r/Israel • u/TheBeesBeesKnees • Oct 05 '24
The War - Discussion The female soldiers who predicted Oct. 7 say they are still being silenced
https://wapo.st/4dDJNJEMy sister is a lone soldier tatzpitanit and from the little I know it seems like a super important position to have in Israel. I don’t talk to her much about the war and such, cause she lives it on a daily basis, but seeing articles like this do make me sad. I mean hell, they’ve pretty much kept the Lebanon operations completely secret for an entire year.
I was curious if anyone wanted to share their experiences or experiences people close to them have had as observers, good or bad. Does this article, and the earlier Times of Israel article, map what you or people close to you have faced? Is this overblown?
Paywall-free: https://archive.is/GtbXD
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u/Elect_SaturnMutex Oct 05 '24
"All the while, Israel’s traditional field intelligence system in Gaza — powered by informers, field observers and forces near the border — was subject to constant budget cuts, according to an Aman adviser who previously served as a senior official in Shin Bet, the country’s internal security service. He spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss confidential matters"
Holy shit dude!
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u/nobaconator Fashy Zionist Clicktivist Oct 05 '24
Used to be in Combat Intelligence for the Southern Command. I have been shouting at the top of my lungs for years now that Bibi was taking everything he could from the Southern Command. All the focus was on Judea and Samaria. It was a miracle Southern Command was still functioning.
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u/ArtlessAbyss Oct 06 '24
Are you allowed to have your headgear on indoors, like the lady in the article? Apologise if it's not the right place to ask 😅
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u/ijustlurkhere_ Old man yells at cloud computing Oct 05 '24
All the while, Israel’s traditional field intelligence system in Gaza — powered by informers, field observers and forces near the border — was subject to constant budget cuts
Need more money for the ultra orthodox segment, obviously. Goldknopf needs a new gucci bag.
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u/HereFishyFishy4444 Israel-Italy Oct 05 '24
The field observers said they were confident that something big was about to happen because they understood their enemies. They knew their names and faces, as well as the intimate rhythm and routine of their days.
I think technology helps a ton, but there's nothing replacing intuition, especially paired with knowledge because it's something you watch every day for hours.
In so many other important areas professionals (of either gender) rely on intuition too.
It's really disgraceful not just for security but for how they're treated. They might actually be the only ones who can pick up on certain things, before Oct. 7 or now.
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u/Elect_SaturnMutex Oct 05 '24
Does anyone know why this isn't common knowledge?
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u/HereFishyFishy4444 Israel-Italy Oct 05 '24
Idk. In general many people seem to think that technology, Ai, whatever can replace human emotion. It can't.
Nature is developing humans for 100s of 1000s of years as a complex system. If there's a skilled, trained person doing this job, then she/he just "knows" when something seems off, and if it's off-okay or off-dangerous.
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u/pinksystems Oct 05 '24
there's a need for both solutions. we are symbiotic with our creations; ai is modelled after the same processes and cognitive control structures which humans use for generating ideas and analysis. they will evolve rapidly too... neural networks are not a static system.
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u/HereFishyFishy4444 Israel-Italy Oct 05 '24
modelled after the same processes and cognitive control structures which humans use for generating ideas and analysis
We think it is. Science is still pretty clueless about how the human brain, emotions etc. actually works.
It's just now been proven that emotions can non-verbially transfer between people, something that's known since a long time but that's still not understood how it works. Just one example.
You can't replace things like intuition because it's evolved since before actual humans even existed and we still don't understand it.
Technology is really important to support collection of data and many things beyond this. But compared to what humans are capable of it's nothing.
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u/Am-Yisrael-Chai Oct 05 '24
Which part are you questioning?
Edit to clarify: intuition/technology or the failure to take warnings seriously?
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u/peapie25 Oct 05 '24
i think "intuition" was probably being used to ignore tech/ real world observations. it was hubris not technology that let the idf down
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u/itamer76 Oct 05 '24
When the war is over I want a war tribunal for all the people responsible for this. If it was negligence or treason it will be known and they will be punished for it
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u/Hibiscus_Petal Oct 05 '24 edited Oct 06 '24
My sister is going to become a tatzpitanit in a few months. My family is concerned about the potential risks, they're actively trying to get her out of it. I believe that the chances of something happening to her are minimal. Despite the dangers and boredom, I think it's a very respectable and honorable job, tatzpitaniot play a huge role for the safety of Israel
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u/HereFishyFishy4444 Israel-Italy Oct 05 '24
I mean it's the job that could have prevented October 7 and the war, so I'd agree it's a very respectable job.
That it failed wasn't on them.
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u/NexexUmbraRs Oct 05 '24
So I think that there is definitely a level of chauvinism against female soldiers, and as a soldier who gathered intelligence from Gaza until 2019 I'm in shock by some of the things I'm reading about the state of affairs.
But I don't think chauvinism was the sole cause of this. I think their wording was fueled by chauvinism, but it feels more to me like they complained, they pushed it up, it got pushed down, they got sick of hearing it and assumed it was pushed down because the higher ups knew more.
Now the question remains why did the higher ups think they knew more? I'm not talking at the level of a brigade, I'm talking all the way up. There was somewhere where an officer who was meant to tie the two together decided to push back down and say it's not relevant. Whoever this is, needs to be heavily investigated and removed from his position last year.
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u/bad_lite Israel Oct 05 '24
Seems like the lead-up to the Yom Kippur War all over again. Intelligence is gathered, intelligence says the vibes are off, intelligence is sent up the chain where it’s then brushed off because reasons.
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u/Spudtron98 Can’t read Hebrew Oct 06 '24
Intelligence failings lose wars. The only reason the German advance through the Ardennes in 1940 even worked was because the French command refused to believe their own recon reports, because who could be dumb enough to try and drive tanks through there? The bastards were in the world's most heavily armed traffic jam trying to pick their way through the rough terrain there and could have been ripped to pieces if the French forces responded properly.
The most ridiculous thing about it is that the Maginot Line was designed to force the Germans through the area. They literally ignored their own strategic planning!
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u/RBatYochai Oct 06 '24
I think it got turned into an all-female unit BECAUSE it was deemed unimportant. Then, later on, that disregard was compounded by the sexism of ignoring the women’s insights.
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u/NexexUmbraRs Oct 06 '24
Nobody thinks it's unimportant. It's one of the most respected positions in the army imo.
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u/call_me_fred Oct 05 '24
Highly recommend חיות כיס podcast about this. It's shocking just how important and difficult this role is and how little it's valued...
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0VgmNwdNWTwCxXXkpKzX5a?si=Yzc0Mz5uRJ-xE95q2mji4g
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u/FengYiLin Oct 05 '24
I often find myself contemplating that the negligence of the border was intentional to a degree I'm not comfortable considering.
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u/ijustlurkhere_ Old man yells at cloud computing Oct 05 '24
Our messianic settlement-obsessed government felt it prudent to pay more attention to judea and samaria, did they not redeploy troops there from the gaza border or was that a rumor?
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u/nobaconator Fashy Zionist Clicktivist Oct 05 '24
This comment is so low, but absolutely the truth. Not just troops, but everything. New tech first went to Judea and Samaria: more manpower, not just soldiers, but observers, administrators, everything.
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u/Responsible-Emu217 Oct 05 '24
Those superiors who were so dismissive of all the warnings they received are just as guilty as Hamas is for everything that happened on October 7th.
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u/ApocalypseNah Oct 05 '24
They definitely deserve some guilt but “just as guilty as Hamas” is egregious
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u/Responsible-Emu217 Oct 05 '24
Thousands of people have died, and dozens of people are still rotting in captivity because they chose to ignore the warning signs; they are absolutely just as guilty as Hamas.
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u/dany99001 Oct 06 '24
I’m about to say an unpopular opinion, but please hear me out before you jump to conclusions.
While tazpitaniot do an incredibly important job, which is very demanding and difficult. It’s not their job or responsibility to find out about enemy plans or strategies. They’re not supposed to speculate about what the enemy is planning, that is the job of the officers higher up.
In a military or any organization for that matter, there are clear roles and responsibilities for a reason. A tazpitanit just lacks the experience and training to speculate about enemy forces. Their service is not more than two years usually, which is a lot, but might not be enough to give a good assessment about something as complex as strategy which takes others decades to fully understand. She could give her input yes, but it’s probably not as comprehensive as a person who specializes in that field.
Now about oct. 7th, yes it turns out the tazpitaniot were right, with all the experience and expertise of the higher ups they messed up. Does that mean tazpitaniot now have more understanding of the situation than the officers above them? Probably not.
The tazpitaniot have probably made a lot of observations and warned about a lot of things that they were worried about over the years, have all of them came out to be true? I would guess not. And again I don’t blame them, it’s not their job, speculation needs experience which they lack compared to officers.
In short, although the tazpitaniot were completely right about October 7th as opposed to the higher ups. This does not mean we should now take their word as being more knowledgeable or more true than the people above them, maybe their input should be more important in understanding of the situation than it was before, but it can’t be taken as their word alone.
I don’t want this to sound disrespectful to tazpitaniot, my respect for their job is extremely high and I know how demanding and stressful it is. Especially now after the start of the war. They do an irreplaceable job which most people could not do. It’s a real shame that they were let down and put in danger when they were told they weren’t.
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u/PerfectPanda1221 Oct 06 '24
I heard them from the beginning and the arrogant shall be accountable 💙✡️🇮🇱🪴✝️🌤🇺🇦👊🏻🇨🇦🙏
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Oct 05 '24 edited Oct 05 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Israel-ModTeam Oct 05 '24
Rule 2: Post in a civilized manner. Personal attacks, racism, bigotry, trolling, conspiracy theories and incitement are not tolerated here.
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u/dave3948 Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24
In the Toyota Production System there is a principle called "genchi genbutsu" which means "go and see". To truly grasp a problem you need to observe it directly at the source: visit the assembly line, don't just read reports. Sounds like the higher-ups in the IDF weren't doing this. They were reading the reports of the tatzpitaniot at a distance without really understanding them.
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u/1GrouchyCat Oct 05 '24
“tatzpitaniyot”
Your sister is a lone soldier tatzpitaniyot.
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u/NotEvenWrong-- Oct 05 '24
תצפיתנית - יחיד - tatzpitanit
תצפיתניות - רבים (רבות בתכלס) - tatzpitaniyot
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