"Ask A Jew" Wednesday

[u/AutoModerator]

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

[u/TurkeyFisher]

Personally I think that's giving a bit too much credence to the people screaming antisemitism. I think a lot of them are just leveraging identity politics to try to shut down anti-Zionists and feel attacked because they are getting called the oppressors. Is it really any different than young men lashing out at feminists because they don't understand "all men are bad" is hyperbolic? I agree you're probably not going to get far by trying to reason with Zionists, but at what point is "lived experience" just ideology? Considering very few young American Jews have any actual direct experience with Palestinians and just believe what they're told about Israel.

[u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet → u/TurkeyFisher]

Is it really any different than young men lashing out at feminists because they don't understand "all men are bad" is hyperbolic?

Yes, because unlike with men as a class there are real, powerful movements engaging in actual antisemitism both historically and in the present. There is no anti-men equivalent for Charlottesville or the Tree of Life synagogue, for example (which are both right-wing attacks but we're talking about irrational fear connections here). Fear of antisemitism is, in general, not based on losing access to a superior status, but an irrational fear of losing even an equal status.

Considering very few young American Jews have any actual direct experience with Palestinians and just believe what they're told about Israel.

Most if not all American Jews have at least some experience with antisemitism; a lot have at least some from self-declared pro-Palestinian activists (usually not Palestinian). This is obviously layered by a lot of propaganda around both Zionism and antizionism from Zionists, as well as indirect learning around antisemitism as a whole -- for example, I'm the first generation in a long time in my family to have grandparents thanks to WWII, which affects things even if I'm not experiencing that antisemitism myself.

If our goal is to actually convince your average Jew that antizionism isn't some boogieman trying to lead you to the gas chambers again, I personally believe the starting point is to acknowledge the base of that fear and then showing them why it is misapplied -- dismissing it entirely seems counterproductive.

[u/TurkeyFisher → u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet]

I'm not saying we should dismiss entirely- to use the same imperfect comparison I think it is similar to how I think we shouldn't dismiss men's feelings that society is unfair to men in some unique ways, even if men don't face the same level of historical inequality as women. But in both cases I think it comes down to whether the claim is made in good faith or not. Are men not encouraged to express their feelings in society? Sure. Are there Jews who are legitimately afraid of antisemitism? Absolutely. Am I going to take a talking head on cable news seriously when they accuse pro-Palestinian protestors of antisemitism simply for being vocal against Israel? Absolutely not.

I agree we need to acknowledge the real fear of antisemitism and not dismiss it, but at the same time I think there is a point where claims of antisemitism are being used to shut down conversation and activism. Because according to many people simply expressing disapproval of Israel's actions in Gaza is antisemitic. The line must be drawn somewhere.

[u/bearoscuro → u/TurkeyFisher]

Yeah, I never know how to feel about it.

On the one hand, I do think it's important to have sympathy for their thought process and recognize the source of it. I think people on the left do sometimes minimize the impact of the Holocaust and other antisemitism on their mindset, and I can kind of understand why they're so hyper-defensive of Israel as a result.

On the other hand, the effective impact of their actions is... basically textbook weaponization of white fear. I could start shivering and crying about racism as much as I wanted to, and it would have little effect in moving society. Unfortunately, now when they do it, the cops show up in riot gear, schools prevent students from speaking freely or even wearing a kuffiyeh, the entire media activates around peaceful protests to frame them as barely restrained mobs, etc. Their feelings become more important than reality. And this treatment hasn't been done for actual neo-nazis or dangerous far right groups - the entire weight of their feelings and state violence is brought down on leftists and racial minorities instead.

So my sympathy becomes a little more cynically motivated and out of self preservation, because I know if I get visibly mad at all, that's going to be interpreted as Violent Antisemitic Terrorists In Our Streets!! And then people might drum up right wing media about it, or possibly use it as justification for increasing police, etc.

And on the third hand, for me personally, it does get slightly tiring to maintain the civility high ground 100% of the time, hah. It's not really productive to snap at random people who won't have their minds changed in any way, but repeated hostility from strangers like that does start to wear you down a little as a person.

And on the fourth hand (wow that's a lot of hands!), it's not really my problem to solve, but I do think things are going to get really bleak and polarized for everyone in society if there isn't a sustained effort to at least soften people's stances.

[u/TurkeyFisher → u/bearoscuro]

Yeah I totally agree. A lot of pro-Palestinian students have been completely lacking in tact or don't fully understand the implications of what they are saying even if they don't intend to be antisemitic. For example, using "from the river to the sea" is not a winning slogan and I can understand why it makes many Jews uncomfortable. I'm not sure how to feel about it myself. I don't think activists should be going around saying that Israel shouldn't exist because a) it does, and that's the reality we have to contend with, and b) the implications of "getting rid" of Israel are not great.

But on the other hand, the way that pro-Palestinian protests have been treated by the media compared to even the coverage of Black Lives Matter protests is pretty stark. There was wall to wall coverage of how scared Jewish students were and how the activists should be banned from employment, expelled, etc. Meanwhile the center to left media gave at least balanced if not outright positive coverage of the BLM protests, universities were widely supportive of them, and organizations even going so far as committing to hiring more POC in their organizations, supporting BLM on social media, etc.

[u/bearoscuro → u/TurkeyFisher]

For sure. I feel insane even having to do these types of constant "oooh, how will this be ~perceived~" conversations at a certain point. The media treats "19 year old college activist says something unwise" as front page, 24/7 breathless coverage news - meanwhile, Israel bombs every hospital in Gaza and has riots about the right to rape prisoners, and there's nothing.

It's very bleak that we are watching the worst war crimes of most people's lifetimes, and yet any call for even people's basic, minimal rights to live has to be first predicated with a dozen disclaimers, and scanned for the worst faith possible reading, and then the entire news media and every elected official will go on TV and call you a terrorist regardless. There's at least 90 000 people dead in less than a year, possibly twice that, polio spreading through a captive population, and that same weaponized white fear is still forcing everyone to prioritize ~feelings of discomfort~ over the mass graves in Gaza.