r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Aug 28 '24
AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday
It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Aug 28 '24
orthodox, masorati, or otherwise traditional-leaning jews: how are we holding up? shit's rough
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
It's rough but moreso bc of the genocide. My lack of spiritual community is secondary. Haven't been to my old conservadox shul since September 2023.
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Aug 28 '24
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Aug 30 '24
I could really go for some divine intervention right now.
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u/Level-Class-8367 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
If you were to guess, what percentage of American Jews (who know the situation) will support Israel unconditionally, versus how many are at least relatively pro-Palestine? I phrased that poorly, I know, but for lack of a better way to say it.
I ask because my own boyfriend is Jewish. He himself doesn’t know much about the ongoing conflict and history of how it came to be, but his mom is very pro-Israel. So considering those two factors, I try not to hold it against him too much when he says uneducated things about the issue.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Close to 40% of young Jews believed Israel was an apartheid state in summer 2021. I can only imagine that number has increased exponentially. Source: Jewish Electoral Institute 2021 study: https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/JEI-Survey-Analysis-071321.pdf
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Well here's some polling on it: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/02/how-us-jews-are-experiencing-the-israel-hamas-war/
Keep in mind it's four months old and more people are finding Israel's actions unacceptable the longer it goes on. But according to this poll it's a 62% / 33% split on approval/disapproval of Israel's actions. The key thing is that the younger someone is the less they support Israel's actions. 42% of Jews under 34 find Israel's actions unacceptable. And yes, often younger people will defer to their parents on issues they feel they don't know much about.
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u/Level-Class-8367 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
He has the intention of doing his research on the matter. I tell him to go out of his way to find unbiased sources. But it’s also not his top priority to become educated in the near future. I’d just like to wear my keffiyeh around him and I don’t think he’ll be comfortable because of his mom.
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
One way to discuss it with him is to talk more about the long term strategy and how what they are doing is dangerous for the future of Israel. We are precipitously close to a war between Israel and Iran, which would lead to much more death and suffering in Israel than we saw on October 7th. And part of the reason that Netanyahu is trying to drag the US into a war with Iran is because he is personally afraid of going to prison. You may not be able to make him anti-Zionist but you can probably convince him that what Israel is doing does not benefit anyone in the region, including Israelis. Show him some of the reporting coming out of Israel about how Netenyahu is undermining peace talks by changing the offer at the last minute- he has no intention of actually getting the hostages back, his goal is to prolong the war as long as possible because he is going to prison on corruption charges as soon as it ends.
That said, personally I think wearing a keffiyeh is a bit performative if you aren't Muslim, especially if you are just wearing it day to day and not at a protest. If the tables were turned and people were wearing yarmulkes in support of some Jewish cause I would also think it was pretty silly. I can't really blame your boyfriend for feeling uncomfortable with it because it could create family drama, and ultimately what do you hope to achieve by wearing it everywhere?
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
Just to jump in - it's completely ok to wear a kuffiyeh regardless of ethnicity or religion! People will see it as a gesture of solidarity, not as any sort of appropriation. It is currently too hot for me to wear it out, but I had one on as my daily winter scarf for several months.
My thought was that - especially right after those 3 students in the US got shot for wearing them, and there were a few smaller incidents near me - it's actually good for as many people as possible to wear them and normalize it, to deter targeted assaults like that. Either we all get herd immunity from hate crimes, or we all get jumped together as comrades, haha. I think other non Arab people felt similarly.
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u/Level-Class-8367 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24
Yeah I knew it’s seen as solidarity and not appropriation, so that’s exactly why I like wearing it when possible 😊
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u/Level-Class-8367 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Oh I would never wear it in front of his family. But I sometimes have seen random people wearing it in solidarity with Palestinians. I don’t wear mine often, especially because it’s too damn hot, but every so often I wear it to show my support.
Either way, that’s a very good talking point you have there. Thanks!
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u/uu_xx_me Ashkenazi Aug 28 '24
google is probably better for this question than a group of jews who would just be guessing. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-generation-gap-in-opinions-toward-israel/
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u/keenanandkel LGBTQ Jew Aug 28 '24
I am an antizionist Jew who could use some help when I’m asked this. When someone asks about my views on Hamas and how it fits in (both conceptually and pragmatically) with my push for a ceasefire…I don’t actually have an answer beyond that having a solution for peace in the Middle East isn’t a prerequisite for calling for an end of genocide.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24
All the men who wrote the original Hamas charter are dead. The current group is something new, and if you read their 2017 charter it's nothing like ISIS/Al Qaeda/other extremist groups.
Here are some really good English-language interviews which show that both Hamas an PIJ have no issue with Jews living in Palestine. PIJ interview
Jeremy Scahill: Do you believe that Jews who emigrated from Europe or the United States or Australia or South Africa have a right to live in that state?
Mohammed Al-Hindi: We don’t have a problem with them if they were not conspiring, engaging in aggression, inflicting injustice, controlling the region. We don’t have a problem otherwise.
Hamas interview
Edit: Israel also funded Hamas to destabilize the secular PLO. Source
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u/Aurhim Ashkenazi Aug 28 '24
My go-to is: “How do you kill an idea?”
Hamas’ leaders are awful people, and—assuming it doesn’t cause WWIII—I think we’d all be better off with them off the table. However… Hamas is an insurgency movement, one based on political and religious ideologies that unfortunately have very real cachet among many Palestinians and Arabs.
Adjacent to the topic of a ceasefire is the equally important topic of what happens after the war is over? This question matters regardless of whether or not a ceasefire happens; a ceasefire will simply force Israel to confront it sooner, rather than later.
One of the easiest ways for Israel supporters to deflect calls for a ceasefire is to say that a pause in hostilities will simply give Hamas time to rearm itself. To that, I say: in the long term, how is that any different from an Israeli “victory” which sees Hamas’ commanders killed, only for another generation of even more radicalized terrorists to pop up in their place a couple decades down the line?
Israel has to choose whether it wants peace or victory. Barring a radical change in the fact on the ground, it cannot have both, because the Arabs have made it very clear they are unwilling to accept the defeat that would necessarily come from an Israeli victory. As long as Israel thinks it can solve its problem by bombing it into submission, it’s dooming itself to an endless cycle of mounting violence and radicalization on both sides—and that’s not good for anyone.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Aug 28 '24
"When was the last time the IRA bombed London?"
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u/Adept_Thanks_6993 Orthodox Aug 28 '24
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Provisional IRA disarm after Good Friday?
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Aug 28 '24
Perhaps that is the point . . . it wasn't necessary to kill them all; there is a template for a peace process.
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Aug 29 '24
Basically, yes. The point is that Hamas is a resistance organization that believes God's intervention is required to deliver the Palestinians from the hand of the Zionist, and that will only happen if they build a virtuous society; it's not a Salafi group trying to bring back the Caliphate with flame and sword and death to the infidels.
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Aug 28 '24
I am an antizionist Jew who could use some help when I’m asked this. When someone asks about my views on Hamas and how it fits in (both conceptually and pragmatically) with my push for a ceasefire…I don’t actually have an answer
I'm not sure how we can help you with this without knowing what your views on Hamas are that people are asking you about
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u/ApplesauceFuckface Ashkenazi Aug 29 '24
I have a few different ways of answering that, which one I choose depends on the overall vibe of the conversation.
One answer is to deflect by arguing that my views on Hamas are irrelevant because I have a sphere of influence, and Hamas isn't part of it.
Another answer kind of dodges or redirects the question from the intended moral argument into a pragmatic one. I say that we can't let our emotions blind us to the fact that Hamas is committed to its goals and clever in its ability to watch Israel and find its weak points. I try to pivot the conversation to focus on the fact that Israel's government and military keeps making the mistakes of underestimating and dismissing the resolve and ingenuity of Palestinian liberation movements.
Finally, and this won't work for lots of people, I say that I can relate to them as someone who does a lot of work negotiating on behalf of and assisting in the positioning of a structurally weaker (but not powerless) party in dealings with a more powerful entity.
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u/malachamavet Excessively Communist Jew Aug 31 '24
Resistance organizations aren't monolithic, even internally, and they often get portrayed as more fanatical/antisemitic than they are. Like there are clearly significant factions within the groups who are - but Sinwar himself had a speech 2 years back where he talked about how Israel is criminal because not only does it oppress and assault Muslim Palestinians and Christian Palestinians but also Jews who aren't Zionists (specifically referring to the Haredim in Jerusalem). Something along the lines of "they smash their heads with the same batons they use against our Muslim and Christian people."
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u/SkyOfViolet Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
What are this subs thoughts on (what I personally thought was) an interesting point from a Palestinian anti-Zionist on Instagram: suggesting that Jewish voices are the most critical on this issue and that only Jewish anti-zionists can really in good faith criticize Israel without “goyimsplaining” it is further devaluing and dehumanizing Palestinian voices against the genocide?
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Aug 28 '24
I'm not sure what that means. I haven't seen Jewish leftists say Jewish voices are more important than Palestinian voices or that others can't criticize Israel in good faith. So that shouldn't apply to them.
People in pro-Israel circles don't privilege Jewish anti-Zionists. If anything, they marginalize them, question their motivations or erudition, and even question whether they are Jews altogether. So that shouldn't apply to them either.If it'd apply to anyone, maybe it'd be to someone like Piers Morgan who'd repeatedly platform Norman Finkelstein but rarely if ever have on Rashid Khalidi. But even then, they'll have on people like Mustafa Barghouti or Omar Baddar, so that wouldn't really count either.
If the poster said that Palestinian voices are just devalued generally, then sure. Or if they said that the Palestinian narrative written by people who aren't Palestinians is more frequently taken seriously, then that'd also be true.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24
I think it depends on the context. In the USA, this is true in many contexts (mainstream media, testifying before Congress, etc.) In Egypt or Jordan, probably not so much.
Edit: I should state that I don't agree with the second point, that only Jews should speak on this. I do agree that for practical reasons it makes sense to center Jewish voices in certain circumstances even if it's not moral to do so. Non-Jews, whether Palestinian, Arab, or otherwise, speaking against apartheid is not "goyimsplaining."
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u/SkyOfViolet Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
That’s interesting, would you mind elaborating? Is it the demographic difference or cultural differences or a combination of both?
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
A lot of older American liberals support Israel because they see it as a defender against antisemitism (despite it largely doing the opposite.) An American Jew, especially one who has survived the Holocaust or is related to Holocaust survivors, subverts that narrative when they support Palestine. Katie Halper has a lot of interviews like that on her youtube channel (ignore the clickbait titles; she's an excellent journalist.) Halper is herself Jewish and was fired from publication The Hill for calling Israel an apartheid state.
The USA could have stopped the Holocaust and accepted Jewish refugees, but it refused to do so.
Miko Peled is another good example; he's the son of an Israeli general and is anti-Zionist.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Replying to note that I edited my first response. I don't agree at all that non-Jews resisting apartheid is "goyimsplaining", just that having Jewish speakers can sometimes be a good PR move.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
There are an unfortunately high number of people who react to even mild expressions of Palestinian solidarity like this, even after 10 months of watching children be pulled out of rubble.
I understand it's a fear response, and I've gone out of my way to be extremely polite and nonconfrontational when people like that talk to me. I'm certainly not going to win hearts and minds of racist strangers, so I figure I might as well just not agitate them more. However, it's very hard for me to have sympathy for it at this point, when that attitude is what's actively helping continue the genocide, and even locally on a smaller scale, getting people I care about surveilled, harassed, hurt by police, fired from work, etc.
I guess my question is: is it possible to get through to people in that level of knee-jerk racist fear? Unfortunately I don't see good outcomes, even on a domestic local level, if there's no way to deradicalize them.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Aug 28 '24
You can't. At least, not as an ally.
The Jewish emotions around antisemitism and how it relates to pro-Palestinian movements are complex and require navigation that I don't think is possible without lived experience. Unless you can completely understand & deconstruct their fear -- and do so in a way that they themselves can't fully dismiss you, which has "being Jewish" as a prerequisite -- they will (likely rightfully) dismiss you as "goysplaining". The only solution really is to try to direct them to either antizionist Jewish individuals or smaller-scale organizations and then refuse to continue the engagement.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
Oh no worries, I was not planning on trying to talk to them in any lengthy conversation. So far it usually goes as a "you're all terrorists! Fuck Palestine!" from them, and a reply of "haha, ok, have a nice day :)" from me while hoping they leave lmao. They fully see me as a threat on sight, so prolonging the interaction is pointless. I'm aware I have 0% chance of Winning Hearts And Minds on this.
What I mean is, is it actually common for any conversations or outreach (whether with family, colleagues, religious settings, schools, idk) to get people on that level to let go of their views?
I'm curious mostly because these are unfortunately people who will be voting, participating in school board and police budget discussions, general hate crime prevalence towards Muslims, etc. So that's not great to consider. I'm curious if that's a chance that their numbers will lessen over time as people manage to soften their stances, or if I just need to resign myself to it.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Aug 28 '24
I've never had success of fully pulling someone out of Zionism. However, I have had a lot of success at least showing that antizionism isn't inherently antisemitism by being able to talk to these kinds of people on their level. Once this happens a lot of new paths open up, so that hopefully even if they are still Zionist they don't treat Zionism as a self-preservation issue -- reducing the strength of Zionism as a whole.
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Aug 28 '24
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Personally I think that's giving a bit too much credence to the people screaming antisemitism. I think a lot of them are just leveraging identity politics to try to shut down anti-Zionists and feel attacked because they are getting called the oppressors. Is it really any different than young men lashing out at feminists because they don't understand "all men are bad" is hyperbolic? I agree you're probably not going to get far by trying to reason with Zionists, but at what point is "lived experience" just ideology? Considering very few young American Jews have any actual direct experience with Palestinians and just believe what they're told about Israel.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Aug 28 '24
Is it really any different than young men lashing out at feminists because they don't understand "all men are bad" is hyperbolic?
Yes, because unlike with men as a class there are real, powerful movements engaging in actual antisemitism both historically and in the present. There is no anti-men equivalent for Charlottesville or the Tree of Life synagogue, for example (which are both right-wing attacks but we're talking about irrational fear connections here). Fear of antisemitism is, in general, not based on losing access to a superior status, but an irrational fear of losing even an equal status.
Considering very few young American Jews have any actual direct experience with Palestinians and just believe what they're told about Israel.
Most if not all American Jews have at least some experience with antisemitism; a lot have at least some from self-declared pro-Palestinian activists (usually not Palestinian). This is obviously layered by a lot of propaganda around both Zionism and antizionism from Zionists, as well as indirect learning around antisemitism as a whole -- for example, I'm the first generation in a long time in my family to have grandparents thanks to WWII, which affects things even if I'm not experiencing that antisemitism myself.
If our goal is to actually convince your average Jew that antizionism isn't some boogieman trying to lead you to the gas chambers again, I personally believe the starting point is to acknowledge the base of that fear and then showing them why it is misapplied -- dismissing it entirely seems counterproductive.
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
I'm not saying we should dismiss entirely- to use the same imperfect comparison I think it is similar to how I think we shouldn't dismiss men's feelings that society is unfair to men in some unique ways, even if men don't face the same level of historical inequality as women. But in both cases I think it comes down to whether the claim is made in good faith or not. Are men not encouraged to express their feelings in society? Sure. Are there Jews who are legitimately afraid of antisemitism? Absolutely. Am I going to take a talking head on cable news seriously when they accuse pro-Palestinian protestors of antisemitism simply for being vocal against Israel? Absolutely not.
I agree we need to acknowledge the real fear of antisemitism and not dismiss it, but at the same time I think there is a point where claims of antisemitism are being used to shut down conversation and activism. Because according to many people simply expressing disapproval of Israel's actions in Gaza is antisemitic. The line must be drawn somewhere.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
Yeah, I never know how to feel about it.
On the one hand, I do think it's important to have sympathy for their thought process and recognize the source of it. I think people on the left do sometimes minimize the impact of the Holocaust and other antisemitism on their mindset, and I can kind of understand why they're so hyper-defensive of Israel as a result.
On the other hand, the effective impact of their actions is... basically textbook weaponization of white fear. I could start shivering and crying about racism as much as I wanted to, and it would have little effect in moving society. Unfortunately, now when they do it, the cops show up in riot gear, schools prevent students from speaking freely or even wearing a kuffiyeh, the entire media activates around peaceful protests to frame them as barely restrained mobs, etc. Their feelings become more important than reality. And this treatment hasn't been done for actual neo-nazis or dangerous far right groups - the entire weight of their feelings and state violence is brought down on leftists and racial minorities instead.
So my sympathy becomes a little more cynically motivated and out of self preservation, because I know if I get visibly mad at all, that's going to be interpreted as Violent Antisemitic Terrorists In Our Streets!! And then people might drum up right wing media about it, or possibly use it as justification for increasing police, etc.
And on the third hand, for me personally, it does get slightly tiring to maintain the civility high ground 100% of the time, hah. It's not really productive to snap at random people who won't have their minds changed in any way, but repeated hostility from strangers like that does start to wear you down a little as a person.
And on the fourth hand (wow that's a lot of hands!), it's not really my problem to solve, but I do think things are going to get really bleak and polarized for everyone in society if there isn't a sustained effort to at least soften people's stances.
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Yeah I totally agree. A lot of pro-Palestinian students have been completely lacking in tact or don't fully understand the implications of what they are saying even if they don't intend to be antisemitic. For example, using "from the river to the sea" is not a winning slogan and I can understand why it makes many Jews uncomfortable. I'm not sure how to feel about it myself. I don't think activists should be going around saying that Israel shouldn't exist because a) it does, and that's the reality we have to contend with, and b) the implications of "getting rid" of Israel are not great.
But on the other hand, the way that pro-Palestinian protests have been treated by the media compared to even the coverage of Black Lives Matter protests is pretty stark. There was wall to wall coverage of how scared Jewish students were and how the activists should be banned from employment, expelled, etc. Meanwhile the center to left media gave at least balanced if not outright positive coverage of the BLM protests, universities were widely supportive of them, and organizations even going so far as committing to hiring more POC in their organizations, supporting BLM on social media, etc.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
For sure. I feel insane even having to do these types of constant "oooh, how will this be ~perceived~" conversations at a certain point. The media treats "19 year old college activist says something unwise" as front page, 24/7 breathless coverage news - meanwhile, Israel bombs every hospital in Gaza and has riots about the right to rape prisoners, and there's nothing.
It's very bleak that we are watching the worst war crimes of most people's lifetimes, and yet any call for even people's basic, minimal rights to live has to be first predicated with a dozen disclaimers, and scanned for the worst faith possible reading, and then the entire news media and every elected official will go on TV and call you a terrorist regardless. There's at least 90 000 people dead in less than a year, possibly twice that, polio spreading through a captive population, and that same weaponized white fear is still forcing everyone to prioritize ~feelings of discomfort~ over the mass graves in Gaza.
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u/hi_cholesterol24 non-religious raised jewish Aug 28 '24
Sometimes I will say “you lose out on so much by being a bigot/Islamophobic/xenophobic” and leave it at that. Or more ominously “10-15 years from now when the tide turns and I will remember exactly where you stood”
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u/brasdontfit1234 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
For those who live in Israel, when I check Twitter or comments section on JPost it’s absolutely horrifying to see the genocidal rhetoric being spoken so casually, degrading terms like “rats” and “subhumans” etc. are also super common and almost never challenged. I really can’t tell if this is a common rhetoric, are these your average Israeli Jews, or is this less common?
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 28 '24
Jerusalem Post is a sad shell of its former self and has become a poorly-written and overtly right wing rag. It is not really read by Israelis, it is aimed at an international English-speaking right wing audience. Of course I don't know who is making those comments but I would assume there is significant overlap with Fox News and the like.
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u/brasdontfit1234 Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Thanks! That makes me feel better! Overall do you think that the “subhuman” “rats” mentality is common among Israelis?
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Aug 28 '24
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u/danmaster0 Atheist Aug 28 '24
How is racism(?) inside Israel? I'm not that informed of it, but i know there's different casts(?) of jew, at least in the eyes of some of them, and groups like beta jews are treated like a racial minority and oppressed. How is the experience in Israel and outside, with regards to that?
How is xenophobia in Israel? How is immigration viewed? If you're a newcomer jew, are you treated badly by jews that are there for generations? I know how immigration of non jews is viewed, it being an ethnic state is enough of an answer to that
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u/Pitiful_Meringue_57 Jewish Aug 30 '24
i’m not israeli so i’m speaking just from what i’ve heard and seen, but it doesn’t seem to me that xenophobia against non-israeli born jews is a problem at all. It’s almost the opposite, where jews are very much celebrated for leaving the places they were born to make aliyah. From my experience as a diaspora jew i very much feel like israeli jews look down us and often times are a lot more right leaning than the more liberal diaspora counterparts (atleast in the US). The israeli government very much encourages jewish immigration.
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u/danmaster0 Atheist Aug 30 '24
Makes sense, thank you for the reply
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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Sep 01 '24
They're intensely racist to black people, whether or not they're Jews.
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Aug 28 '24
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u/Roy4Pris Zionism is a waste of Judaism Aug 28 '24
If you were the next president of the United States, what would you do?
For example, immediately ban all military transfers to Israel.
Convene an international conference to bring an end to the conflict. A ‘Marshall plan’ for Middle East peace.
Commit 100,000 peacekeepers for a minimum of a decade to restore security, and ask European and Arab states to collectively contribute same.
What else?
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u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
The last time there was a reasonable ceasefire and hostage swap deal that Hamas had agreed to, I would tell the Israeli government that they're not getting any more weapons if they don't sign on to it.
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Aug 28 '24
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u/heypresto2k Non-Jewish Ally Aug 28 '24
Posting again as it got removed due to me not having a flair. “Why is it that even saying Palestine now gets one called an antisemite? I was talking about bigotry against Muslim people somewhere (without any mention of Palestine, Palestinians, Israel, Judaism, Jewish people, you get the point) and I got called an antisemite and I am seeing this in multiple places. I don’t see this from other religious people. No one gets called a Christophobe or anti Christian or Islamophobe even when they are engaging in violent rhetoric. I don’t know where to ask this because it’s a shitty thing to do in real life and online.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
Because it shuts down discussions without having to actually engage with the ongoing genocide and occupation.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Aug 28 '24
The same reason anything related to Judaism or posted by a Jew is filled with "Free Palestine"/attacking the poster as a "Zionist" -- people have allowed the conflict to fill up their heads until they can't tell the difference between the "side" they are against and people who share the same label.
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u/heypresto2k Non-Jewish Ally Aug 29 '24
Didn’t downvote you but unfortunately, this doesn’t answer my questions. Would love to hear from others too.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Aug 28 '24
In the real, practical politics of my local community, how can I "yes, and" concerns about anti-semitism? Yes, anti-semitism must be addressed, but so must the fact that many local residents are advancing a genocidal politics.
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u/spxncer Reconstructionist Aug 28 '24
Dont? Putting any sort of equivalency or relationship between the two is what we’re trying to get away from. Validating the issue of a massive uptick in jew hatred is important, so let it be its own issue.
Bringing up anti-zionist concerns is obviously the issue at hand, and it should certainly not be disenfranchised by whataboutism. But to “yes and,” a real concern about jew hatred is a really bad look, ineffective, and further establishes the tie between it and antizionism.
TL;DR: Don’t, allow the issues to be seperate
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Aug 28 '24
In my view, I'm not trying to put forth "anti-zionist concerns," because that feels to me like taking a position on a religious and cultural issue. I am instead trying to advance the cause of humanitarianism, the cause of mercy and humanitarian assistance.
I do not think it is a surprise that our politics, which are so ugly, in which we back a genocide and suppress dissent from it, are also anti-semitic and also feature a large amount of official concern and public expenditure regarding the problem of anti-semitism. Thus I see the issues as related and not separate.
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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Aug 28 '24
In my view, I'm not trying to put forth "anti-zionist concerns," because that feels to me like taking a position on a religious and cultural issue.
I don't think it is accurate to call Zionism or anti-Zionism a "religious" issue (I would sooner use the words cultural, political, social)
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u/lilleff512 Jewish Aug 28 '24
I'm not trying to put forth "anti-zionist concerns," because that feels to me like taking a position on a religious and cultural issue. I am instead trying to advance the cause of humanitarianism
if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, then people who are afraid of ducks won't care if you call it something else
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24 edited Aug 28 '24
If it's any consolation, I do not accept the notion that it has gone up exponentially.
The ADL's data went up drastically once they began adopting IHRA and conflating pro-Palestine activism with antisemitism.
Jewish Currents also audited the ADL's 2023 data and found, in a worst-case scenario, that it was only 56% unambiguously accurate. A significant chunk of the data was pro-Palestine slogans. The ADL also made a lot of lazy mistakes in the data. At the same time, an academic is quoted as believing the real levels are actually higher - but there's not enough elaboration or data presented to back that theory up. The academic does make some understandable/common sense observations though.
I also do not experience antisemitism in my daily life. I see it often online but I also see tons of other hate.
I see much more Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian hate on Reddit than I do antisemitism.
And lastly, I think there is a difference in the discourse around this issue depending on one's politics.
I'm an anti-Zionist and my focus is on raising awareness about the genocide. I do not accept the Establishment claims about an epidemic of hate on the Left and I do not accept the IHRA definition.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Aug 28 '24
That's very helpful, thank you. Albeit it paints a dismal picture -- the true reason for the enormous amount of current official concern about anti-semitism has little to do with anti-semitism (as there's no dramatic increase in anti-semitism), but has to do with aggrandizing Israel (the modern state, not the scriptural / spiritual concept) and stifling dissent. As someone not Jewish-identifying, I find it very hard to push back, because any effort to "address anti-semitism" even if executed problematically or costing significant resources feels politically untouchable especially as I live in an area with a lot of Jewish, Zionist residents.
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Aug 28 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
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Aug 28 '24
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Aug 28 '24
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
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Aug 28 '24
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1
u/Oddpa Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
I’m very interested in the personal experience that many have underwent that shifted their worldview from being born a Zionist by default and the realization that they had to face growing up. On the other side, for those who aren’t Jewish, I’m also interested in how they stopped listening to “All Jews are bad” sentiment coming out of the other extreme side. In both of these sides I find moderate and grounded voices are those who will prevail and exact change. It is through these voices that we can find it within ourselves to unite and push back extremists of all colors and religions.
I would love to sit with a Jew and exchange views in SoCal if anyone is interested.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 29 '24
There are a few threads on this in the sub already. Search "unlearn zionism" or something like that, you should get plenty.
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u/Oddpa Anti-Zionist Aug 28 '24
I would love to sit with a Jew and exchange views in SoCal if anyone is interested.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Aug 28 '24
I think maybe the auto-generated OP should include a disclaimer that users need to be flaired in this thread so users could know before they submit a question