r/JewsOfConscience Jul 10 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Hi guys! I'm an Arab Muslim. Always enjoy passing by here.

My question relates to this video.

Quick intro: you can skip to the question part if it's TLDR.

So I think we all saw the Lucas Gage video where he uses a gladius to "make his ancestors proud" while tearing up the Israeli flag. He very quickly starts antisemitic tropes and blames everything on "The Jews" even mentions 9/11 šŸ¤¦ā€ā™‚ļø - - I'm atleast pleased to say that most of the comments under that video were calling it out.

Someone combined that video with one from Shahid Bolsen, he's an American Muslim revert who has interesting insights on politics and Islam.

Here's the question

On the topic of Antizionism being conflated with antisemitism.

Shahid speaks about the identity of Jewishness.

Classically, he says, in Islam and rabbinically, "a Jew" is one who follows and participates in Judaism. That the identity should stop there but it doesn't. He adds that the Historian Shlomo Sand says that non-religious Jews identify strongly as Jewish in one or more of 3 ways:

  1. By "Jewish blood" (which is more or less an antisemitic concept according to Sand)

  2. By the collective trauma of the Holocaust.

  3. The State of Israel. Which presents them with a place to go to be safe.

Shahid adds that this means that the non-religious Jewish identity is a construct forced upon them by Antisemites.

A Jewish person who does not believe or follow Judaism is still Jewish because non-Jews who hate Jews insist that they are Jews and won't allow them to be anything else.

I started to understand Jewishness as an Ethno-religious identity but I'd like to know how accurate Shahid's conclusion is to understand the concept further.

I am aware of the origins of JudenHass and Antisemitism which caused a shift.

Hate towards the people of the Jewish faith became a racist association between a language and race which made hate against Jewish people unavoidable. Even if a Jewish person became Christian, they'd still be considered Jewish.

Any opinions, thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Edit: clarification

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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 10 '24

Iā€™m a Jew and an atheist. I was raised conservative, so I grew up with Jewish community and religion. Iā€™m still part of the Jewish community, just not religious.

Iā€™ve never heard a Jew say that a Jew is one who follows and practices Judaism. My understanding has always been that youā€™re born Jewish. And that confers a responsibility to practice the commandments of Judaism. If you donā€™t practice, youā€™re still Jewish, but not fulfilling your responsibilities.

You can also go through a formal conversion to become Jewish. So itā€™s either by birth or conversion. But once youā€™re Jewish, by either method, thereā€™s no going back.

Iā€™m not a rabbi or a scholar, so my explanation may not be rabbinically perfect. But Iā€™ve never heard a Jew say itā€™s just a matter of following the religion. There are a ton of Jewish atheists like me who donā€™t practice.

I consider myself Jewish more by heritage than by blood. Itā€™s weird to me that a non-Jew would focus on my blood in isolation, when my Jewish identity is about my family and culture and historyā€¦ Blood is a very reductionist way to talk about it. (Unless youā€™re going by the religion, which does go by parentage.)

Lots of identities are formed around collective experiences. Race is a construct, and it was constructed by racists. That racist construct is at the heart of all the history that created Black identity/culture/community in the US.

Iā€™d never run around questioning the legitimacy of Black identity/culture/community. That would be stupid and arrogant. However Black people created i/c/c for themselves, and however they want to celebrate the i/c/c that emerged from a bunch of ugly history, itā€™s their call. And Iā€™ll celebrate it together with them.

Similarly, the LGBTQ+ community exists largely in response to a history of persecution. Iā€™m a gay man. What do I have in common with a lesbian? Nothing sexual. Only the way society treats us, and how thatā€™s shaped our experience.

I donā€™t think itā€™s bad that from persecution, people find meaning and community. Itā€™s a good thing.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. What you said is definitely my understanding of things, I just wanted to see how people feel about Historian Shlomo Sand's view and by extension Shahid's rationalization.

I really appreciate everything everyone has shared.

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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 10 '24

Well, I like being asked. This kind of stuff makes me think about my own identity more than Iā€™m used to.

If youā€™re interested in talking about it, Iā€™d love to hear how this compares to your experience as an Arab Muslimā€¦ which aspects sound familiar, in terms of how we construct our identity, and what sounds completely different.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24

I'd love to talk about it. Keep in mind I'm a Shia Muslim so my brothers from other sects might have slightly different takes on this.

This kind of stuff makes me think about my own identity more than Iā€™m used to.

I won't lie, I've looked at your question for an hour and I'm really unsure how to approach it šŸ˜‚

I guess I don't think about my identity much either.

Identity in the middle east is less rooted in your race than it is in your tribe or religion. Islamic orthodoxy essentially destroys racism, tells people that no one better than any other and if someone isn't your brother in religion they are your equal in creation.

Doesn't stop people being A*holes though unfortunately.

On the Islamic side of things, the middle east was extremely tolerant of other ideologies and sects. Debate and discussion and schools of Islamic thought developed relatively freely as long as they stood upto scrutiny. Unfortunately some ideologies popped up that are intolerant and now we're here šŸ˜…

My country (Kuwait) for example historically had people of different sects living as neighbours, intermarrying etc. It was completely normal. Modern political influences and the spread of less tolerant ideologies (salafism) has resulted in more segregation but it's being pushed back by people just living together.

I think we see something similar in Israel where interfaith marriage is illegal yet people still fall in love and try to make it work. Humanity is awesome like that sometimes.

On the Arab side of things... Gulf Arabs are like levantine Arabs, and like north African Arabs, we're all Arabs. Even though we are totally not the same in many ways. Our language and common culture unites us.

There is still discrimination mind you, bad stereotypes, distrust, especially with regards to recent history - but for the most part... When Syria plunged into civil war my country removed the visa requirement for Syrians in Kuwait so they didn't have to worry about being deported. Palestine's struggle is codified in our constitution. So we see each other as one people.

Historically people in the middle east would identify themselves by mentioning which city or town they're from. Beyond that is your family, tribe etc. This still exists in the middle east where your background speaks volumes about you before anyone knows you. It drives our societies because it means we are a society that is driven by shame and honor. Your family name is sacred and you have to do them all proud.

For example if you have a family member who's known to dabble in drugs, this stigma could stop you or even someone a generation later from getting married. Since the spouse-to-be's family wouldn't want to associate with yours.

This takes a heavy toll on people who are more individualistic or people who don't know how to conform.

Sorry, went on a tangent. Point being that race isn't as important in the middle east as it is in the west and generally racism is a bit alien to the middle east. So the middle eastern outlook on identity is quite different.

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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Jul 10 '24

Thanks so much for explaining.

We have plenty of assholes too, obviously, even though a lot of Jewish values are great and bring out the best in people. Sigh.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 11 '24

One of the things I noticed about Jewish people, and I do apologize for generalizing but it has to be said. Jewish people almost always have a profound understanding of humanity. Throughout history Jewish people have always been at the forefront of human rights and activism. I still have alot to learn but the Jewish values shine through what little I know about Judaism and Jewish people and your history. šŸ™