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u/finiteloop72 Ashkenazi Feb 13 '24
More like Stephen Dullard. The only excuse for the “Zionists = all Jews” nonsense is either willful ignorance or parroting the agenda of all Jews support Jewish nationalism.
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u/Nino_Nakanos_Slave Feb 14 '24
Personally, I feel touched seeing Rabbis and Jews joining Palestinian rally. At the same time I also feel sad, knowing that they must’ve went through hell with their communities. Being labeled as terrorist sympathisers to traitors even to the extent of getting death threats…
Such impressive and resilient people 🥲. Bless this people, praying that they are constantly protected… :’)
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u/A-CAB Feb 13 '24
I mean turns out people don’t want to date fascists. I guess that’s surprising to fascists???
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u/tinderthrowawayeleve Feb 13 '24
Wait until he finds out that there are more Christian Zionists in the US than Jews in the world
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u/shockk3r Ashkenazi Feb 14 '24
Guess I gotta go to my entire family I'm not actually Jewish now. Thank G-d, this random guy was here to inform me of that 🙏
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Feb 14 '24
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Feb 14 '24
I had a conversation with someone like that who started out trying to sound liberal and ended up at “well, I don’t see why the Palestinians don’t just accept everything about their current reality and then the Israelis would be nicer to them” and finished with, “well, at least we can talk about it, my parents generation all think Arabs are just animals.”
The cognitive dissonance was staggering.
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u/Particular-Crow-1799 Feb 14 '24
Zionists acting like they own the jewish community is the most blatant and shameless case of cultural appropriation in recent history
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u/PlinyToTrajan Non-Jewish Ally (Jewish ancestry & relatives) Feb 14 '24
I actually think it is unfair to lump all Zionists together into one big objectionable category. To me that reflects a lack of imagination about Zionism. Zionism is both a contemporary real-world political movement with a specific developmental trajectory, and an abstract concept. Any Jew in history who yearned for the reestablishment of a Jewish state in the Holy Land could be called a Zionist. The Jews in exile in Egypt could be called Zionists. Moses Maimonides could be called a Zionist. Not to mention Christian Zionists. And today, not everyone who desires a Jewish state in the Holy Land is at all equivalent in terms of standards of ethical behavior when pursuing that project.
However, my preferred term for the ugly political movement we see in the U.S.A. today is perhaps even more politically incorrect than Zionist. It's "pro-genocide ethnonationalists," e.g., "no pro-genocide ethnonationalists."
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u/ProjectiveSchemer Feb 14 '24
"Any Jew in history who yearned for the reestablishment of a Jewish state in the Holy Land could be called a zionist" you could call anyone involved in competitive running a racist, but it would be at odds with how most people use the word. Even Neturei Karta's eschatology involves a Jewish kingdom in Eretz Yisrael in the Messianic age, and of all the criticisms levelled at them I've never heard them called zionist.
The innovation of Jewish zionism in 19th century Europe was to try to establish such a state WITHOUT the prophesied Messiah, which was widely rejected both by Orthodox Jews who saw it as forcing G-d's hand and Reform Jews who saw Judaism as a religion rather than a nationality.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Feb 14 '24
I lived in Israel for a year, 25 years ago. Lived on a kibbutz. That’s where my unlearning of Zionist indoctrination started.
I still feel a connection, mostly to those Israelis working for a just peace. I grieved for those lost on Oct 7, particularly for the peaceniks.
I also understood immediately that the manner of attacks would trigger Israeli Holocaust trauma in a way that bombing those same communities to smithereens would not. That bothered me, in part because I thought it would set back the Palestinian cause instead of advancing it… assuming that it will move forward faster with Israelis than without them.
If someone says “No Zionists” in a dating profile, I’d suspect they mean me too. That they want someone who feels zero empathy or kinship with anyone in Israel. That’s not exactly the same as “no Jews,” but it’s not far off.
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Feb 14 '24
That seems an extreme reading to me. Most people who are anti-Zionist consider Zionism a colonial, supremacist ideology. That means being critical of a political system of oppression not having no empathy for innocent people who are harmed. Or dehumanising an entire populace because of where they were born.
The central part of the critique is the fact that Zionism as a political ideology privileges the rights and safety of one group of people over another.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Feb 14 '24
Interesting, that has not been my experience of most anti-Zionists so far. I’m surprised to hear you say the majority are that thoughtful and humanistic. So far my experience of people, whatever their politics on this, is that the majority are tribalistic and adversarial, allowing little room for the kind of empathy we’re talking about.
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Feb 14 '24
I know what you mean, I tend to think that how someone engages politically is just as important as what they believe.
We’re a tribal species to begin with - it’s a big scary world out there and firm boundaries make it seem safer and more manageable - and social media has exacerbated that, but I do think there exists a discourse that focuses on the damage systems do while allowing for empathy for those trapped within those systems.
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u/softwareidentity Anti-Zionist Feb 14 '24
no, it means no zionists lol... dno maybe you're a zionist?
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u/UntilTmrw Palestinian Feb 14 '24
There is such a thing as Christian and even Muslim Zionists. My neighbour is a Catholic and is a staunch Zionist. Once she found out we were Palestinians she straight up said “No you’re not.”