r/DebateCommunism Mar 28 '21

📢 Announcement If you have been banned from /r/communism , /r/communism101 or any other leftist subreddit please click this post.

473 Upvotes

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r/DebateCommunism 1d ago

Unmoderated Why is Gonzalo thought the next step of marxism according to MLM?

14 Upvotes

Hi everyone.

I've often felt in disagreement with Maoists in my country (France) but had trouble understanding why. I usually call myself Marxist-Leninist when people ask but I have read Mao's writings and do consider most of it as worth taking from, some things even being universal in my opinion (his work on contradictions, his analysis of geopolitics and the differences between countries).

I only recently realized, reading about the Communist Party of Peru (PCP), that most of the things I disagreed with Maoists about weren't things directly taken from Mao's experience but rather taken from what they consider to be the PCP's synthesis of Maoism (for example, Mao himself never said that the PPW is universal and supported the soviet revolution as the way to follow for imperialist countries, while current Maoists I've talked with consider the protracted people's war (PPW) as universal).

However, I admit I don't really understand the appeal of that synthesis. First because Gonzalo's movement was a failure, but also because I do not see some things that it synthesizes as truly universal, more as pratical applications of universal rules adapted to China's situation. Some on-going maoists PPW seem to not declare Gonzalo thought as universal from what I've seen (in India and the Philippines) from what I've read.

I also see contradicting things about the truth of the PCP even during its peak, some claiming it had massive support from peasantry and indigenous communities, other going as far as to claim it brutalized and oppressed indigenous communities, women and LGBT+ people.

I was wondering if I could get some light on the truth about the PCP's struggle in Peru, and by that I mean on the reality of the struggle, not their line/program. As Lenin would say, we don't judge a party from its motto, but from its acts. The issue is that so far I've only seen sources that were basically bourgeois sources. Have there been analysis on the PCP's PPW?


r/DebateCommunism 16h ago

Unmoderated Lenin’s atrocities

0 Upvotes

Lenin was not a nice guy besides all the people he starved he was just a straight up horrible person he was an ill tempered jerk, he caused a split in communism he alone divided Russian communism to "menshiviks" meaning minority and "bolsheviks" meaning majority despite the naming the menshiviks were often in the majority and the Bolshevik's in the minority but I digress. He was known for his stubbornness and a pain to argue with and that's just his personality, during his reign he caused many MANY peasant revolts due to his policy's on grain for troops, he unlike other communists believed in a one man one party state and "communism under one nation" basically fascism roleplaying as communism, he killed ethnic minorities and religious leaders, he killed deserters, and he killed political opponents Lenin was overall a fucking dick


r/DebateCommunism 2d ago

📖 Historical What is your attitude to the March anti-constitutional coup in the USSR?

5 Upvotes

March 5, 1953 from 20:00 to 20:40, under the pretext of Stalin's ill health was a joint meeting of the Plenum of the CPSU Central Committee, the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR and the Council of Ministers of the USSR, in the process of which, violating the Constitution were reshuffled in the Council of Ministers and the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet. Malenkov was appointed Chairman of the Council of Ministers, although Stalin's powers were not removed (he was alive until 21:50), thus for the first time in the USSR there were two Chairmen of the Council of Ministers. Malenkov "on the instructions of the Bureau of the Presidium of the CPSU Central Committee" appointed Beria L.P., Molotov V.M., Bulganin N.A., Kaganovich L.M. as his first deputies.

To clarify - the entire composition of the Council of Ministers, including the Chairman of the Council of Ministers has the right to form only the Supreme Soviet at its session, but in this case, violating the Constitution, with the permission of the party body was an illegal reshuffle under the pretext of the need to rally in the conditions of poor health of Stalin.

The same was true of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet - it was also elected by the Supreme Soviet only at its session, but this was not given any importance, approving Voroshilov as Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet and Pegov as Secretary.


r/DebateCommunism 1d ago

Unmoderated Broad, but how do communists respond to the systematic issues in the USSR, Cuba etc?

0 Upvotes

I'm leftist/market socialist just to clear this up. But I wonder how can people justify that communism will be an economic succes when we have an array of unsuccessful examples. How does marxism/communism aim to tackle the problem of inefficiency, human greed, and the lack of a market pushing growth?


r/DebateCommunism 2d ago

⭕️ Basic How would there be achievement in a communist society?

2 Upvotes

Businesses / companies are almost all sellers of a product, whether physical or digital nearly every business has a product that they sell to some facet of the consumer base. My question is, in a communist society, where workers and business owners receive/ get payed the same amount, what would incentivize somebody to start a business or create a product. Why would somebody want to go through the difficulty of thinking of, generating prototypes, manufacturing and marketing a product if they would receive the same amount of goods/ money if they hadn’t done that at all. Would any inventions or creations even exist if there isn’t any incentive to do so? For instance, why would a chef want to improve the quality of their food if it doesn’t matter whether they do so or not since they will receive the same amount of money/ goods. Wouldn’t communism hinder achievement and advancement because of this?


r/DebateCommunism 3d ago

🍵 Discussion How do I respond to someone saying their boss “deserves more money because they took all the risk”?

10 Upvotes

Recently I was having an argument with someone, and we were talking about how the costs of the company they work for went down. I asked if with that the services they provide became cheaper, or if their salaries went up. They said neither of those two options happened.

So when I suggested that what likely happened was that their boss started to earn more money, they responded with “yea but he deserves that, he took all the risk when starting the company”.

So how do I respond to this as a socialist?


r/DebateCommunism 3d ago

📖 Historical Thoughts on reports that the Argentinian poverty levels are currently decreasing?

5 Upvotes

r/DebateCommunism 3d ago

Unmoderated How would society function in communism?

0 Upvotes

Why would anyone want to be a construction worker, garbage picker or a miner, these jobs are necessary for society to function but there wouldn't be anyone to do them because of the very nature of the work.

Also why would anyone want to be a flight attendant, hotel receptionist or a waiter, while these may not be that necessary it would become rather inconvenient for society to function if people just quit these jobs.

Also the topic of extremely stressful but well paying jobs like a surgeon or a quant analyst, these might pay well in the current system and that's what incentivises people to take these up most people don't have a 'passion' for this stuff and so would simply quit for easier jobs that require less skill. The results of this would be rather catastrophic.

How does communism seek to solve these issues.


r/DebateCommunism 5d ago

🍵 Discussion Why are many of the eastern block countries economically inferior compared to the west?

16 Upvotes

Throughout the 20th and the early 21st centuries, we've seen many of the countries throughout the former eastern block lag behind economically compared to the west. We're able to see soviet communists influence on their economy in graphs like these: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1073152/gdp-per-capita-east-bloc-west-comparison-1950-2000/ And it's continuing influence in the figure of gdp per capita is able to be seen in sources like these https://www.thediplomaticaffairs.com/2023/08/25/economic-divergences-western-versus-eastern-european-countries/ So, given the fact that the most significant difference between the two regions is their former economic systems, why would this be the case?


r/DebateCommunism 6d ago

⭕️ Basic Would everyone get the same amount of money in a communist society?

7 Upvotes

Would there even be any money?

I read in Capital, that the value of an object would be measured by the socially average amount of labor time that produced it. So, that the value of woven fabric would not be according to the time of laziest or fastest weaver, but by the average weaver.

What about different occupations?

Would a doctor make the same amount of money as a barista?

Then, how would society encourage people to study and make themselves doctors?

One could be self righteous, and claim that they themselves would still be encouraged to study for various professions-- that the job is itself greater satisfaction. But this doesn't seem to gel with human nature. It seems over idealistic and not practical, a charge often lodged by communists against anarchists. I believe a few people would still become doctors, but not that vast majority of people. There would be a shortage of doctors.

So, according to Marx, would everyone really be given the same amount of money?


r/DebateCommunism 6d ago

Unmoderated What does "contributing to local commune" mean?

2 Upvotes

I always hear that people in communism must contribute to their community or they will be rejected from it. But what if many people in those communes want to be artists, or musicians, or something that won't help the commune that much or will be too oversaturated? Will they be forced to do something they don't like?


r/DebateCommunism 7d ago

Unmoderated Has anyone ever referred to something as lower phase socialism? Or is socialism just exactly one stage.

2 Upvotes

Has any socialist ever used the term lower phase socialism for when accumulated labor and capital still exists but is taken out of private hands? And higher phase socialism would be closer to labor voucher or immediate reinvestment? Or would socialism be different to lower phase communism for when the labor voucher system would then start to exist? Or would it just be the dictatorship of the proletariat and not yet socialism or is that only in the NEP stage. Definitions might not matter as much as society if the project avoids revisionism is reaching the same proccess of abolishing wage labor probably.


r/DebateCommunism 8d ago

Communist Party USA has 15,000+ members. r/communism has 252,000+ members. Why isn’t CPUSA larger?

1 Upvotes

I know that sub has people from different countries but please hear me out. Pretty much the only real Communist party in the US has 15,000 members. That is super small in comparison to all the other self described communists in other online platforms and in person. Is there a reason why it isn’t larger? Do other communists not want to join?


r/DebateCommunism 10d ago

📖 Historical Wage being paid value of work in USSR

3 Upvotes

In the Ussr since it was under a plan and wages weren’t a method of trying to minimize for profit but create the best conditions for their working class society as possible, would this count as being paid for the value of your labor? Since Marx talks about necessary deductions at the end of the day the Ussr is a working class planned economy, so does it count as being for the value for their labor since it’s a society to benefit and maximize conditions for the working class and not to at as little as the cost of labor power in the market is? Does it change the relations of society to that extent? Since the relations of society begins to actually deem the wages paid out the value of their labor because it’s a worker oriented for the interests of workers society instead of profit? Or is this just idealism?


r/DebateCommunism 13d ago

📖 Historical The reason Nazis called themselves socialist

20 Upvotes

Was this because if you put yourself in the time period more, socialism was associated with class struggle? And the Nazis basically used the term socialist associated with class struggle to replace it with the ideas of like psuedo science “dialectical” racial and nationalist theories of I guess a false struggle? And are they accidentally associated with communists not only because the shifts away from liberalism would just naturally see political centralization as useful but because of how rooted their ideology was in the divergence and mislead for the working class away from socialism while trying to appeal to their class ills on a false basis of struggle?


r/DebateCommunism 14d ago

Unmoderated Is it possible to become a communist purely for economic reasons?

9 Upvotes

I mean, if communistic ideology is intrinsically materialistic, should I study it if I am interested just it the end result? There is always talk about solidarity with the working class and all that, but I don’t feel that way. I feel solidarity with my immediate family and friends, that’s about sums it up. I have a degree in computer science and have a steady job that pays well — when it comes to stereotypical blue collar proletariat, I really don’t know much about these people, their struggles, I don’t have any friends that work in hard manual labor, but apparently we both are proletariat.

What really interests me, is how oligarchs and bourgeoisie fuck me over personally, paying me much less than the value I generate for the company. Could this be the main motivation for me as a communist, could I even call myself that? I don’t care about philosophical, ideological or even ethical angles, US liberal left culture wars not interest me in the slightest. And I’m not saying this to sound edgy or something, it’s just that the immediate economic shortcomings of post-Covid world are too substantial, from the price of food to the price of PC parts. And if under communism working class will rule, won’t be exploited and most certainly will live better than of today — should I even care what Marx and Lenin wrote about? I don’t think that soviet citizens at large cared much about the stuff, or worked valiantly for global justice and world revolution too.


r/DebateCommunism 13d ago

🍵 Discussion How much decentralization should we have in an economic system?

1 Upvotes

I used to consider myself a libertarian socialist and was totally in favor of as much decentralization as possible. But now I'm starting to realize that a healthy degree of centralization is necessary or even inevitable if we are to fight capitalism properly.

Regulations that try to fight off the exploitative aspects of lassies-faire capitalism work the best when they are done on a larger, trans-national scale, in a centralized manner, since in this way, the negotiation power of the working class is higher. Take a law such as the minimum wage, for example. Imagine the disaster that would ensue if the minimum wage was different in each city, instead of being implemented at a national level. The companies that hire in cities where wages are higher would just move to cities where wages are lower in order to lower the cost of labor and increase their profits. And in fact, this is already happening: labor is very often outsourced in regions of the world where salaries are lowest.

Now imagine the reverse example: if instead of each country in Europe having a different minimum wage, we would have a single minimum wage at the level of the EU. Companies would no longer outsource their labor to countries where the minimum wage is lower, since wages would be more similar across the EU. This would mitigate the “race to the bottom” dynamic where poorer nations are forced to suppress wages to attract foreign investment.

The benefits of centralization extend beyond wages. Consider labor protections such as paid sick leave, workplace safety standards, and maximum work hours. Without centralized regulations, countries or regions are pitted against one another, competing to attract businesses by lowering labor standards. A centralized system could ensure these protections are universally applied, reducing exploitation and improving the quality of life for workers globally.

This is one of the ways in which the exploitation of capitalism is intertwined with the process of globalization - capitalism forces poorer, developing regions in a double-bind: choose either low wages or unemployment. That's why one of the arguments of right-wingers is that we should lower our wages in our country in order to attrat investors, and that if we were to increase the minimum wage too much, foreign companies would stop investing in our country. Here, the right-wingers are often right (no pun intended): they are pointing out a flaw of social democracy. But the solution here is not to go further right, but further left: classical liberals are right that trying to reform capitalism leads to disadvantages, which is why capitalism needs to be replaced with another system altogether.

One of the advantages of centralization through international cooperation is thus a higher negotiating power of the working class, achievied through international solidarity. If each country negotiates its wages individually (in other words, in a decentralized manner), the countries with higher wages will suffer from unemployment (as companies would outsource their labor where labor is cheaper), and the countries with low wages will suffer from poverty. This doesn't apply only to wages, but to working conditions in general: paid sick leave, benefits, 40 hour work week and so on. Supply chains are global now: the phone you buy was fabricated by starving children in Africa who work 60 hours per week in gruesome conditions. If capitalism is a global phenomenon, don't we need to fight fire with fire and cooperate globally?

Take another example of the double-binds of global capitalism: taxing the rich. Critics of progressive tax policies often argue that taxing the rich too heavily will lead to capital flight, as wealthy individuals relocate to tax havens with lower rates. This argument is not without merit. In a decentralized world where each country sets its own tax policies, billionaires can easily shop around for the most favorable conditions. The result? Countries either become tax havens with minimal public revenue or impose high taxes and watch the wealthy leave. Both scenarios leave governments struggling to generate sufficient funds to support public services.

How can we escape the double-bind? How do we avoid choosing between two bad outcomes? Here, centralization can help: we could envision a trans-national taxing system for example, or a mechanism in which countries get penalized by other countries if they become tax heavens. In this way, the rich will have nowhere to run since the countries cooperated together to negotiate collectively with them, in a way.

This is how a labor union works too, in principle. If each worker were to negotiate their wages individually, they would not gain much, since the employer can just choose to fire them if they threaten to leave and replace them with someone else. But what if all their employees go on a strike all at the same time? The employer will not be able to fire all of them at once. By negotiating collectively, labor unions are by their nature a centralized power structure, no matter how democratic it is.

This is not to say that centralization does not have its disadvantages as well. It can more easily lead to corruption, and it's much more unstable since if the 'center' falls, it can lead to a domino effect where the entire structure collapses. Centralization leads to a scenario where there can be too much power and responsibility in the hands of too few people - something which already happens in capitalism regularly. By centralizing too much, we risk replacing one top-down hierarchical power structure with another, and nothing would change.


r/DebateCommunism 14d ago

🍵 Discussion You get what you need under communism, BUT do you get what you want?

2 Upvotes

I understand that in this society you are supposed to get everything you need to survive. But what about the luxuries? Do you also get those things? And how? Do you get them for free?


r/DebateCommunism 15d ago

🚨Hypothetical🚨 How to avoid all powerful governments?

0 Upvotes

How to avoid all powerful governments?

Question for communists. When we look at the devolution of Russia and China who started their revolution with the belief of a fair and equal society for the people. We can in todays modern time see that when the government has all the power they can censor, arrest and execute any individual who oppose them. Democracy becomes forbidden and dictators eventually rise.

Let's say that a country has yet another revolution. How could we avoid such a devolution, uphold democracy, multiple-parties and avoid giving the government all the power? Thus ensuring the people have the power?


r/DebateCommunism 15d ago

🍵 Discussion Any thoughts on "egoism"?

2 Upvotes

For those who are familiar with the works of Johan Kaspar Schmidt (aka Max Stirner), I'd like to learn the differences between his philosophy and Marx's. Or maybe, I guess I'd like to hear a critique of his work from a Marxist perspective. I guess sometimes it's easier to find the right answer than the right question, so please bear with me here.

I may or may not answer to your comments, but I will likely read most if not all comments posted, but I'd like to open the floor for all of you guys. Honestly, I'm not very well versed on either, but I know both were "post Hegel" philosophers and both somewhat of the same "lineage" if that makes any sense at all. The best I can gather is both used a dialectical approach, Marx was more associated with the materialist perspective and I believe "Stirner" may have leaned a little more towards the idealistic?

Thank you guys much and have a great day!


r/DebateCommunism 15d ago

😏 Gotcha! Why do many Marxists condemn Christopher Columbus as though he has done something morally wrong?

0 Upvotes

I’m not looking for answers from utopian socialists. I’m looking for answers from more or less orthodox Marxists who would agree with the assertion that “all morality is ideology”, and wouldn’t attempt to justify the proletarian revolution besides saying it’s a historically necessary outcome and all you can do is limit how painful the transition will be.

Given the vast differences in technological capabilities and the ideologies of the European ruling class, the brutal colonialism of Columbus was simply the natural outcome given the initial conditions. They had resources and slave labor, and it’s a simple historically necessary consequence given the mercantile economic system of European powers.

Yet, most Marxists make wild statements about Christopher Columbus and condemn him as though he has done something wrong. But this is surely not correct. All morality is ideology and Christopher Columbus is simply an agent of historically necessary change. Colonialism greatly accelerated the transition from Mercantilism to capitalism and Columbus should be praised for his efforts in promoting it. It was a historically necessary transition, and thanks to Columbus’ brutal yet efficient methods it happened sooner than it would have without him. Thanks to his brave efforts in spreading disease, misery, and slavery, history marched on.

I’m not asking about your personal feelings about Christopher Columbus. Marxism is a scientific system that in part studies historically necessary outcomes. There is nothing in Marx’s writings which grants you the normative grounding to morally condemn anything as unjust, and Marx explicitly distances himself from such moralistic utopian socialist ideologies. So why then would many Marxists still try to cash and out and still try to claim a “””scientific””” condemnation of Columbus is possible? Colonialism was a historically necessary development and the native peoples suffered nothing unjust, there is nothing more to say on the matter. Claiming that history should not have been so isn’t scientific and is very much a utopian ideal that is to be rejected.


r/DebateCommunism 15d ago

⭕️ Basic Marx’s fundamental mistake of ignoring risk

0 Upvotes

In my view, the fundamental flaw in Marx's critique of capitalism is that he ignores the central role of risk.

His description of "Capitalist exploitation" just assumes that businesses always make a profit. But this is simply not true.

A Capitalist loans his capital to the business so that it can provide workers with tools, wages that are paid before they finish their products, etc -- why does Marx think anyone would do this if there wasn't the potential of a profit but only the risk of a loss?

More problematically, why does he think every worker should be paid on average labor time not their actual performance?

Imagine this scenario. We have 10 widget factories. 9 of them have 1 employ who produces 1 widget a day, the 10th has a special widget 2.0 machine that allows its one employee to produce 11 widgets a day. So the average labor time (9 + 11) / 10 = 2 widgets a day. If nine out of 10 factories pay their employee the full value of two widgets but only have one to sell, they are all losing money. But this is what Marx is demanding.

The whole point of Capitalism is to manage the risks involved in any venture: the risk that someone else is able to work significantly more efficiently than you, the risk that someone will invent a new product that makes the one you are making obsolete, the risk that you miscalculated future demand for your product, etc

And his proposed solution ignores these same problems. In a system where the workers control the means of production, how would everyone always predict with 100% accuracy exactly how much of everything needs to be produced before they even start? They wouldn't, so the same risks would exist, but now all of society is responsible for the consequences of all mistakes. So what incentive is there not take stupid risks? Without price indicators, how would anyone gauge how many of any product is actually needed?


r/DebateCommunism 17d ago

🚨Hypothetical🚨 How does Cuba's embargo end?

18 Upvotes

I am of the loathed Cuban diaspora. To add context though my family were not "golden exiles," they left in the 90s during the special economic period; before then they didn't consider moving.

My Great Grandmother who is still alive remembers both Batista and Castro, she supported the revolution and her husband was a Communist Party member. She never got to go to school but her daughter, my Grandmother, became a doctor under Fidel's government.

I am not a Communist, as I don't believe in the end goal, but I do believe in Socialism. I do not have a Black/White view of Fidel Castro either. If I could choose my ideal situation Cuba would be able to trade with the rest of the world while having a Socialist model. I wish Cuba could develop and prosper like China and Vietnam.

However this is obviously not possible with the embargo; so Cubans are left in the situation where they are hampered. Where they either leave like 10% of the population has in the last 2 years, or keep facing economic warfare in their home.

If the embargo keeps going the situation won't get any better. Vassalization by the US at this point honestly seems preferable, as it would end the embargo and stop shortages. The only alternative is for Cubans to keep enduring the struggle and keep losing its population, but for what end goal? For the USA to change its foreign policy? However many decades it could take.

In short I am not blaming Cuba's problems directly on the government, but I also don't see how the main issues plaguing Cuba will ever get resolved with that government in office because of indirect reasons. I feel like many would prefer Cubans still endure these struggles, against their own material interests, in return for ideological preservation


r/DebateCommunism 17d ago

🍵 Discussion How would the state just wither away?

4 Upvotes

r/DebateCommunism 18d ago

🍵 Discussion Are communist opposed to hierarchies like anarchist are?

24 Upvotes