Why oppose patriotic socialism in the US?

[u/Square-Bee-844]

Patriotic socialism is about wanting better for your country, loving your people and to help your people by freeing them from corporatists that run the country. It is also about abolishing the military industrial complex. People often associate it with Jackson Hinkle, along with his supporters who support bigotry towards lgbt and sex workers, but it doesn’t have to be associated with him. I can be patriotic and a socialist, Jackson Hinkle doesn’t speak for me. I hear a lot of talk about what patriotism means for the US, what it is, what it isn’t, etc. Some people’s patriotism doesn’t support imperialism, isn’t it unfair to force them to associate with those that do as if the malignant “patriots” speak for them?  Really, I see patriotic socialism as a pro people anti western imperialist movement unlike regular US patriotism. Why oppose it?

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[u/PeaceHater]

Patriotism towards settler states is necessarily predicated on exploitation or even elimination of the indigenous peoples of the land the settler colony is built on. For example we would not tolerate "Patriotic" Socialism in Israel for the same reason.

PatSoc is a fundamental failing of the National Question

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/PeaceHater]

What if a group of patriotic socialist Israelis sprung up, and their movement legitimately opposed genocide? So much so that Zionists consider them to be a “threat” to be shut down? Such movements could possibly exist. But it appears that the majority of people in Israel support the genocide (I’ve seen documentaries on it), while in the US, there’s more of a push among the people to give indigenous communities more rights.
Patriotism in settler states could definitely support indigenous sovereignty, the US doesn’t have to be defined by what it’s done in the past, but what it can do in the future.

[u/PeaceHater → u/Square-Bee-844]

How would such a movement orient itself towards the question of the Palestinian Nation though? It seems to me this is an attempt to make Socialism appear by holding enough appealing ideas

[u/AtmosphericReverbMan → u/PeaceHater]

Not necessarily. You're conflating patriotism with nationalism.

Patriotism is akin to what we saw in the UK. Where socialists were unabashedly British but also were at the forefront of pushing for the dismantling of the British empire. You see it with Scottish socialists now. At once proud of their Celtic roots at the same time waving Palestinian flags to recognise the international struggle.

So similarly, a patriotic Israeli socialist could not exclude the Palestinians as they're on the same land and not could an American so that for native Americans.

But nationalists have done both as they define nation in exclusionary terms.

[u/PeaceHater → u/AtmosphericReverbMan]

This doesn't recognize the materialist formulation of Nations, particularly as put forward by Stalin. This kind of idealism is fundamentally anti Marxist

[u/Mandala1069]

Let's call it something catchy like "National Socialism" maybe come up with a shorter, even catchier nickname..../s

[u/Irrespond]

Because thinking you can have an American patriotism without the stench of imperialism is the height of idealism. Moreover, why would you want to be patriotic for a capitalist country anyway? Stop making this a thing. If you want to be for the people, fine. Just don't do it while waving the flag of an imperialist country. This shouldn't be hard.

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/Irrespond]

Because maybe people just love the food, music, people and scenery here? A lot of community, family and friendships were built here. You also need to be able to convince older people in your community about the positives of socialism and that usually cannot happen without a patriotic message. And the US doesn’t have to be a capitalist country anymore, if we want it to be socialist we can make it socialist.

[u/Irrespond → u/Square-Bee-844]

None of that requires waving the flag of an imperialist state.

Also, the notion that we can will socialism into existence if we so choose is pure idealism and not rooted in material analysis. Here's what Marx had to say about it:

"Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence."

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/Irrespond]

Im not talking about “willing” anything. Look at how Luigi was able to stoke fear into the minds of healthcare CEOs all around the country. I mean, I’m not advocating for doing what he did, but people have more power than they realize. Spreading of bias free news too, was all possible with TikTok. Now they threatened to ban it on US soil out of fear. People do not hesitate to mobilize when push comes to shove.
Also, yes, you can still abolish the state of affairs and love the people in your country.

[u/Irrespond → u/Square-Bee-844]

Loving the people in your own country is all well and good and I see you're trying really hard to make patriotism not about imperialism, but as I said you can't have it without the stench of that.

[u/onwardtowaffles]

Patriotism is nearly always equivalent to nationalism, and we've seen what happens when nationalism goes beyond self-determination.

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/onwardtowaffles]

Patriotism isn’t nationalism.

[u/onwardtowaffles → u/Square-Bee-844]

It nearly always is, and even when it isn't, it's antithetical to a stateless society.

[u/onwardtowaffles → u/onwardtowaffles]

Now that doesn't mean a socialist couldn't say (for example) "I love my country enough to fix what's wrong with it," but if patriotic ideals clash with solidarity, the latter has to come first.

[u/ComradeKenten]

The problem is the US is a Settler state. The base for its existence is the genocide, enslavement, and deportation of Native people's. So to be patriotic to it naturally means rejecting the rights of the Native people's, and other oppressed peoples to self-determination.

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/ComradeKenten]

Most places on earth have some kind of violent history, but people can still fight to improve it and support indigenous peoples sovereignty. The elite class may not want that, but the people do.

[u/ComradeKenten → u/Square-Bee-844]

Yes, but I ordered to do that you must confront the history of it. When you do that you learn that the very reason the US exists is that Genocide. It is the foundation of the US. That means all the founding fathers, every us president, the vaste majority of us government officials, are implicit in that. It is an active process too oppress these people. All the people who take part in it are complicit in it.

That means as a prerequisite to give indigenous people sovereignty and support oppressed Nations right to self-determination you must accept that the US state as we have known it, including any love of it or it's history, must be absoluted. It must be done away with just as the Russian did away with the Russian empire and the Chinese did away this the Qing, we must do away with the United States.

If by patriotism you mean caring about your fellow workers within the United States, then your perspective of patriotism is in contradiction with the standard US patriotism which is entirely based in capitalism and settler colonialism. You must fight as apart of establishing a New Union, the creations of a new patriotism, a socialist patriotism that accepts the multinational nature of this country and denounces all the evils of the old Union. That casts the founders into hell where there succession hitler sit.

[u/Living-Language2202]

Patriotism is antithetical to communism. Nationalism is only conducive to Marxism when it's done by oppressed groups or nations. In the same way that the dictatorship of the proletariat is the suppression of the bourgeoisie and ruling classes. The dictatorship of oppressive nations by the oppressed nations, groups, and the 3rd world is in line with MLM thought. Communism will only be possible with the complete death of the American state.

[u/SimilarPlantain2204]

Socialism abolishes nations, therefore a socialist cannot be a patriot

[u/horus666]

From a Marxist point of view: In order to reject private property, you must oppose the continuation of nation states, as they are the primary enforcers of private property insofar as to protect the ruling class's interests of the various nations.

"The nationalities of the peoples who join together according to the principle of community will be just as much compelled by this union to merge with one another and thereby supersede themselves as the various differences between estates and classes disappear through the superseding of their basis -- private property."

Friedrich Engels, 1847

[u/Tokarev309]

I'll recommend some reading which will help educate those interested in an alleged Socialist alliance built upon an adherence of Nationalism as it may better explain the split between those who focus on class struggle and those who focus on national struggle -

"Behemoth" by F. Neumann is a fantastic primary source account of the rise of National Socialists in 20th century Germany and how they went from a fringe group to political dominance in part by utilizing Nationalism and patriotism in their rhetoric to diffuse class struggle.

"Anatomy of Fascism" by R. Paxton details the differences between, among other movements, National Socialsm and Communism and highlights the patriotic backbone of Fascist movements to preserve what is allegedly being taken away by "the Left" who focus more on class politics.

"The Economics of WW2" by M. Harrison explores the six dominant economic models operating during WW2. Of particular interest is the Nationalist project of Germany and Italy who catered to Capitalists, so long as they were Patriots among other caveats, while the Soviets had chosen to focus on class struggle and oppressed the private property owning class.

"The Doctrine of Fascism" by Mussolini explains his newfound ideology and how important Nationalism is and that to be a patriot is one's duty to the state while focusing on what he calls a "National Spirit" and disregarding class struggle.

"A People's History of the U.S." by H. Zinn explores the often underrepresented side of American history through a Leftist lens, which may help explain why those who do not even identify as Socialist themselves may have hostile feelings towards the concept of patriotism in the U.S.

Those who identify as Patriotic Socialists in the U.S. would benefit greatly from studying the history of Fascism and National Socialism as they may be surprised as to the shared commonality between them and why Marxists oppose them.

[u/Square-Bee-844 → u/Tokarev309]

Thanks, I’ll give those a look.

[u/T34Chihuahua]

In the united states the battle over the word "patriotism" meaning anything other than what Michael Parenti referred to as Super Patriotism was lost on 9/11. We see increasing national disunity there is no sense of patriotism that unites the working masses on the contrary "patriotism" as a unifying strategy isolates those on the receiving end of the far rights policies from working class unity.

[u/JDH-04]

Because that opposes the ideology of socialism and communism itself. Nationalism is essentially just another reaction to the hierarchical structure modern society subjects and categorizes us into, not to dissimilar to that of early tribal seperation that creates a disconnect between members of the international proliteriat. Nationalism enables these tribal divisions by creating a seperated state with borders, languages, and cultural practices which creates extremist patriotic pride in ones tribe and a lack of empathy to those whom are "outsiders".

The grander egalitarian goals of socialism and communism itself is to slowly create class consciousness at the societal level and finally achieve a global level societal awareness to where society itself rebels against the capitalist bourgeois class that exploits them and perpetrates needless wars, death, and poverty due to their own profit motive. Once rebellion fully occurs the means of production would be shifted over from privatized ownership which seeks to commodify both neccessities and luxury goods alike for profit to the public which would then decide based on the will of the commune (the overall public themselves) what will be benefical to produce and how much resources should be allocated to produce it along with whom shall lead in its production from within the proliteriat.

Society after the conversion from socialism to communism no longer needs borders, colonialism, wars, due to poverty being eradicated via the privatization/commidifcation of neccesities like healthcare, housing, food, transportation, etc.., would all becoming universally owned and maintained by the public for the public's usage. Not to be confused with it erasing private property, just erasing the profit motive in which no one could sell their property after it has ended being useful for it's current owner in which the ownership would be immediately in the hands of the commune.

[u/SvitlanaLeo]

Attacking the shortcomings and vices of one's own nation is not a crime, but a merit, it is true patriotism.

(c) Vissarion Belinsky

From the point of view of Belinsky (a socialist who had a great influence on Chernyshevsky and Lenin), a patriot and a socialist are compatible, but patriotism must be combined with an attack on the vices of one's nation, otherwise there is no true love for the nation.

[u/AbsolutelyHuman99]

Patriotic = National. So yeah people should not support National Socialism in the US or anywhere in the world.

[u/AtmosphericReverbMan]

You can be patriotic and socialist. It's just your socialism should not end at your borders. That's all.