this vast infinite pool of messy life, as was your friend, and right here right now your friend’s life deserves to be commemorated.
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u/actsqueeze Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
Okay well knowing they banned a pro-Palestine art piece certainly changes things.
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u/ladypoopsmcgee Sep 01 '24 edited Sep 01 '24
This was the removed art proposal:
There was a outcry / petition by some Zionist burners and the organizers apologized for the anti-semitism of it
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u/CheapVegan Sep 03 '24
I'm a burner who didn't goto the burn this year in part because the conflict brought out a terrible side of my camp. The final straw was a conversation about this art piece where my campmates could not respect different opinions and publically insulted each other without any intervention from leadership... It was really heartbreaking and disappointing to me. So much so that I left my camp and didn't feel genuine to go this year. I've gone since 2015 otherwise.
I've been curious to know how this appeared (or didn't) on playa. Especially at the temple. I'm also a Temple Guardian and I was wondering how they were trained for this very sensitive year where many people with different perspectives would be mourning.
Did anyone goto the burn and see any of this art? Or see any memorials at the temple?
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u/amzngrc9 Sep 07 '24
I was there! The "We Will Dance Again" piece was beautiful, and definitely felt more focused on the individual lives lost rather than anything Zionist.
The temple was...interesting. I saw several memorials around for Nova victims. People also printed out pages with thousands of Palestinian names (seeing them in tiny font on pages and pages was very sobering) and many names were painted on the temple walls. There was also an American/Palestinian flag with the peace sign connecting them, and "I'm sorry" written in multiple languages on the American side. Unfortunately, someone put a bunch of bumper stickers with #bringthemhomeNOW next to many of the Palestinian memorials and someone wrote "End Terror" on the Palestinian flag (later crossed out). There were other instances of Zionist "overwriting", and temple definitely felt more political than usual.
On Friday night at sunset, we held a vigil for Gaza at temple. Right up until the moment the vigil started, a large group of Jewish folks were singing with Israeli flags, which was disappointing. I'm glad they at least stopped once the Palestinian speakers started. The vigil was absolutely beautiful and heartwrenching, and was one of my favorite moments at the Burn.
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u/GlitteringPotato1346 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 30 '24
I mean, I’d say the atmosphere of the event really determines its character.
Just be there and contribute to a constructive atmosphere where the lost are remembered instead as having their bodies used as pawns in geopolitics.
Also the anniversary of a tragedy is the most likely memorial to attract a less politically motivated crowd.
It’s ok to make it about yourself a little, this is about if you personally want to do something in light of the events of the past year (both personal and global)
I don’t have any personal stake in the conflict (I just don’t like others suffering I guess💀) just wanted to provide a stranger on the internet support :)
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u/Lumpy_Importance2236 Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
Oh I am so sorry you lost your friend at the Nova festival, may her memory be a blessing! My Egyptian grandmother raised my mother in the movement, and me in turn so I’ll tell you what my mother would say to me (so you know it’s ok): go mourn your friend. You knew them better than strangers on the internet, it and sounds like you feel like you need to be with your community to begin to heal and remember your friend. It doesn’t help you or anyone else to hide away when you are in pain like this. I know others might have a different opinion and this is my own, but I know many people who would agree with me too.
Burning man is a strange place that can be spiritual at times, and I know the Temple is always a good place to go as well to remember your friend. I wish I had made the trek when I lost one of my good friends who was a Burner-I would’ve loved to hear stories and laugh with people I knew he loved, and who loved him. Going or not going to the memorial will not stop what’s going on, or change what’s happening. But you need to do this for yourself and the memory of your friend. You can be with your Jewish friends AND still care deeply for the Palestinians as well.
In life we are rarely afforded the opportunity to make the perfect choice, and humans are fallible. If anyone gives you grief, choose to remember your friend. Those who don’t get it never will. Yes, what happened on October 7th was awful and tragic in many ways, and I hope your friend is remembered for the beautiful person she was, and not what the Israeli government wants to use their memories for. I wish you the best if you choose to go, and that it helps you on your healing journey.
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u/Marsipanflows Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I feel like the process of mourning and healing is important no matter the context, and it's something I've also been going through on this - a lot of us are one or zero degrees of separation from people who were at the Nova festival, and a lot of us are also one or zero degrees of separation from Palestinians who've been killed.
I don't know if the event you're talking about will be a good space for mourning, simply because of all the other issues around Burning Man, specifically that they're censoring some pro-Palestine works as someone already mentioned here.
Frankly, being a musician myself, a lot of the music industry's response to what's happening feels unhelpful and concerning to me. No matter what we're going through here in terms of mourning, there seems to be this one sided focus that presents Israeli culture as part of a superior "Judeo-Christian"/Western culture above the "uncivilized" Middle East - having that framing is not at all helpful for mourning or processing anything that's been happening, and of course it also freaks me out as a Jew, it reminds me of all the ways we've been persecuted by the West and how these same methods are being used to persecute our Palestinian cousins.
In fact, any White gentiles I can think of in the industry who have cut ties with me for being an anti-Zionist Jew have always been pretty openly racist themselves - and all of this makes me feel even more iffy about a lot of the attempts to create space through music for mourning anyone lost on any side of this conflict - I've been fortunate to be part of some projects to materially benefit Palestinians, but in terms of mourning and processing what's happening, it feels like we're kind of on our own. I know some artists who do a moment of silence or dedicate a song, which I do sometimes - other than that, it's kind of being neglected. Hopefully we can make that change.
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u/Spankingworks Jewish Aug 31 '24
I’m so sorry you lost someone you loved. I lost a dear friend there too, and it’s extremely painful to imagine how her last moments were. Yet, after witnessing the extreme manipulation and the genocidal aftermath, I’m skeptical of all “innocent” motives. I mean, did we not just watch a man burn himself alive to raise awareness about the ongoing genocide? Is he going to be commemorated in burning man? How about the 20 thousand murdered children?
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
Neither Bushnell nor the 20k Palestinian children murdered by IOF will be commemorated by the board of directors that runs Burning Man.
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u/IWantFries21 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 30 '24
Full disclosure that I don't know much about this exhibit, and I'm neither Jewish nor Arab. But in my opinion, you lost someone dear to you in a very awful way. There's no denying that. And I imagine your grief has been strong. If you think attending the exhibit would be a nice way to remember and honor her, then go.
One idea I suggest is finding a fundraiser for Palestinians, whether an aid org or a GoFundMe, and donating to them whatever amount you paid for the festival ticket.
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u/touslesmatins Non-Jewish Ally Aug 30 '24
I guess I'll be a dissenting voice. If your friend truly was a progressive person, she would not want her death used in this manner that erases Palestinian suffering and frankly makes light of 10/7. "We will dance again", in the midst of all that's going on, feels really flippant. Burning Man has been jumping the shark anyway, but this seems like such a bad take. You can find ways to mourn the individual you lost without contributing to the centering of 10/7 and the erasure of the genocide. In other words, I think the best way to mourn your friend is to mourn the person, not mourn her as part of a headline or a talking point.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
I genuinely don’t understand this sentiment, that mourning or memorializing Oct 7th is ‘erasing’ the genocide, or that people who’s family or friends were murdered less than a year ago cannot participate in memorials centered on the people they lost. Do people really believe that it’s one or the other?
Agree about burning man tho, I’m surprised every year that people still want to go.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
They didn't say not to mourn.
They said not to participate in some corporation's politically-motivated action.
When a popular venue like Burning Man (which is run by a non-profit corporation with a board of directors) makes a choice like this, it's not done off-the-cuff. It's not spontaneous or done in a rush.
They know at least 40K Palestinians have been killed and Gaza is reduced to rubble, etc.
There is zero reciprocity and constant censorship so people should nit-pick everything.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
Eh. I’m not going to tell someone mourning not to attend a memorial for that person with their mutual friends who are also mourning them. I just glanced at what the memorial entails and I don’t see anything dehumanizing to Palestinians or even any Israeli flags. I expect OP can use their own judgment if something feels wrong. It’s obviously not BDS complaint since many it’s co-created by Israelis who survived and the family and friends of those who died.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I’m not going to tell someone mourning not to attend a memorial for that person with their mutual friends who are also mourning them.
Well, he is asking for advice, not 'tell me to go to this thing'.
I just glanced at what the memorial entails and I don’t see anything dehumanizing to Palestinians or even any Israeli flags.
There's nothing about Gaza there.
When Kamala Harris is interviewed by a pro-Israel hack like Dana Bash, and calls out alleged rape from one side, but says nothing about the far-more substantiated allegations made by Palestinians and literally recorded on surveillance cameras - that is still dehumanization by omission.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
Great, and my advice is that if OP wants to go they can go. They don’t need our permission to go somewhere they clearly want to go and they can figure out when they’re there whether or not it is an okay place for them. Thought tbh, I don’t really think anyone should go to burning man.
And I’m not surprised that a memorial for victims of Oct 7th organized by Israelis mourning people they lost on Oct 7th is not about Gaza?
Whenever we reply to each other it really feels quite escalated. I don’t think I have that with any other frequent user on this sub.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
They don’t need our permission
Of course not, and I'm not saying what they should do anyways.
And I’m not surprised that a memorial for victims of Oct 7th organized by Israelis mourning people they lost on Oct 7th is not about Gaza?
That's not the point.
It's like wondering why the Israeli consulate on some X day between 10/7 and now hasn't had a memorial for Palestinians in Gaza. I wouldn't expect them to do that.
But if someone asked in our community whether they should go to the consulate for an event honoring 10/7 victims or w/e else - then I can offer advice.
Since the person asking would be addressing our community so one can assume they are generally anti-Zionist and/or at least have a critical perspective on this issue.
So my criticisms of the event are catered for the the individual who may have similar political sensibilities and is posing a moral question.
They are not posing the question, 'why is this event the way that it is?' - which would have nothing to do with any of us having to consider attending the event. There would be no potential moral conflict.
Whenever we reply to each other it really feels quite escalated. I don’t think I have that with any other frequent user on this sub.
You called me a Hamas sympathizer.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
Right because you pasted like 8 paragraphs with stuff bolded from that UN report that I had just shared and recommend people read and I had said that I felt comfortable saying that Hamas raped due to things like
Four female bodies found at Nahal Oz outpost were partially or completely undressed, two of which were isolated in separate rooms, showing signs of physical abuse and sexual violence.
and
the Commission documented cases indicative of sexual violence perpetrated against women and men in and around the Nova festival site, as well as the Nahal Oz military outpost and several kibbutzim, including Kfar Aza, Re’im and Nir Oz. It collected and preserved digital evidence, including images of victims’ bodies displaying indications of sexual violence, a pattern corroborated by independent testimonies from witnesses. Reliable witness accounts obtained by the Commission describe bodies that had been undressed, in some incidents with exposed genitals. The Commission received reports and verified digital evidence concerning the restraining of women, including hands and sometimes feet of women being bound, often behind the victims’ backs, prior to their abduction or killing. Additionally, the Commission made assessments based on the position of the body, for example images displaying legs spread or bent over, and signs of struggle or violence on the body, such as stab wounds, burns, lacerations and abrasions.
And you didn’t feel like there is strong enough evidence to say that there was rape and then I expressed that I couldn’t understand why someone would want to defend them in that arena.
To be clear, I don’t think there is anything wrong with being a Hamas sympathizer, I am quite sympathetic to Hamas.
I am genuinely sorry that we got off on the wrong foot, I know you were just coming back to mod this sub, which I think you do a good job of, and you clearly care a lot for the community. Hope one day we will not be so at each others throats.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
You couch my citations in a pejorative context as if I hadn't read the report - while simultaneously pasting in excerpts from the report which you draw the wrong conclusions from.
You didn't read the report.
They explicitly conclude they couldn't verify the claims of rape (one of the reason being, Israel BLOCKED their investigation), let alone mass rape - as they say later they couldn't verify claims of sexual mutilation etc. nor the claim that militants had instructions to do so.
What you chose to do was generalize the UN's terminology of 'sexual violence' to include 'mass rape'.
The UN defines sexual violence in a particular way, but treats the accusation of sexual violence separate from the explicit claim of rape.
You didn't read the Patten report either, or else you'd know that Patten noted that many so-called witnesses recanted or dialed back the tenor of their testimonies.
I'm happy to debate anyone on this, because I can cite the report confidently.
Can you? You didn't last time. You just called me a 'Hamas sympathizer' repeatedly.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
I think you must be conflating me with another user. I’ve never claimed mass rape (because I have never believed that there was systemic sexual violence due to orders from Hamas) and I’ve never used the term sympathizer. The only time I had used the term sympathizer before this thread was over 3 years ago in another context. The 1 comment you banned me for was the only time I ever even got close to saying you were defending Hamas, which I put in context in my previous comment.
Again, I have read the report, there is no part of the report that conflicts with the parts I’ve pasted above. Clearly we read it with different eyes.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 30 '24
You are allowed to mourn your friend, and I think some of the anti-zionists have gone a bit too far in their mocking of the Nova massacre (and Oct 7 massacre in general). I love the Bad Hasbara podcast but the episode where they mock the festival and psytrance was so cringe, but sadly isn't too far off from other rhetoric I've heard and seen.
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u/upful187 Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 30 '24
Bad Hasbara rules. Coupla mensches. Daniel has been a North Star for me this past year
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Aug 31 '24
[…] the way Israel has always converted grief into power[…]
Ooof.
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u/PopPunkAndPizza Aug 30 '24
To be fair psytrance is awful and the way Israel has always converted grief into power is atrocious and cynical.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 30 '24
so what would your response to my post be?
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u/PopPunkAndPizza Aug 30 '24 edited Aug 30 '24
It's hard to say without knowing if there is any extent to which footage or accounts will be used in further propaganda. If it's just a dance that isn't going to be exploited to run cover for slaughter and displacement, fine, go remember your friend. If it's being filmed or otherwise staged by propagandists, I'd have a hard time justifying being a part of that. For the psytrance, put in some earbuds and find the Spotify playlist of Mord Records industrial techno instead. I appreciate the complication of the event in question but I will not stop hating on psytrance.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Aug 30 '24
I think it's pretty easy to know, especially given who goes to Burning Man (Silicon Valley capitalists aren't just moderately Zionist, they actively makes money off the genocide).
It will be.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 31 '24
To be fair psytrance is awful
I mean, I don't particularly like it either (though I love an adjacent genre, psy-chill). But that doesn't make it objectively bad, and doesn't mean it's not insensitive to joke about the deaths of attendees because they had a niche taste in music.
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u/postiepotatoes Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
What is this Zionist apologia?
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 31 '24
Please explain what part of my comment suggests there's anything remotely OK with Zionism.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
See this is the issue I'm having, show any sympathy for the innocent that were killed at the music festival and you're a zionist apologist now. Mourning the israelis is not mutually exclusive with mourning the palestinians.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
It's absolutely gross that there was a rave near the Gaza concentration camp.
That doesn't justify targeting civilians of course nor any atrocity that day.
But if 10/7 never happened, and there was a news article entitled 'Rave party held nearby Gaza border' - I think most rational observers might think that's pretty gross.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
Is there a point you're trying to make with this comment? I dont really see how it relates to my comment u replied to
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 31 '24
I think their point is that the deaths of partiers can be tragic at the same time that partying near the border of a concentration camp is tragic and shameful, though it's perhaps worth noting that attendees seemingly did not know this would be the location in advance (and likely had purchased tickets by the time the location was announced, or depending on what sources you follow, moved)
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
Thanks for you reply, It's well thought out. Yes the location wasn't initially announced. It's also some miles away from the border, I assume they'd chose that area because of its climate and open space
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
The point-of-contention here is whether one should sympathize with the victims. This isn't as straightforward as one might think.
And you said it best, if one sympathizes then they might be accused of being X, Y, Z etc.
I've simply responded to that position with my own.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
So with your comments about the festival being near gaza were you meaning to imply that one's attendance at the festival dictates how how tragic their death is? Like if they were killed in a different way in an act of hate it would be more deserving of sympathy?
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist Sep 01 '24
Of course the circumstances of a death determine the level of tragedy. Your friend’s death was the equivalent of partying a few miles from the Warsaw ghetto and being killed by some fighters who got out.
The tragedy is that she was there in the first place.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Sep 01 '24
I hear you cupcakefacism but I think this kind of take is pushing us in the wrong direction. this thinking only serves to dehumanize individuals and justify more violence and suffering. This mindset fuels animosity and perpetuates cycles of violence, making it impossible for either side to move toward understanding or reconciliation. We need more empathy and less judgment if we're ever going to break free from this endless conflict
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 01 '24
The tragedy is that she was there in the first place.
This is a really insensitive thing to say about someone's dead friend
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I think my comment was really clear.
Just because holding a rave near a concentration camp is gross (to say the least) - doesn't justify what happened.
Not sure why you have to even ask me that.
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 01 '24
It's absolutely gross that there was a rave near the Gaza concentration camp.
How far away from the border between Gaza and Israel is enough for a rave to be appropriate?
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 01 '24
Let's instead consider the inverse of your question's motivation.
If the rave was held right on the border, would that be appropriate?
How about inside Gaza, with IDF protection? That could actually happen right now considering the wanton destruction, genocide, etc.
There is in fact a vague number that people will have in mind. I don't think even a pro-Israel commentator would agree with hosting a rave inside of Gaza, right?
But you're posing this question to me, obviously in contempt, because you don't think it was close enough to warrant revulsion?
But I think it was close enough. Not much else to discuss, because I'm sure even you have a number in mind.
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 01 '24
you're posing this question to me, obviously in contempt
this is literally the definition of engaging in bad faith
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 01 '24
Not if I'm right - which I am.
I've already seen another commentator ask this exact question in the thread - and it's motivated by contempt for the perceived insensitivity towards the victims.
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 01 '24
Not if I'm right - which I am.
You're not, but of course I'm not going to be able to convince you of that. That's one of the problems with engaging people in bad faith.
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u/TinyDogBacon Aug 31 '24
Humans dying. Israelis... Palestinians...both humans... Civilians on both sides dying...and fighters on both sides dying. I sympathize with all of the humanity impacted...even the blind aggressors in the IDF are human too. I hate the genocide and what the IDF is doing by the way. I also hate the casualties on Israel's "side". Really amidst all the imaginary sides we are one and I pray for peace and love. Remember your friend and go to the memorial if you want. You going to this event isn't going to make the genocide look any better even if some are trying to film the service for propaganda purposes. Who cares...you're there for your friend.
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u/postiepotatoes Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
Implying October 7th was a tragedy and that making fun of it is harmful. That's a common Zionist talking point.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 31 '24
I think people dying is a tragedy regardless of who it is. I think young people dying by the hands of others is a tragedy. I think the deaths of the Nova festivals is a tragedy. I think deaths of the 1600 militants from Gaza who died on October 7th is a tragedy. I think the deaths of some of the IOF soldiers who responded to the insurgency is a tragedy.
All of these things can be true, even if I personally find the October 7 deaths of 1600 resistance fighters from Gaza more tragic than the deaths of IOF who have been invading Gaza since then.
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u/postiepotatoes Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I think that's a fair and somber outlook. I appreciate that view. Shabbat Shalom 💖
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
this reply made me feel the smallest inkling of hope
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u/postiepotatoes Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I could use some of that. I really could. And I thya great deal many others could too.
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u/cupcakefascism Jewish Communist Sep 01 '24
Same but I agree with you on the above being Zionist apologia.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
I agree completely. I think if everybody was on this page the conflict could be resolved without violence.
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u/theapplekid Orthodox-raised, atheist, Ashkenazi, leftist 🍁 Aug 31 '24
Inshallah we can get there one day <3
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u/actsqueeze Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 31 '24
I’m curious to know the reaction if you were to go wearing some pro-Palestine symbol on your body.
If people have a negative reaction to that then you know where they stand.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Sep 01 '24
I've been wondering the same. I'd also be curious to see the reaction of both sides if I wore something with a more neutral slogan. Like "No child deserves to wake up to rocket sirens" without specifying which side I'm talking about.
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u/screedor Sep 04 '24
Every comment I have read outside this page about it is either 100% pro genocide war crime. Or downvoted like mad.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Sep 04 '24
send some examples
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u/screedor Sep 04 '24
Here is one.
Urban warfare is not a genocide. Not one Israeli I know is excited or happy about being involved in a war, but they know it is necessary. They are also the most vocal critics of Netanyahu and his government. And are some of the best burners and humans I know.
Radical inclusion and radical self expression are going to bother you sometimes.
But lying and painting them as supporters of a genocide definitely doesn’t fit the 10 principles.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Sep 01 '24
You have every right to mourn and commemorate your friend. The emergency in which your friend perished hasn't stopped. People are still being gunned down just a few miles from where your friend died. The fear your friend must have felt while caught up in a military attack continues to be felt by people just a few miles away, a 60 or 90 minute walk away. If the Burning Man organizers truly had a humane attitude, they would be saying something about this reality.
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Sep 02 '24 edited Sep 02 '24
It makes a lot of sense to have that there since the connection between the Nova event and regional Israel burn is strong. I have read in another reddit thread that the same people who organized the Nova festival also did organize the Israel burn, but I haven’t verified that. It definitely isn’t the same organizations that put on Midburn and the Nova Festival. Anyway, Point being that at the level of solidarity amongst burners alone, it makes sense.
Having just been at Burning Man, the only time I went to Temple, there was a Free Palestine speaking event inside and the audience filled the space.
I went to the We Will Dance Again art installation too. There were a few greeters to answer questions, but otherwise there weren’t many role there when I was. No Israel flags or anything nationalist.
I think it all shows that Burning Man can give space for many different concerns.
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Aug 31 '24
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u/gmbxbndp Jewish Communist Aug 31 '24
Would you feel bad for people that were arrested or shot for partying on the border of iran?
Of course. Being naive shouldn't be a death sentence. I wouldn't be particularly surprised that there was an unfortunate outcome, but it's a shame all the same.
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u/shrinky-dinkss Aug 31 '24
struggling to see the point you're trying to make
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Aug 31 '24
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
I’d be interested in seeing a map of places globally that you think people can party vs places that you won’t feel bad if they’re murdered when partying there.
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Aug 31 '24
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
So can people party anywhere in Israel? What about anywhere in the USA? South Korea? Is this anyone, or just certain people? Like I’m sure you wouldn’t have an issue with people partying in Gaza on Oct 6th, so I just want to know what the rules are for you.
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u/123553ten Aug 31 '24
i’m thinking, maybe telling this person she actually shouldn’t feel bad for her close, “so naive” dead friend was the exact kind of response op specified to not reply? so yes, you will get downvotes for callous shit like this.
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u/yungsemite Jewish Aug 31 '24
You’re not going to get downvoted for that here, though I’d say it’s definitely not in the category of ‘thoughtful responses’ that OP asked us for.
The Nova Festival was held 3 miles from the border of Gaza, in Kibbutz Re’im, which is a mile from the nearest IDF base.
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u/screedor Sep 02 '24
Yeah mourning a friend is important. They may have been great. Making it about mourning for the event where the people dying in a camp had an uprising is political. This is just a Zionist statement. Even the name "we will dance again" is just gross. Considering where this dance was taking place I feel this whole question if they should participate is just kind of proof that OP has normalized the atrocity of Israel.
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u/uu_xx_me Ashkenazi Aug 30 '24
oh love of course you’re allowed to mourn your friend. if you hear people spouting zionist bullshit at that event, you can tell them your friend would not have supported that rhetoric and take a moment to advocate for palestinians. but their suffering doesn’t erase the fact that you lost someone you love, and you deserve to have space to celebrate her life.