r/JewsOfConscience • u/ca_peach Non-Jewish Ally • Apr 30 '24
Discussion I’m tired of the gaslighting by Zionists pretending like Jewish voices aren’t putting their lives, bodies, and careers on the line for Palestinian emancipation, so I wanted to highlight some Jewish voices that inspire me every day as an ally.
- Medea Benjamin
- Norman Finkelstein
- Katie Halper
- Gabor Maté
- Ilan Pape
- Miko Peled
- Daniel Maté
- Nora Barrows-Friedman
- Naomi Klein
- Matt Lieb
- Antony Loewenstein
Please feel free to share other Jewish voices for Palestinian emancipation that inspire you. Let's uplift! <3
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u/newgoliath Jewish Communist May 01 '24
Miko Peled! Son of an IDF general, grandson of a signer of the Israeli Declaration of Independence. Now organizing for Palestine.
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u/nada8 Apr 30 '24
Jay Shapiro, Rabbi Jaacov Shapiro, Rabbi Dovid Feldman
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u/ca_peach Non-Jewish Ally Apr 30 '24
I’m not familiar with Jay Shapiro and just looked him up. His blog looks so interesting! Thank you for letting me know about him 😄
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u/nada8 May 01 '24
I watched all his series and they’re all wonderful - last one was very touching. Also check Miko Peled, The General’s son on YouTube and podcasts
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally May 01 '24
Of course Noam Chomsky. He has this reputation as a cult figure and a grumpy old man, but he is probably the most important linguist of the 20th Century. He might know everything about everything
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u/New_Fox_1088 Jew-ish May 01 '24
Alon Mizrahi and Avi Shlaim are both amazing as well. Peter Beinart is a bit less progressive than I personally would like, but I think he’s a great starter source for people just starting to question Zionism
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u/ca_peach Non-Jewish Ally May 01 '24
Just bookmarked Alon’s blog! I’m finding out about so many new people to learn from! Thank you 😄
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew May 01 '24
Zionists do recognize that there are Jews doing all that. They just denigrate them as foolish and naive (eg saying things like "chickens for KFC"), uneducated, or on the margins etc.
There's also an attempt at claiming JVP isn't really run by Jews. There's some screenshot of a supposed tweet from several accounts saying "as Jews..." as evidence. even though the tweet had nothing to do with JVP, didn't mention JVP, could have just been copy pasted etc. Though not sure how much traction that gets outside the low brow crowd who read the Jewish Press, Arutz Sheva, and follow Caroline Glick's Twitter account.
Pointing to some random public intellectuals and scholars, journalists, or activists won't change that perception. It actually reinforces it because you're pointing to a small group of people who you could list by name. That looks like exceptions who prove a rule. You'd be better off pointing to the hundreds of unknown Jews who blocked Grand Central Terminal during rush hour on a Friday, or testimonies from people at the encampments talking about the disproportionately large Jewish presence.
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u/AugustIsFallling Jewish Communist May 01 '24
I’ve seen the “JVP isn’t Jewish” conspiracy from lots of Jewish friends. One of the claims is that a moderator of their Facebook group is Muslim, something about where JVP is headquartered alluding to it being a Muslim country, and my favorite extreme criticism that all the Rabbis on the board are reconstructionist or reform so because other sects aren’t represented it’s not really Jewish. That one is my favorite because it’s always my reform Jewish friends that I see complaining about it.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew May 01 '24
That one is my favorite because it’s always my reform Jewish friends that I see complaining about it.
lol, but it doesn't surprise me. I've seen how non-Orthodox Jews nearly venerate Orthodox rabbis while looking down on ones from other denominations, including their own ones. Not sure if this is true in general, but from what I've personally seen, it even looks like outreach/kiruv rabbis depend on that
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u/AugustIsFallling Jewish Communist May 01 '24
Haha yeah. Nothing like my pansexual polyamorous friends with tattoos and piercings venerating the most orthodox. 🙄
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May 01 '24
Jen Perelman
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u/ca_peach Non-Jewish Ally May 01 '24
Thank you for sharing!
Here’s a video from Jen’s YouTube channel if, like me, you want to learn more
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist May 01 '24
Hey OP, this is a great reminder even if it's imperfect. Thank you for putting this subject in our minds.
In fighting is an end game debate. For now anyone and everyone saying no to Israel is on the same side. It's good to remember how many of us there are.
Frankly if one can grift off a left wing position we have to be pretty popular.
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u/openstandards Non-Jewish Agnostic Ally May 01 '24
Edwin Samuel Montagu ( Extremely critical of the Balfour agreement).
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u/Moostronus Jewish Anti-Zionist May 01 '24
Eli Valley, Rebecca Pierce, Sophie Ellman-Golan, my sibling, my partner, my friends.
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u/TylerDurden1985 Jewish Anti-Zionist May 01 '24
Bernie Sanders
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May 01 '24
This one is interesting, because he is Zionist. He advocates for human rights for Palestinians, and is opposed to the abuses that Israel commits against Palestinians. However, he is unambiguously supportive of the right for Israel to exist.
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u/Alon945 May 01 '24
I don’t know if that’s the same thing really, maybe it’s my lack of clarity of exactly what we really mean by “Zionist”
I don’t want Israel to continue to exist in its current form. And I don’t really care what you call the area that is Palestine as long as the lived reality of the Palestinians means they have a right to return to all of the land that is now Israel etc. But I don’t think you can logistically or even reasonably just kick out the non Palestinian population.
So if you’re not in favor of full decolonization, kicking the non Palestinian people who have lived there out, then you’re a Zionist? Or are you saying Bernie’s stance extends further than that?
Because if that’s Bernie’s stance I think this is a reasonable position to have. Idk maybe I’m wrong.
I do actually want to engage in this topic in good faith so I don’t want to get downvoted to hell lol
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u/No_Bandicoot_2618 May 01 '24
Decolonisation doesn’t mean the non-native people have to leave. It means the state is dismantled. The people that want to live as equals can stay. From what I’ve heard and read, that’s what Palestinians seem to mostly want. For Israelis, they want Palestinians to disappear forever
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u/Alon945 May 01 '24
I agree that it is what the term acrually means but I see people say this to mean everyone who is non Palestinian has to leave. That’s why I was seeking conversation on this topic
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May 01 '24
How do you mean “full decolonization?”
What if someone…
• Deplores the way that Israel treats, and has historically treated, the Palestinians
• Does not deny the ethnic cleansing that the Nakba was
• Argues for Palestinian statehood, self-determination, and human rights
But at the same time…
• Recognises both Jewish and Palestinian indigenousness to the land
• Accepts that many Jews who fled Europe or elsewhere in the Middle East for Israel did so because they had no choice, and were escaping extreme persecution
• Believes that, given the acrimony between the two groups, the most peaceful path forward is likely a two-state solution…because, in the absence of one, one group could feasibly persecute the other
How do you classify this person? Are they a “Zionist?”
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u/Alon945 May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
Well that’s what I’m asking? I don’t know if this rhetorical or not lol
If they are by this metric then that’s a pretty wide range of what constitutes a Zionist making the term sort of useless?
I can see the distinction between a liberal Zionist and a conservative Zionist, but I wouldn’t characterize Bernie sanders as even a liberal one.
I would not say Jewish people have Indigenous claim to the land of Israel even if they were there thousands of years ago. I don’t think that gives the Jewish population the right to take that land back from people who did not take it from them.
but the term indigenous means what exactly in this context? Palestinians have the last couple thousand years of living there to that claim. But to me that part of it doesn’t even matter. They’ve been there for a long long time now for all intents and purposes it has been their land for that time. British territory or otherwise.
The only reason I’m breaking down these semantics is because I want to understand what people mean when they say these things. Which of these points makes Bernie sanders a Zionist?
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May 01 '24
So where are Jewish people indigenous to? The countries that committed genocide against them quite literally because they had DNA not native to those countries?
Of course, “indigenous” does not mean “has a right to commit atrocities against people living there”
All Zionist means is a belief in the right of Israel to exist. Which Bernie surely does, as progressive as he is.
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u/Alon945 May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
Fair enough to your last point. I don’t really know what you’re getting at with the rest sorry.
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u/AlphaPlanAnarchist May 01 '24
Did you get an answer? It sounds like the two state solution is what the person you asked qualifies as Zionism but frankly I can't be sure.
Much like US "Land Back" my understanding is the solution lies in taking power from colonizers and hoping the new power structure doesn't harm ANY of the current inhabitants the way colonization did. I think one state is the only way to make that happen.
I am unsure whether the earlier person was saying they believe two states are necessary to safety or if they think Sanders feels that way. If it's the latter I think that's the Zionism. It also sounds like the distinction from your belief that everyone who lives in current Palestine should have access to the land within current Israel?
My apologies if this is unneeded or inaccurate. I am also interested and this is difficult to talk about offline. A sore subject for everyone paying attention.
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u/Alon945 May 01 '24 edited May 01 '24
Yeah it’s pretty exhausting broadly speaking so I feel the sore subject aspect. And your comment is totally fine! I appreciate being able to talk about this like somewhat normal people and not have to argue with people lol.
I don’t know if this person answered anything truly because they keep just asking questions back to me.
I’m of two minds about it. I think two states still qualifies as some form of Zionism however I don’t really think it’s the same thing as a Netanyahu or even a typical liberal Zionist by default. People use the term “Zionist” disparagingly and there seems to be a wide range of people that term can be applied to. I just don’t think sanders deserves the sort of ire that designation comes with.
I think one can make the argument that everyone who isn’t Palestinian should go elsewhere. But I don’t think this is logistically feasible and is a much harder sell than even a one state solution. Even if it was logistically possible I’m not convinced it makes sense to remove people who were born there from their homes.
I think there are a lot of people sanders included who probably feel that a two state solution is the only thing that’s going to be possible. My confusion/frustration with the broader discussion is about what it really means and how we be productive when discussing it.
It’s also why I find the the term “indigenous” confusing in this context becuase no one ever gives a time frame for what would constitute someone as indigenous. I know a lot of Zionists belabor semantics to distract from the core issue so I always want to center Palestinian liberation. But it seems like unnecessary rhetorical baggage when all that reallly matters is that Palestinians have been there thousands of years. They weren’t the ones who removed the Jewish population from the area and it’s such a long stretch of time that it is the Palestinians rightful home. Genocide is wrong regardless and their homes being taken from them for the past 80 years is wrong.
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u/No_Bandicoot_2618 May 01 '24
I wouldn’t classify that person as a zionist. The JVP website has a great page on the definitions
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May 01 '24
How does their definitions exclude this person from being Zionist. Their page defines Zionism in three ways:
Political: When people refer to “Zionism” today, this is often what they mean. Founded by 19th Century thinker Theodore Herzl, it sees the “Jewish problem” as having a solution in a “Jewish state.” As nationalism rose in Europe, many, including Herzl, saw Jews as outsiders to the nation, unable or unwilling to assimilate or be fully accepted as members of the nation-state. According to Herzl, this “problem” should be solved by a community of nations by establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.
Religious: Many, but not all, forms of Zionism have their roots in theological interpretations. It is important to note that this form of Zionism is not exclusive to Jewish religious traditions. For example, some evangelical Christian denominations believe that in order to facilitate the second coming of Christ, Jews must “gather” in Israel as part of Biblical prophecy.
Cultural: Most often attributed to Herzl’s contemporary, Ahad Ha’am (Asher Ginsberg), this form of Zionism called for a spiritual and cultural center for Jewish people in Palestine, but not for a “Jewish state” in the same way Herzl did. Instead, this form of Zionism calls for Jews to share a national language and culture.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 01 '24
At least he's anti-genocide and he wants to shut down the U.S. shipments of arms to the Netanyahu regime.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 01 '24
Jen Perelman (candidate for Congress in South Florida)
Max Blumenthal (journalist)
Andy Levin (former Congressman from Michigan)
Bernie Sanders (U.S. Senator from Vermont and former Presidential candidate)
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u/Prior-Enthusiasm4613 May 01 '24
Jewish resistance to the Zionist ideology started since it's infancy. There's an amazing post on this sub that details it :
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May 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/ca_peach Non-Jewish Ally May 01 '24
Updated my list after doing some research.
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May 01 '24
who were the grifters outside of Blumenthal?
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May 01 '24
[deleted]
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May 01 '24
Yeh, Aaron Mate is apart of the Jimmy Dore crowd. His brother seems to be pretty cool and Katie Halper seems to be a pretty down person even through she has a podcast with Aaron.
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u/x_ButchTransfem_x May 01 '24
I don't mind Daniel but I think he's a dick for backing his brother Aaron, whenever he is mentioned on Bad Hasbara.
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 01 '24
Max Blumenthal despite not being perfect has done some difficult and important journalism, really moving the ball forward in some areas. It's because of him that we know how much atrocity propaganda was created surrounding the October 7, 2023 Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad attacks.
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May 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 01 '24
"Perhaps the Syrian government was stupid enough to use chemical weapons when it had every motive not to do so. And maybe it was so stupid that it has used them over and over again, flagrantly daring the West to intervene. Someday, Western governments might be able to produce enough evidence to demonstrate that this was the case. But so far, they have been unable to do so."
Truthdig, Max Blumenthal, Apr. 23, 2018, "Syria Controversy: Don’t Believe the Official Narrative"
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May 01 '24
[deleted]
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) May 01 '24
Yes, but either they occurred or they didn't. Surely after the U.S.'s experience in the second Iraq War we should be somewhat skeptical of assertions regarding Arabs with W.M.D.s.
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u/romanticaro Ashkenazi May 01 '24
tbh i’m not a huge fan of jvp. but i recognize the work they have done to make a clear jewish presence in the AZ movement.
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u/Delta_6207 Non-Jewish Ally May 01 '24
I may be going back quite a ways but Simon Dubnow. His ideas of Autonomism still fill me with hope everyday.
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u/Prize-Bobcat-9050 May 02 '24
-Chanda Prescod-Weinstein
-Alon Lee Green
-Rabbi David Mivasir
-Ami Dar
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u/SirPansalot Non-Jewish Ally Oct 07 '24
In the realm of Israeli academia, I would like to add Zeev Sternhell (RIP) and Oren Yiftachel (who pioneered the concept of ethnocracy in his groundbreaking original studies on Israel, which dearly cost him friends, jobs, and capital)
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u/Independent-Mall1032 Oct 28 '24
These people are humanists. Despite being Jews, they have been honest in their desire and their report. Nora Barrows-Friedman, Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky are my favorites. I love their humanity. May God reward them for their concern for peace.
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u/FreeTeaMe May 01 '24
How is anyone putting their lives on the line?
I understand the risks to career by taking a stand but I am not aware of mortal threats. Salman Rushdi put his life on the line. Please explain
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u/x_ButchTransfem_x May 01 '24
Locally, there are Jewish anti-Zionists getting doxxed in my hometown, getting death threats, losing their jobs etc but this is nothing compared to our Palestinian cousins in their diaspora or in Palestine.
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally Apr 30 '24
Gideon Levy