My sister lived in Japan for like a decade, and she sometimes complained to me that she'd try to talk to people in Japanese (she is quite fluent in it) but they'd respond in English because she's very clearly not ethnically Japanese. Sometimes she would keep replying in Japanese but a lot of people never switched to it, so it would get weird and she'd eventually switch back to English.
So, you know, stuff like that might also play a role. Japan is a kind of weird example for this because it's a very insular culture that can often be pretty xenophobic.
edit to add: Also, I'm pretty sure JET (the main way that Americans get to live and work in Japan) actively discourages fluent Japanese speakers from applying, or at least used to. My sister tried to apply with them right after graduation (after spending a year in Japan as a student) and was told that her fluency in Japanese was actually a problem, because it's an immersion program and they don't want teachers falling back on communication in Japanese. Or that was my understanding, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. This was like 25 years ago, my memory is not that great and also things may have changed a lot.
Honestly, it doesn't surprise me too much. If you aren't japanese, you will never really be accepted even if you speak the language well. I remember a while ago I was bored scrolling through Facebook reels, and this guy was interviewing people in Japan. I remember two he interviewed. A white guy and a girl that was half japanese and half black if I remember correctly. Both were born and raised in Japan and spoke the language fluently. I remember both saying they were always treated and felt like outsiders. They never fit in anywhere.
I just watched a short documentary about a young black girl who was raised in Japan. If you closed your eyes and listen to her talk, you would've never guessed she wasn't ethnic Japanese. She says the same thing though, being treated like an outsider even though she was born and raised there.
When I was stationed there for 4 years, they were in fact, extremely xenophobic.
If you aren't japanese, you will never really be accepted
This is something I'll always go to bat for Japan on. It's not actually that hard to be accepted here if you just participate in social systems, e.g. join cleaning day with your HOA, or do your turn at the monthly garbage pick-up day.
The struggle to speak the native language is a thing in a lot of countries. When I moved to Sweden, it was so hard to get people to actually talk to me in Swedish because if I said something slightly wrong to identify that I wasn't native, they switched to English immediately. I understand it's mostly being courteous, but dammit is it annoying.
Yeah, I don't mean to give a negative impression of Japan here. My sister loved living there, and I've visited and had a great time. And she's actually a Japanese-English translator to this day.
It was just initially, she was frustrated because she was trying to improve her already good fluency. And then later, she got frustrated because it made her always feel like an outsider.
Not just being courteous, but some will switch to English because they suddenly have the opportunity to speak English to a native English speaker, and so can practice. One of the problems I had learning a foreign language was that, outside of class, I never had an opportunity to speak with anyone in that language, so I just started un-learning it the instant I was out of class.
This is exactly why I refuse to speak English to French people who are fluent in English (unless it's a work related necessity as a result of technical terms). Once you go there, you'll never get back; they'll speak English to me forever more. I didn't bust my ass to learn French in France, endure all of the criticism surrounding that for years and then...not speak it. If they'd like to practice English, I'm not the one for that. I usually let that be known at the onset.
JET isnt an immersion program...it's an exchange program.
As far as her Japanese fluency being a PROBLEM? I'm kinds dubious of that...they don't actively seek it and the certainly don't mandate it...but the programme itself doesn't hold it against you...many people think fluency is going to give them a leg up and it often doesn't, maybe that's why she felt that way? I dunno...I was in about 20 years ago...so our conditions were likely similar...
it's an immersion program and they don't want teachers falling back on communication in Japanese
Kinda yea, but not really. English classes in Japan aren't immersion classes. JET and all ALT and eikaiwa is mostly just about foreigners being used as training dummies.
English class here isn't about teaching fluency, it's mostly about reiterating the children's Japaneseness in contrast to the foreign teacher, and teaching children that they must control and manage foreigners, and teach them basic behavior, and how to do that.
It's one reason you have so many people rushing to help tourists - it has nothing to do with hospitality, it's people excited to finally have a chance to teach a foreigner something - it's the same thing that the old ladies dumping trash bags on immigrants' doorsteps are doing - they think it's their job to "teach" the foreigners.
ALTs and eikaiwa teachers aren't banned from speaking Japanese for immersion, it's because their real job is to play clueless foreigner - the entire purpose of the class falls apart if the children realize you're just a normal member of society with a family and home here.
Tbh, it's moreso Japanese wanting to practice their English than anything bigoted really. They're very socially awkward, and they often do that. When I was in Japan I would respond in Japanese and they would do the same thing, but some returnees (born in Japan, moved overseas, and then moved back to Japan) assured me they deal with the same thing even though they're ethnically Japanese. Once they found out they were returnees, random people would respond in English to them as well even though fluency was apparent. Granted there are still bigoted reasons but I found it's mostly just practice opportunities for them, at least in Nagano, Tokyo and Osaka.
it's moreso Japanese wanting to practice their English than anything bigoted
Kinda yes, kinda no.
Two things: first, assuming any racial minority you meet 1. can't speak Japanese and 2. therefore can speak English is, in fact, a kind of bigotry.
In the US, we consider it rude to say "ni hao" to every east Asian we meet, and Japanese people agree that it's rude to make assumptions like that. We all agree that it's inappropriate and rude, so it's strange to hold Japan to a lower standard.
But also, the Japanese education system basically teaches children that they only need English to teach foreigners how to behave, so "just wanting to practice English" isn't really what's happening. Like, why would you assume I'm here to give free English lessons? Why can't you just talk to me normally? If I'm a customer, how about addressing me properly?
Like, fine, let's debate if it's bigotry or not, but I can think of very, very few situations where treating a stranger as a"practice opportunity" isn't super fucking rude.
In the U.S we speak in Spanish to most Latinos who don't speak English despite there being Portuguese, and regional dialects, so lets get passed that. Happens in the service industry, medical industry, etc., so i don't agree with you on your first point. Same with how we forget Canadians often speak French, or confusing Europeans with each other (i.e., Germans and Swedes).
Also, the majority of tourists in Japan are either from English-speaking nations, or have a firm grasp on the English language. It'd be silly to assume foreigners speak a different language besides English, unless they're privy to the foreigner's background.
Second point - it happens in the states as well. In college there were people who would try and practice languages of different nations with those hailing from those same nationalities. Same in the military, whenever we had joint operations and training with foreign nations despite these scenarios being in English. No one took offense. Also, I don't get your second point entirely. Are you jilted by the Japanese speaking to you in English, or are you jilted that they aren't reciprocating conversation in Japanese? Another point is that they're taught English because English is the universal business language, and because they've had a history of it. It's why English was compulsory before and during WW2, despite there being very little tourism from western countries.
So is it bigotry? No, because they're not being prejudicial. If it's rude, then just ask them to speak in Japanese. If they continue to disregard that then, sure, it's rude.
In the U.S we speak in Spanish to most Latinos who don't speak English despite there being Portuguese, and regional dialects, so lets get passed that
Is it considered polite in the US to go up to brown-skinned people and speak Spanish at them "as a practice opportunity"? Since you're either being dishonest here or pretending to be stupid, I'll answer for you: no, it is not.
the majority of tourists in Japan
We're not talking about tourists, though. I'm not a tourist.
it happens in the states as well.
Again, is it considered polite in the US to approach people, assume a language based on their race, and use them for practice? Again, you're being dishonest and clearly not pretending to be stupid, so I'll answer for you: no, what the fuck are you talking about? You will get your ass kicked in the US if you do that.
in the military, whenever we had joint operations and training with foreign nations despite these scenarios being in English
Wait, what??? Nobody's talking about joint exercises.
No one took offense
Because they signed up for a seminar in English you dipshit. That's a completely different thing from what everyone else is talking about.
Also, I don't get your second point entirely. Are you jilted by the Japanese speaking to you in English, or are you jilted that they aren't reciprocating conversation in Japanese?
Huh? I live here. I want people to act normal around me? What the fuck are you not understanding here?
they're taught English because English is the universal business language
Again, you aren't understanding - I'm not talking about the reason why they study English, I'm talking about how it's taught. Y'know, because I used to teach English here.
So is it bigotry? No, because they're not being prejudicial
Except they are. Like, they will openly say it to your face.
If it's rude, then just ask them to
Or maybe people can just have manners and not say rude shit to strangers?
Except, I guess that is actually too difficult for you because you genuinely think it's ok to go up to random Latinos and speak Spanish at them just because of their race.
Holy shit, you actually are just too stupid and racist to understand why that's not okay.
The tourist thing made me laugh. I get the same thing when I talk about people singling me out when they hear my accent. "Well maybe they don't like/aren't used to/curious about tourists".
Living and working here close to ten years, paying taxes, owning property, taking children to school, etc = tourist? Yes they know I'm not a tourist; I'm everywhere a tourist wouldn't be 😂
The assumption is if you're different, you're only here for a short time and should be singled out. Hmmmp.
217
u/Loud_Insect_7119 2d ago edited 2d ago
My sister lived in Japan for like a decade, and she sometimes complained to me that she'd try to talk to people in Japanese (she is quite fluent in it) but they'd respond in English because she's very clearly not ethnically Japanese. Sometimes she would keep replying in Japanese but a lot of people never switched to it, so it would get weird and she'd eventually switch back to English.
So, you know, stuff like that might also play a role. Japan is a kind of weird example for this because it's a very insular culture that can often be pretty xenophobic.
edit to add: Also, I'm pretty sure JET (the main way that Americans get to live and work in Japan) actively discourages fluent Japanese speakers from applying, or at least used to. My sister tried to apply with them right after graduation (after spending a year in Japan as a student) and was told that her fluency in Japanese was actually a problem, because it's an immersion program and they don't want teachers falling back on communication in Japanese. Or that was my understanding, I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. This was like 25 years ago, my memory is not that great and also things may have changed a lot.