r/JewsOfConscience Jul 10 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Hi guys! I'm an Arab Muslim. Always enjoy passing by here.

My question relates to this video.

Quick intro: you can skip to the question part if it's TLDR.

So I think we all saw the Lucas Gage video where he uses a gladius to "make his ancestors proud" while tearing up the Israeli flag. He very quickly starts antisemitic tropes and blames everything on "The Jews" even mentions 9/11 🤦‍♂️ - - I'm atleast pleased to say that most of the comments under that video were calling it out.

Someone combined that video with one from Shahid Bolsen, he's an American Muslim revert who has interesting insights on politics and Islam.

Here's the question

On the topic of Antizionism being conflated with antisemitism.

Shahid speaks about the identity of Jewishness.

Classically, he says, in Islam and rabbinically, "a Jew" is one who follows and participates in Judaism. That the identity should stop there but it doesn't. He adds that the Historian Shlomo Sand says that non-religious Jews identify strongly as Jewish in one or more of 3 ways:

  1. By "Jewish blood" (which is more or less an antisemitic concept according to Sand)

  2. By the collective trauma of the Holocaust.

  3. The State of Israel. Which presents them with a place to go to be safe.

Shahid adds that this means that the non-religious Jewish identity is a construct forced upon them by Antisemites.

A Jewish person who does not believe or follow Judaism is still Jewish because non-Jews who hate Jews insist that they are Jews and won't allow them to be anything else.

I started to understand Jewishness as an Ethno-religious identity but I'd like to know how accurate Shahid's conclusion is to understand the concept further.

I am aware of the origins of JudenHass and Antisemitism which caused a shift.

Hate towards the people of the Jewish faith became a racist association between a language and race which made hate against Jewish people unavoidable. Even if a Jewish person became Christian, they'd still be considered Jewish.

Any opinions, thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Edit: clarification

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u/ohmysomeonehere Antizionist Jew Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

the idea of Judaism being defined as ethno-religious is one of the primary lies and agendas of Zionism. there is no such definition in 3000 years of Jewish teachings.

There is a very Jewish book that dives deep into this point called "The Empty Wagon" by Rabbi Yakov Shapiro. As a non-Jew, it might be a bit out of reach to work through, but it's as well written as it is long and detailed, explaining how zionism at its core it a redefining of the Jewish identity from a religious group to a secular nationality (holding onto the religious elements just enough as needed to rope in the jewish communities around the world as implicit citizens).

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 10 '24

Halacha itself makes it incredibly clear that someone who is born a Jew is always a Jew, regardless of their level of observance or belief (and whether you approve of that or not). This is a fundamental element of Jewish identity, it has nothing at all to do with Zionism.

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u/ohmysomeonehere Antizionist Jew Jul 10 '24

there are some semantics at play here, so please bear with me and keep the convo in good faith,

In Judaism, there are two distinct groups "Jews" and "Am Yisroel".

"Jews" are anyone who is obligated to keep the contract called "the Torah", i.e. either born to a Jewish mother or accepted upon himself to join that contractual obligation through a specific "conversion" process. One a person becomes a party to that contract, they cannot remove their obligation, hence "once a Jew always a Jew".

"Am Yisroel" is a subset of "Jews" who keep a baseline part of that contract, i.e. they "act like Jews" in public. The specific requirements of being part of "Am Yisroel" as per Judaism is to keep shabbos publicly, keep the majority of relevant commandments, not practice idolatry, not murder, and believe in what's known as the "13 principles of faith". Without diving much deeper into where that "red line" sits, the point of bringing this up is that Judaism is clear that there is a "red line". Someone who falls outside that "gate" is, while still obligated to the mitzvos as a Jew, is no longer part of "Am Yisroel.

So, a Catholic apostate Jew would still be a Jew yet not be part of "Am Yisroel". Such an apostate is treated halachically as a non-Jew, in that there is no areivus, no problem of lashon hara or lifnei iver, his wine is ayin nesech, he gets no share in the next world, etc, etc.

Beyond all this, my statement about zionism's goal is not about redefining the religious definition of "Jew" (because, obviously, zionism is not a religious player), it is about trying to redefine the common understanding of a "Jew" from a person who keeps shabbos and other religious fundamentals and replace it with a "national" identity that requires nothing jewish.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Jul 10 '24

This is simply not a traditional understanding of Jewishness even in mainstream Orthodox thought. Maimonides "13 principles of faith" are not halachicly binding in any way. The only example you give that is generally accepted as apostasy is a Jew who actively practices Christianity, but even then it's not so clear cut.

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u/ohmysomeonehere Antizionist Jew Jul 10 '24

this is clear ABCs of Judaism (well aleph-bais of Judaism, but ya know) from mishnayos, through ramabam, through mishen brerura/chofetz chaim. i don't think anything I've written is even remotely controversial by any standard, and I have certainly never seen any posek attempt to pasken differently.

The "13 principles of faith" is not a formal concept, just a common title given to foundational tenants of judaism that are halachikly binding. In fact the "13 principles" are primarily derived from exactly the part of Rambam's Yad Chazuku that delineates who is halachikally an apostate and who not.

If you have any source of a posek from any generation that disagree, let me know. It should be easy to find as these things come up very frequently in hilchos shabbos.