r/InternationalNews • u/TendieRetard • Jun 03 '24

Ukraine/Russia Zelenskyy accuses China of pressuring other countries not to attend upcoming Ukraine peace talks

https://apnews.com/article/ukraine-singapore-shangrila-russia-defense-94ebb72539182a0215c85895725cdd48
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u/AwesomeBrainPowers Jun 03 '24

Oh, fun: It’s “Imperialist Apologia O’Clock” again.

First: The Euromaidan was not a “coup”; that’s just pro-Kremlin disinformation spouted by war crime apologists to be consumed and regurgitated by shallow-thinkers who mistake contrarianism for insight and seem to believe that bellicose imperialism somehow doesn’t count if it’s flavored differently.

Second:

After a decade of using paramilitary separatists as a proxy force—and a popular protest movement that saw the ouster of pro-Kremlin politicians and the ascendancy of pro-Western parties instead—the Kremlin just up and invaded a sovereign nation that hadn’t attacked it or expressed any interest in doing so whatsoever.

If this was truly about the expansion of NATO (which, to be clear, is a defensive coalition intended to protect against exactly this kind of thing), then Putin lost this war the very instant Sweden and Finland joined up, doubling Russia’s border with NATO members.

But it isn’t about that, and any honest, thinking person knows it:

This is blatant, imperialistic conquest; it's incredibly uninformed (at best) or risibly dishonest (at worst) to suggest otherwise.

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u/Justhereforstuff123 United States Jun 03 '24

First: The Euromaidan was not a “coup”; that’s just pro-Kremlin disinformation

To prove me wrong, you cited a think tank funded by Oil giants, bankers, war profiteers, and other state department linked ghouls, lovely.

This was the case in the 2004–5 Orange Revolution, where foreign NGOs changed little about Ukraine’s corruption and authoritarianism, but achieved the crucial goal of nudging Ukraine’s foreign policy westward. As the liberal Center for American Progress put it that year:

Did Americans meddle in the internal affairs of Ukraine? Yes. The American agents of influence would prefer different language to describe their activities — democratic assistance, democracy promotion, civil society support, etc. — but their work, however labeled, seeks to influence political change in Ukraine.

This was the case in the 2004–5 Orange Revolution, where foreign NGOs changed little
about Ukraine’s corruption and authoritarianism, but achieved the
crucial goal of nudging Ukraine’s foreign policy westward. As the
liberal Center for American Progress put it that year:
Did Americans meddle in the internal affairs of Ukraine?
Yes. The American agents of influence would prefer different language to
describe their activities — democratic assistance, democracy promotion,
civil society support, etc. — but their work, however labeled, seeks to
influence political change in Ukraine

While it may be a long time before we know its full extent, Washington took an even more direct role once the turmoil started. Senators John McCain and Chris Murphy met with Svoboda’s fascist leader, standing shoulder to shoulder with him as they announced their support to the protesters, while US assistant secretary of state Victoria Nuland handed out sandwiches to them. To understand the provocative nature of such moves, you only need to remember the establishment outrage over the mere idea Moscow had used troll farms to voice support for Black Lives Matter protests.

So all in all, US backed Right wing actors who sniped police and innocent people, forced the elected president to abdicate under the threat of death isn't a coup? Well it's not like political dissidents have been silenced since then...right? Oh wait no, everyone who doesn't agree with thinning Ukraine's population must be a subversive russia agent! Yeah, that'll justify banning political opposition and remaining president even though his term already expired.

"But the Ukranian constitution allows it!" I'm pretty sure it doesn't allow lifetime appointment, which Z-man is on track to becoming, seeing as Blinken said there would be elections so long as Ukranian territory is occupied. That either means war is going to happen forever/ eastern ukraine is going to rejoin. I can assure you the latter isn't going to happen.

If this was truly about the expansion of NATO (which, to be clear, is a defensive coalition intended to protect against exactly this kind of thing)

I feel so defended with the genocide happening in Palestine, the overthrow of libya, the destruction of iraq, afghanistan, the bombing of Yugoslavia. Wholesome chungus defensive pact!

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u/AwesomeBrainPowers Jun 03 '24

In all of your ad hominem & vapid sloganeering, you ignored quite a significant bit of my comment.

Here, I’ll repeat it for you:

…then Putin lost this war the very instant Sweden and Finland joined up, doubling Russia’s border with NATO members.

But it isn’t about that, and any honest, thinking person knows it:

This is blatant, imperialistic conquest; it's incredibly uninformed (at best) or risibly dishonest (at worst) to suggest otherwise.

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u/Justhereforstuff123 United States Jun 03 '24

Russia isn't an imperialist country. War =/= imperialism. Occupation =/= imperialism. Imperialism has pretty specific characteristics, but I'll wait for the person who thinks Genocide in Gaza & destroying the middle east is somehow defensive for NATO to explain Imperialism instead 😁.

But it isn’t about that, and any honest, thinking person knows it:

I don't think any of it is relevant as it doesn't really change the facts of the ground. Putin himself only exists because NATO plunged the Soviet Union into illegal dissolution, and our guy Yeltsin picked Putin as a successor.

Ignore the NED office in Ukraine, ignore the snipers, ignore the president being forced out, ignore the squashing of dissidents, then yeah, Ukraine is a healthy democracy.

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u/AwesomeBrainPowers Jun 03 '24

I'll wait for the person who thinks Genocide in Gaza & destroying the middle east is somehow defensive

I don’t know who that is, because it certainly isn’t me.

Conquest is the explicit goal of the Kremlin’s voluntary war of aggression: There is no dodging that, and absolutely no amount of regurgitated talking points or vapid sloganeering will change that.

Best of luck with your many and obvious struggles.

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u/Justhereforstuff123 United States Jun 03 '24

I don’t know who that is, because it certainly isn’t me

Well it wasn't me who said NATO was defensive. That was you. Scroll up, please. I'm not really understanding how genocide is defensive. You're free to retract your claim of NATO being defensive, though.

That would of course mean having to accept that maybe NATO wasn't funding peace & democracy in Ukraine duing the 2014 coup.

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u/AwesomeBrainPowers Jun 03 '24

Well it wasn't me who said NATO was defensive

Israeli isn’t a NATO member, you absolute caricature.

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u/Justhereforstuff123 United States Jun 03 '24

Israeli isn’t a NATO member, you absolute caricature.

Please use your brain a hot second and tell me which countries are backing Israel?

But if course you're going to ignore NATO in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, and so on, right?

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u/AwesomeBrainPowers Jun 03 '24

This has to be an act.

I don’t know why you’d choose such a humiliating shtick for yourself, but I don’t really care.

So, again: Best of luck with your many and obvious struggles.

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u/Justhereforstuff123 United States Jun 03 '24

You clearly do if you've stuck out the convo for this long. Very classy way to ignore my questions 😂.