r/JewsOfConscience • u/YaZainabYaZainab • May 27 '24
Discussion Why are there Jewish people who are perfectly lovely and liberal yet borderline genocidal and sociopathic when it comes to Gaza?
My therapist is this way and no amount of talking about it helps. He’s said it’s Palestinians fault they don’t have their own state because they refuse Israel’s gracious offers time and time again, if they just stopped fighting they’d have their own state, he doesn’t think Jewish peoples lives are more worthy than others but is continuously anti-ceasefire, accusing Israel of killing children is anti-Semitic blood libel, etc.
Edit: Your flair system is broken and I can’t flare properly.
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u/mcgillhufflepuff Ashkenazi May 27 '24
I wouldn't consider them perfectly lovely if they hold these views...but propaganda is effective when you grow up hearing it in Hebrew school and/or Jewish Day School.
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May 27 '24
exactly, it’s everywhere, absolutely everywhere
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u/mcgillhufflepuff Ashkenazi May 27 '24
High school me was banned from saying my views when visiting some of my family members who are Palestinians are terrorists types
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u/BeautifulCup4 May 27 '24
omg not therapist
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u/LeMeuf Non-Jewish Ally May 27 '24
OP needs a new therapist. They’re not supposed to inject their own views onto their clients. Imagine if straight therapists told gay clients to just think differently, or childless therapists told parents their struggles with parenthood are their own choosing.
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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
Agreed. I'm very lucky to have a Muslim therapist who understands what I'm going through right now. If anyone is affected by what's happening in Gaza rn, Muslim group Ruh Care is offering free therapy sessions in most US states and Canadian provinces. Not sure the sub's policy on links but you can look it up. It's the only thing keeping me even partially sane right now.
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u/LeMeuf Non-Jewish Ally May 27 '24
There’s a core tenant in most talk therapies called “unconditional positive regard”. It’s not that the therapist thinks all beliefs their clients hold are good per se, it’s the idea that the therapist can understand why a client would hold that belief based on their worldview and experiences.
OP’s therapist is condemning beliefs without trying to understand why OP would hold those beliefs. It’s quite literally bad therapy. It’s the equivalent of a therapist telling a client their religious beliefs are wrong, and the therapists religious beliefs are correct.
Also.. I’m so glad you mentioned resources on culturally informed therapy. Everyone deserves to seek and find help without being condemned.7
u/YaZainabYaZainab May 27 '24
He does try to talk about why I have these beliefs and always connects it to my upbringing that I resonate with the underdog, feel a heightened sense of morality, anger at onlookers from childhood experiences. We’ve argued about other stuff too.
I have feelings to women and he pushes me to marry a woman and come out as lesbian even though I feel like it’s religiously wrong.
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u/LeMeuf Non-Jewish Ally May 27 '24
Ah good I’m a bit less worried for you my friend.
I’m gay, it can be a very tough and lonely place to be when you are grappling with feelings and weighing them against societal expectations. What helped me was to just take it day by day and lead with love in all things. Learn to trust yourself to be gentle and loving to yourself, and as your trust grows watch things fall into place. Sending love your way.3
u/youareabigdumbphuckr May 28 '24
"He does try to talk about why I have these beliefs and always connects it to my upbringing that I resonate with the underdog, feel a heightened sense of morality, anger at onlookers from childhood experiences"
wait........................... not everyone has these feelings???????????
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u/finiteloop72 Ashkenazi May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24
We are raised with these beliefs growing up, it’s a product of our environment. As a kid I remember my dad regurgitating these exact points. Then going to Hebrew school starting at age 8 and hearing about Israel back then. Judaism leans heavily into the idea of returning to Jerusalem, and our scripture has been like that hundreds if not thousands of years before Zionism and modern-day Israel was a thing. Many of us go to Jewish sleep away camps and so on, and so Israel becomes as much of a Jewish concept as Passover, bar/bat mitzvahs, and so on.
It is rare for someone to go out of their way to really investigate the other side of the story, most people in general will accept what they are told and raised with until challenged. For me it was only when I met Palestinians and a Nakba survivor told me their story that I finally understood. And unfortunately this was after I had already gone on birthright.
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u/Wolpard May 27 '24
Zionist propaganda conflating the land of Israel with the state of Israel is so damn effective.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally May 27 '24
Sounds like your therapist needs a therapist more than you do, the brainwashing is big boss level material with this person.
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May 27 '24
I'd say Jewish boomers more precisely, speaking from personal experience Jews who are millennials and gen-z are much different.
They've been fed the same lies their entire life, also they see Israel in a different light. They see Israel as the 1948-1967 Israel, where the world viewed Israel as the plucky small Jewish state almost wiped out by its neighbors (I know that's not really historically accurate, but that was essentially the view of Israel across the spectrum). They still to this day see Israel in this light, fighting for its existence as a small country. That's not the case anymore, Israel is the most powerful country in the region and has been ethnically cleansing a stateless/defenseless people.
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u/proletergeist Jewish Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
I know several liberal, very pro-Israel Millennials. What they all have in common is that they bought in to religious school/sleep away camp culture as kids and most grew up to become Jewish professionals in Jewish nonprofit institutions. The indoctrination runs deep and every generation has people with bad politics in it.
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u/screedor May 27 '24
I lost a friend to Birthright. Like they went over and came back just a bad person. We were all fine at dinner a week before and then all of a sudden he was persecuted and I could never know his struggles.
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u/GowronSonOfMrel May 27 '24
Birthright changes mf'ers... generally for the weirder. Maybe not good or bad, but a lot come back just fuckin' weird.
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May 27 '24
That's just my perspective as a gen-z. Personally, the only ardent Israel supporters I know are orthodox, chabad, or anyone with very strong direct ties to the country, say through some very close family.
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u/jordan_s_k Ashkenazi May 27 '24
Don’t forget Jewish day schools! The most staunch Zionists I know went to Jewish day schools. It makes sense - private school kids growing up going to school only with other Jews would be Zionists.
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u/Capsulate_Ion May 27 '24
As someone born in the 80s and who loved to read, I can assure you Israel has never been viewed as a “small plucky state fighting for its existence”. It is only in the last 2 decades that the Israeli propaganda reached the level of gaslighting where the West seemed to have forgotten Palestine existed. Before that, Israel has always been viewed as the belligerent entity, pushing Palestinians against the wall. I still remember when before the creation of Hamas, analysts used to warn that the way Israel was operating is going to lead to suicide bombing attacks. And lo and behold, they started a few months later.
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u/Ret_4_the_library Jul 21 '24
As someone born in '53, I think you need to look up media before your time. There you ẅill certainly. find lots of material about 'small plucky state fighting for its existence'. I recall it was very strong during the 1967 war. See if you can find the movie Exodus. I'm sure you've heard the movie's soundtrack. Ålso, don't forget the effect of the holocaust. People horrified by the holocaust looked at the creation of Israel as a way to solve the problem of anti-semitism, and to assuage their feelings of guilt.
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u/Capsulate_Ion Aug 13 '24
Thankyou for the suggestion. I went and looked for media from the years you asked for 👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼
https://x.com/shaykhsulaiman/status/1823101904572039180?s=46&t=IY8xzTKlBmtRy-FuiDaeQw
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 27 '24
I think Israel's current military situation is quite perilous. Peace could be had, but there's no popular appetite for the compromises peace would involve, and the alternative route is indeed very dangerous, if you ask me.
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u/frozenrussian May 27 '24
Too bad, so sad! Too late for Israeli crocodile tears. They should have thought about all that before they murdered Yitzhak Rabin!
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u/wetbirds4 Non-Jewish Ally May 27 '24
First of all, you need a new therapist. And it’s because Palestinians have been so dehumanized over the decades some people literally don’t think they deserve to live. Anytime you find yourself not wanting an entire group of people to live, it should be a very clear sign you’ve gone too far
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u/farbissina_punim Jewish May 27 '24
I'm currently trying to contend with this "perfectly nice" Zionist. I've never seen her be unkind or cruel. She's like a cartoon woodland creature. Somewhat recently, she traveled to Israel TO BAKE AND HAND OUT HAMENTASHEN TO IDF SOLDIERS FOR PURIM. Because they couldn't be near their families for the holiday and she wanted them to feel supported. Not simply handing out food, but taking the time to lovingly bake for them. And I've been unable to figure out what to say to her since.
I know people are going to say "Well, then she's not perfectly lovely then, is she?" I'm Jewish. I know that nice is different than good. But she's a gentle and good person who is behaving in the most preposterous fashion. I know that Zionism indoctrinates people. This shit runs deep.
Edit: OMG sorry about your therapist. What the hell?
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u/Wolpard May 27 '24
Fear and indoctrination.
Our community still has so much trauma following the holocaust, an ethnostate for our own self preservation is appealing even at the cost of others.
A lot of hardcore Zionists truly believe Palestinians are bent on wiping us out the same way the Nazis were. This was the thought behind most of my Hebrew school indoctrination. Israel was the answer to guarantee our safety.
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May 27 '24
humans stupidity, what can i tell you? i don’t get them too. like their humanity stops when it comes to « arabs », and to muslims
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u/chosenandfrozen May 27 '24
Nazis loved their children and were kind to their friends too. Having an evil ideology doesn’t mean you will always be a mustache-twirling bad guy at all times.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 27 '24
As a non-Jew (though with Jewish relatives) who is trying to have these conversations in the midst of an intense Congressional primary where I live, I very much experience the same feeling. Men I've known a long time and happily worked with on other issues now seem totally unrelatable, like we're on completely different wavelengths. And the position I've been advocating is the modest one of wanting a lot more humanitarian assistance to enter the Gaza strip.
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u/YaZainabYaZainab May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24
Same, I can’t even convince him of Truah Rabbis which is a ceasefire Zionist group. He says they aren’t frum and are ultra liberals.
Forgot: Jstreet. They’re anti-Israel liberals. Breaking the Silence. Propaganda.
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u/BalsamicBasil Non-Jewish Ally May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24
The documentary Israelism (2023) - which follows two Ashkenazi Jewish Americans raised with Zionism who become disenchanted - does a great job explaining this in a kind of introductory 101 manner...There are a lot of screenings (mostly free) around the world, and the documentary should be available again to stream any day now...I believe Israelism was supposed to move from their website to a larger streaming platform.
There are various other issues where this side of people comes out, though they aren't all exactly the same. It's mainly an issue of propaganda, ignorance, and fear. Like white feminists who can't see how criminal justice policy that favors over-policing and overly harsh convictions and sentencing (including crimes of sexual violence) is oppressive and disproportionately targets POC, especially Black men. Or Trans-Exclusionary Radical "Feminists" (TERFS) who think trans people threaten women's rights/safety. It's all fear-mongering and ignorance, inflamed by imperialist/pro-institutional power politicians and media who capitalize on sensationalism and social justice "wars." People can't see that we can only be safe and thrive in intersectionality.
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u/Five-Fingered-Sloth May 27 '24
Let’s not forget that Zionists have successfully created a media blackout for what is really going on in Gaza. I bet your therapist genuinely doesn’t appreciate the extent of the genocide and famine. Your therapist is probably liberal about other things because bad policies/oppression either affect people they know or they have learned about other people’s plights. But if your therapist can’t learn about the pain of the Palestinian people from sources he trusts, he will remain a victim of Zionist propaganda.
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u/TheUnknownNut22 Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
The utter arrogance and entitlement is unbelievable. Imagine someone stealing your car and then telling you you are being unreasonable when you object to them "owning" it and using it.
No, Israel does not have a right to exist. There needs to be one state equally for all people called "Free Palestine".
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u/optmstcnihilist Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
Based on what grounds did you classify them as "lovely"?
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u/Wolpard May 27 '24
Probably based on other values they hold. A lot of otherwise lefty Jews are very right wing when it comes to Israel.
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u/optmstcnihilist Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
And how do they react when they see videos of civilians and children in pieces after an Israeli drone or jet bomb their refugee camp, they say YES, LET'S GO ISRAEL, THOSE KIDS DESERVE IT?
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u/Wolpard May 27 '24
Easy- they blame it on Hamas for using human shields. After all, the IDF is the "most moral military in the world".
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u/YaZainabYaZainab May 27 '24
Yes, it’s all Hamas’s fault and they’re an existential threat to Israel, so Israel can annihilate them at the cost of however many civilian deaths are necessary .
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u/New_Fox_1088 Jew-ish May 27 '24
It’s basically bc nationalism targets identity rather than political beliefs, so no matter whether someone is “liberal” or “conservative” or whatever they’re still extremely susceptible to it.
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u/s8n_1 Jew of Color May 27 '24
Your answer is in your own question. It’s another microcosm of neo-liberalism.
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u/Content_Ant9867 Jewish Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
my ex friend is like this, she also pretends to be liberal about palestine/gaza but the moment you criticise israel in a way she doesn’t like she completely loses it and becomes completely unhinged
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u/skateboardjim Jewish Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
Most Republican WASPs, believe it or not, don’t believe they’re the bad guys. They can be perfectly pleasant- and even appear to have tolerant social attitudes- interpersonally, and believe something cartoonishly evil about a group of people thousands of miles away from them. Every demographic is capable of hatred and bigotry, including Jews.
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u/screedor May 27 '24
So he agrees that they should allow right of return, full Palestinian rights, and those in charge who constantly have called to periodically "mow the grass" need to go to The Hague and then if Hamas doesn't release the hostages.....wait this has nothing to do with kids, they are killing kids.
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u/YaZainabYaZainab May 27 '24
I know this is a joke. No, he thinks Israel should exist as a Jewish ethnostate and also is in favor of West Bank settlements and says they should also go to Israel.
This guy is actually a very very well known therapist. He’s very popular on some subs here.
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u/screedor May 27 '24
Leave him. At some point it's like the German saying about Nazis and dinner. I dropped a few friends because they just said it was complicated. Absolutely let him know why and then drop him.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist May 27 '24
Nationalistic chauvinism is an incurable disease.
The fact that you think he is perfectly lovely and liberal is because you have not broached certain subjects with him.
Dig into the next layer — see how he feels about the equality of all people, colonialism, imperialism, gay-rights, workers rights.
If he is genuine — you will find other manifestation of his anti-egalitarianism.
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u/Interesting-Law9174 May 27 '24
Israeli state media and private international media (again just funded by state actors) hold major influence. it's not really a situation unique to Israel but they have state propaganda down to a science.
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u/IkeDeez May 27 '24
I'm interested in getting some therapy, but I would die if my therapist was a Zionist.
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u/HoHoHoChiLenin May 27 '24
To put it simply, liberalism is an inherently inconsistent ideology, especially as it approaches the other end of the liberalism-fascism spectrum.
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u/bolsheviklove May 28 '24
There were Germans during 1940s who im sure were pleasant people when u got to speaking to them yet they supported the Holocaust
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally May 28 '24
Just because your therapist says he doesn’t value jewish lives more doesn’t mean he doesn’t harbor that view. Obviously if he feels bad for “innocent israelis” and yet his reaction to Gazans being massacred are a “huh well collateral damage so sad” he views their lives as expendable
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u/Arkovia May 27 '24 edited May 27 '24
American and Western society is also very bigoted towards Middle Easterners, Arabs, Persians, to the point that they are dehumanized into mindless hordes, predators, traffickers, and bloodthirsty. (See movies like Iron Man(1), Executive Decision, Taken, Olympus Has Fallen, or TV shows like 24.)
People are not immune to propaganda, regardless of their identity.
This bombardment of propaganda desensitizes people to the humanity of the people portrayed that it develops into depraved indifference. Depraved indifference expresses itself in the reliance of thought-terminating clichés, idioms, superstitions, racism, and low effort thinking. The only time such depraved indifference is challenged is if it personally affects the subject; for example: Dick Cheney being sympathetic to LGBT issues (or not as hostile) because of his gay daughter.
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u/velvetjacket1 May 27 '24
Brainwashing and propagandizing, and along with this, deeply ingrained racist beliefs about Arabs, Muslims, and especially Palestinians along with the sense that these beliefs are just true, not actually racist if there is any attempt to interrogate the beliefs, and on top of everything else, a spectacular amount of cognitive dissonance.
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u/Tomusina May 27 '24
My boomer mother who does not fit OPs description posited: if Trump puts us in camps where would we go if there is no Israel?
Let’s not get into the specific details of this suggestion, please focus on the broader point; I believe that might be an answer to OPs question
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u/Fun_Pension_2459 May 27 '24
I think that we have to understand it from the perspective of brainwashing and trauma. Jews are raised to believe that we are moments away from imminent total destruction always. From a very young age we are repeatedly reminded by our elders that we are outsiders (I was raised by Holocaust survivors who always said "it doesn't matter how much you pretend to belong, Hitler will always find you" - It took me a very long time to break away from that mindset)
There is a cultiness in the ways that Zionism is taught and hammered into people's consciousness. It is genuine brainwashing, using fear.
When people feel like they are facing existential threat, they let go all the pretense of humanity and go into a fight or flight mode.
I am not defending this for a minute, but sometimes I do feel sorry for people I know who are now so terrified that they can hardly leave their homes. And it's our fault. We are choosing to embrace this victim mindset and we seem to forget that we are not the only vulnerable minorities, and we are least likely to face threat, being white and privileged mostly.
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u/unreceivedogma May 27 '24
A therapist, lol. I’d find a new one. I would not want to work with a guy whose analytical skills are so flaccid.
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u/exemplarytrombonist Jewish Communist May 27 '24
Zionist brainwashing in Jewish institutions. I was raised in them. It's hard to break out of.