r/JewsOfConscience Jul 10 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

Hi guys! I'm an Arab Muslim. Always enjoy passing by here.

My question relates to this video.

Quick intro: you can skip to the question part if it's TLDR.

So I think we all saw the Lucas Gage video where he uses a gladius to "make his ancestors proud" while tearing up the Israeli flag. He very quickly starts antisemitic tropes and blames everything on "The Jews" even mentions 9/11 🤦‍♂️ - - I'm atleast pleased to say that most of the comments under that video were calling it out.

Someone combined that video with one from Shahid Bolsen, he's an American Muslim revert who has interesting insights on politics and Islam.

Here's the question

On the topic of Antizionism being conflated with antisemitism.

Shahid speaks about the identity of Jewishness.

Classically, he says, in Islam and rabbinically, "a Jew" is one who follows and participates in Judaism. That the identity should stop there but it doesn't. He adds that the Historian Shlomo Sand says that non-religious Jews identify strongly as Jewish in one or more of 3 ways:

  1. By "Jewish blood" (which is more or less an antisemitic concept according to Sand)

  2. By the collective trauma of the Holocaust.

  3. The State of Israel. Which presents them with a place to go to be safe.

Shahid adds that this means that the non-religious Jewish identity is a construct forced upon them by Antisemites.

A Jewish person who does not believe or follow Judaism is still Jewish because non-Jews who hate Jews insist that they are Jews and won't allow them to be anything else.

I started to understand Jewishness as an Ethno-religious identity but I'd like to know how accurate Shahid's conclusion is to understand the concept further.

I am aware of the origins of JudenHass and Antisemitism which caused a shift.

Hate towards the people of the Jewish faith became a racist association between a language and race which made hate against Jewish people unavoidable. Even if a Jewish person became Christian, they'd still be considered Jewish.

Any opinions, thoughts or insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys.

Edit: clarification

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u/Conscientious_Jew Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24 edited Jul 10 '24

The person in the video, in my opinion, should not speak about things he doesn't understand. He should at least do a proper research (mentioning Zand implies he didn't). Worse of all, he has the audacity to say who is a Jew and who isn't. Should a Jew say whether or not a Muslim is still a Muslim even if he doesn't follow the five pillars of Islam? I think that debate should be left to the Umma.

If you go by the bible, and by orthodox Judaism (I am not familiar enough with the reform, conservative and anything else) you are a Jew if your mother is a Jew. I personally don't think it should be limited to the mother. Even if you convert to another religion, you are still a Jew. You can't escape...

Shahid ignores the fact that Judaism is also a culture and an identity. There are already secular Jews or semi-secular Jews in the 18th century. Before Zionism. Though most of them still knew more about religion than many secular Jews know toady (and probably more than some religious ones as well).

I can be a Jewish person without believing that Moses was a prophet, fasting on the Yom Kippur, giving alms, saying שמע ישראל, or doing a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, and so on. I think he projects his Islamic beliefs on Judaism, as he said "according to Islam". I don't know why he thinks that what Islam have to say on the topic matters here.

Quoting Shlomo Zand's book, "When and How the Jewish People were Invented", is being lazy. Zand is not an expert on the period or area he talks about in that book, nor is he a biblical scholar. Zand is an expert on modern France, and especially the history of the left and cinema. His other book which I think he implicitly talk about is "When and How I stopped being a Jew". It's an interesting read, but it's just his opinion about how to reimagine identity. If that person really wanted to learn there are other people who are experts on that topic.

I am Jewish because I imagine myself as part of a larger community, connected by history, tales, tradition, collective memory, in my case language (Hebrew, but Ladino, Yiddish, and others are just as valid), part of my imagery and the metaphors I would use, knowing Hershale or Joha (if you know another one please share), food, my name, and there are many more (didn't mention the holidays because I rarely celebrate those). Basically, I am a Jew because I was told I am one, and because I 'practice' that identity on a daily basis, without believing that there is a god. Some Jews would say otherwise, but it's a Jewish debate.

Lastely, Antisemitism definitely 'helped' Judaism by forcing Jews to unite, even if they aren't religious, because of the shared threat, but that's a reductionist view imo. People also like tradition, the sense of community, communal support, they understand religion differently than others and translate it differently in day to day life, and so on. Zionism was influenced by antisemitism, there's no question about it, and it is still influenced by it today. But the connection to the land is not a Zionist invention, and even if you somehow remove antisemitism from the world Israel won't disappear.

If Shahid cares about the Jewishness of Jews he should go read on the subject. He would find many answers. Maybe then he would ask himself whether or not it's his place to take sides in this debate.

There are probably more things to be said, but I'll stop here.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24

Shahid ignores the fact that Judaism is also a culture and an identity.

Yes!! This is how I understand it. Across the world the many Jewish communities and the disapora are so varied and vibrant but they still have a uniqueness that made them Jewish.

Lastely, Antisemitism definitely 'helped' Judaism by forcing Jews to unite, even if they aren't religious, because of the shared threat, but that's a reductionist view imo.

Thank you so much for adding this part. This is an extension of my question that I didn't know how to ask.

If Shahid cares about the Jewishness of Jews he should go read on the subject. He would find many answers. Maybe then he would ask himself whether or not it's his place to take sides in this debate

I hope he does. His opinions are impactful on some Muslims.

Should a Jew say whether or not a Muslim is still a Muslim even if he doesn't follow the five pillars of Islam? I think that debate should be left to the Umma.

You know what's funny about this? In Islam you're not allowed to question the faith of another Muslim. Ironic right?

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this. It really helps me understand this more.

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u/Conscientious_Jew Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24

I hope he does. His opinions are impactful on some Muslims.

I wish people on both sides would learn about the culture and religion of the others. Especially if they are broadcasting their opinions to millions.

You know what's funny about this? In Islam you're not allowed to question the faith of another Muslim. Ironic right?

This could be a good example to show what Shahid did.

I could tell you that you are wrong because the Kharijites say that if you don't follow the Koran to the letter you are not a Muslim. Now obviously they are a small sect from the early days of Islam, that mostly died off, but I could present them as the norm and mischaracterize Islamic beliefs.

Another option would be to present Sayyid Qutb, or any other Salafi scholar with a similar approach, who thought that the secular Arab regimes (e.g. Egypt) as the new Jahiliyyah that needs to be fought against, and maybe implying that they are not Muslims, and pass that as the norm. It is a good example, because I know Sayyid Qutb works probably as much as Shahid knows Zand or Rabbinical thought, that is to say very little. So I could easily misrepresent it.

In Islam, and any other religion, it is really hard to group what people think and say "Islam is this..." or "In Judaism they believe that...". It changes over time and space. For example, are Alevis in Turkey Muslim? if so, are they Sunni or Shia, neither, or something else? Erdoğan said last year during elections that "We don't have a religion called Alevi, we only have one religion, Islam" ("Bizim Alevilik diye bir dinimiz yok, tek dinimiz var İslam"). Basically dismissing them completely and saying that there is a single Islam, and when he says Islam he means orthodox Sunni Islam.

I am not sure if the last example is a good one but what I wanted to say is that identity, and deciding on the one-true-faith and who is the representative of a religion is complex. I run away from this argument by saying that there is no representative and no one should speak for the whole group.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24

Perfectly put. You show a deep understanding of Islam and it's history as well as a wider understanding of the reality of humanity. It's very admirable. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

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u/Conscientious_Jew Post-Zionist Jul 10 '24

No problem. I am very close to finishing my BA in middle eastern history (and starting MA), so it's always a pleasure to chat with someone from the neighborhood. If you have further questions feel free to ask here or in a DM.

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u/GreenIguanaGaming Arab Muslim Ally Jul 10 '24

I will definitely reach out! Congratulations in advance! The same invitation is open to you as well, if there is anything I can help with. (I'm a Jafaari Twelver Muslim from Kuwait, a physician)