r/wec • u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 • May 21 '23
24hr Series Michelle Gatting on the 24 hours of Nürburgring
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u/0oodruidoo0 Ferrari AF Corse 499P #51 May 21 '23
I'll repeat what I said in discord. Mistakes happen, this is the green hell, what do you expect? You can't go and get rid of the lower classes because they're an integral part of the whole show. Most of the lower cars do a great job in indicating and getting out of the way.
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u/afito Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 May 21 '23
The GT3 overtake with wheels on the grass all the time then wonder when shit goes poorly. Managing your risk while greeding for that bit of extra time is just part of the game, do it poorly and pay the ultimate price. There's a reason like 50% of the SP9 have a crash, incident, or penalty each year, getting through without issue is almost putting you into the top 10 like that.
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u/Mani1610 May 21 '23
Yes but those who overtake like that don't want to be 10th, they want to win the race and they won't do that by not taking any risks.
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u/afito Mercedes CLK-GTR #11 May 21 '23
they won't do that by not taking any risks.
3? 4? years ago Audi was the slowest GT3 and the winning Audi was like 15th for the first 6h and then everyone else fucked it. The whole "to finish first you first have to finish" thing is beaten to death by now but this is the race where it applies by far the most.
Yeah generally I agree that you need to take some risks and pace is close upfront, but that's just the game around here that you're calculating it on a knife's edge and if you fuck it you fuck it big time.
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u/Mani1610 May 21 '23
Yeah 100% one mistake and it's over but even the Frikadelli Ferrari today was off the track several times already but it's necessary to be up there. Losing 2-3 seconds every overtake isn't an option but yeah driving like a madman for 24h rarely works.
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u/Hubblesphere May 21 '23
Winning car literally got a puncture, repaired damage and set a new distance record.
Some people are honestly driving like it’s iRacing.
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u/Mani1610 May 22 '23
Yes but the puncture thing barely cost them any time. The puncture happened late in the lap and they were able to repair the Ferrari during the minimum pit stop time period, so they didn't lose any time there either.
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u/Hubblesphere May 22 '23
Still lost time, drove the last sector on a puncture. With the competitiveness of modern endurance racing that can be all the difference in the end. The 33 car wasn’t even a minute ahead of 2nd after 24 hours. Any delay could’ve meant losing the win.
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u/Mani1610 May 21 '23
I mean yeah you see the same thing happening at Le Mans. Of course at a smaller scale since less cars and more professional line ups but just seeing those "random GTE Ferrari takes out LMP1" compilations is something else.
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u/brolix Bentley 8-Speed #8 May 21 '23
Yup. Her take is honestly hilarious. “I’ve always wanted to do this race but now that I’ve actually watched it I’m out.”
Uh ok. You apparently never watched this before so had no idea about it and just was interested in the legend. Clout chasing. And now you want to try to change the systems that created the legend?
Respectfully, get fucked.
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u/jashmenall Martini Racing Porsche 917k #22 May 21 '23
Am I right in saying this is the first time the Dacia has been hit by an SP9 car? As far as I can remember it has not been an issue in the past two 24 hours and in the NLS rounds
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u/ppizz Team WRT ORECA 07 #41 May 21 '23
Also because I think they had all the intentions in not getting totaled. They now can't even rebuild the car as engine is no longer being produced, therefore Dacia seems to be gone forever: See other post for more details.
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u/CookieMonsterFL 2013 Toyota Hybrid Racing TS030 #7 May 21 '23
it wasn't last year either. Sure the gap closing looks scary, but so are intervention vehicles as cars fly past them.
This incident is an albeit harsh reminder that you aren't ever safe around the track whether the faster or slower car and to keep using the noggin to get you out of problems.
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u/Trippy-Train-HD Ferrari May 21 '23
She is sad that her boyfriend is out of the race
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u/BigSlav667 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 May 21 '23
Which car was her partner in?
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u/Trippy-Train-HD Ferrari May 21 '23
The getspeed Mercedes number 3
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u/donutsnail May 21 '23
Oh that was definitely one where I can’t blame the pro. Engel was making a perfectly reasonable pass and the Cayman just meandered across the track into him
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u/SportscarPoster Rebellion May 21 '23
I think that was the second time we saw that particular Cayman do something daft too...
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u/sumerzy Ferrari May 21 '23
Lol well that explains her attitude who's her boyfriend?
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u/Trippy-Train-HD Ferrari May 21 '23
Jules Gounon
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u/Kaloo75 Rebellion May 21 '23
Speaking of madman... I watched his father drive the wheels of a LMP1? at Le Mans something like 30 years ago. If I remember correctly he was catching up on the leader, and drove like an absolute madman for 2 hours, until (I think) the gearbox broke. JM Gounon was always good for some sprited driving but that day was extra special. :)
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
I watched his father drive the wheels of a LMP1? at Le Mans something like 30 years ago.
i think that's still in Group C era
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u/PoorButRich Glickenhaus 007 LMH #709 May 21 '23
Potentially controversial but imo the blame is a lot more even between pros and ams. Amateurs in slower cars have been a part of the event for forever and the pros seem to be more impatient than typical this year. My read of the Dacia incident was that Heinrich just rammed him, there was the contact with the SP9 Merc and the TCR Hyundai and multiple incidents of SP9s going on the grass which just seems to be unnecessary risk in a 24H race. Not to say that slower class cars haven’t been involved in dumb incidents of their own doing (Cayman and Konrad Lambo in quali, Cayman and Engel on the race) but I think some of the pros need to appreciate the skill difference between them and 50-odd year old businessmen and behave accordingly.
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u/schelmo May 21 '23
As much as I like Laurin Heinrich the crash was totally on him and the stewards agree.
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u/AvedaAvedez May 22 '23
Due to the length of the circuit, how the caution notifications and implementations work, as well as differences in speed level, there is a lot of incentive for drivers to take a lot of risk to win, compared to something like 24hr Spa, even if that risk seemed unnecessary at times
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u/BigSlav667 Corvette Racing C8.R #33 May 21 '23
I understand she might not like it but that's what the Nurburgring 24 is, no? Amateurs who have years upon years of racing at the Nurburgring against the best Pros from all corners of the world...
Besides, the Dacia Logan wasn't at fault at all :/
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u/leo_murray May 21 '23
i wonder if this opinion comes from her s/o Gounon’s retirement, (the #3 GetSpeed Mercedes) but she’s completely off the mark here. in multi-class racing the Pro holds 95% of responsibility in overtaking the slower car/the am driver. furthermore this is the N24, one of the best races of the year because of its huge range of classes. imagine this race without the Logan, the Manta, the works Mini? this is the Nürburgring, if you get upset over the slower classes then this race is not for you.
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u/Trololman72 Peugeot 9X8 #93 May 21 '23
imagine this race without the Logan, the Manta
No need to imagine, just wait for the next edition.
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u/overlydelicioustea Mazda 787b #55 May 22 '23
what happened to the manta?
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u/TomPlaysYT May 22 '23
From what I've heard they've decided to retire it after this year's event because they're running out of spare parts
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u/mobileuseratwork May 21 '23
This might be a dumb take...
But it makes for an awesome reason to have proximity coms between the drivers.
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u/phatboi23 Snatch-Tractor Le Mans 2018 May 21 '23
But it makes for an awesome reason to have proximity coms between the drivers.
the shit talking would be legendary.
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u/mac_attack09 Porsche Penske Motorsport 963 #6 May 21 '23
This is like saying they should have gotten rid of LMP1 because of the speed difference to the GT cars
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u/Trololman72 Peugeot 9X8 #93 May 21 '23
It's like saying they should have gotten rid of GTE because the LMP1s were too fast.
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
is the speed difference similar percentage wise? or are the GTE cars closer to the pace of LMP1s compared to SP9 in comparison to the lowest class there?
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u/imgonnaboooooooost May 21 '23
wtf is this message fuck off honestly
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u/Makalu Toyota Gazoo GR010 #7 May 21 '23
She’s pissed that Engel? crashed into a Cayman forcing her boyfriend Jules Gounon to not be able to win the race this year
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u/imgonnaboooooooost May 21 '23
She's being critical of the entire event and even attempting to undermine the permit program.
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u/Mani1610 May 22 '23
I honestly think the whole permit thing is really really good. Like the Nürburgring and it's rules are just very different to your average racing event and it's not that easy to get a permit either, you need to spend quite some time to fullfill all of the requirements. They also don't do any exceptions even if you have raced F1 for example, no idea what she would like them to change.
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u/JohnstonDoe May 21 '23
Personally from a PRO driver, I expect to drive sensible enough not to hit into a slower class car every 5 laps.
Nobody's forced to take those crazy risks, especially if you see, what kinda top cars crashed out of the race or got huge setbacks because of crashing into traffic.
Apparently Mrs. Gatting doesn't understand the essence and DNA of the Nürburgring (NLS and 24h).
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u/PI-E0423 May 21 '23
Taking more risk while overtaking is what can win you that race. When Land won, they took some risk with the tires but the driver also overtook on wet grass several times.
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u/JohnstonDoe May 21 '23
I haven't seen Frikadelli taking those risks in the last 22 hours. And they haven't hit shit so far.
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u/Mani1610 May 21 '23
They were off track a few times and a puncture which also could be a sign of contact / being off track. Nobody wins this race without taking those risks, the time loss just is to big.
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u/LiquidDiviums Ferrari May 21 '23
The Ferrari got a puncture due to debris. Otherwise the car is intact.
(Yet, 35 minutes to go).
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u/PI-E0423 May 21 '23
Just 10 minutes ago they overtook a 992 gt3 cup with two tires on the grass when it did not decide for a direction right away. So maybe look at the stream instead of you phone.
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u/CFLee03 May 21 '23
I would sooner be happy if they remove the GT3 factory teams than the amateurs. The condescension from pros (and apparently their significant others) is insane. Like Maro Engel, even trying to be gentle came across as condescending. They get to race so many times across the year, some of these folks don't get more than this. If you want a different vibe, do a different race. But the Pro/Am split IS the Nurburgring 24 Hours.
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u/ABritishFan May 21 '23
She's not even talking about the Dacia, she's talking about the Cayman that did a hard left in front of her partner's Mercedes. Everyone knows Heinrich screwed up when hitting the Logan, that's not in doubt. Theres some sketchy moves being made by lower class cars, there's a minority of drivers out there, that are dangerous I'm afraid
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u/mole55 May 21 '23
well then get rid of the pros. this is the one endurance race that still allows somewhat standard cars (and they’ve still had to cut some of the slower ones for safety reasons). i would much rather preserve that then turn it into another GT3+GT4+TCR race
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u/Lonyo May 21 '23
There's a 24 hour race going on at Silverstone at the same time. Exclusively for Citroen C1s
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u/therealdilbert May 21 '23
yeh, there is something special about privateers building and racing somewhat standard cars. But it rarely lasts as if it gains popularity the factory backed outfits with massive budgets show up winning everything and driving the cost sky high an every one leaves. Been the end of pretty every racing series that is no more
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u/Ok-Estate9542 May 21 '23
I would argue that most of the crashes is caused by pro drivers unwilling to lose a couple of tenths behind a slower car. They take risks not worth taking especially in a 24 hour race. The GT3s are way faster than the lower classes. To expect the slow cars to watch their mirrors half the time while racing their own race in the green hell is demanding too much from the lower class drivers. The onus is on the pro drivers to manage the risk when the overtake a slower moving car
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u/m1rr0rshades Audi R18 May 21 '23
It's always the responsibility of the pro driver to pass the am safely, inexperience and unpredictablity should be factored in to the pass attempt. It's a 24hr race at a track with a bajillion corners, there's no need to overtake if there is any doubt at all.
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
From watching Jimmy broadbents accident in Daytona 24h virtual it's the responsibility of the slower car to make its line predictable while the faster car is gonna find the opportunity to safely pass
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u/k2_jackal May 21 '23
It’s both. You’re correct the faster car is responsible to make the pass safely but the slower car has a responsibility to hold their normal racing line. As soon as the slower car starts trying to get out of the way is when things get ugly.
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u/m1rr0rshades Audi R18 May 21 '23
I think the problem with the Nords is that 90% of the 'straights' where you might reasonably expect the slower car to maintain one line, aren't actually straight. So it's easy for an Am driver to drift over inadvertently, when they are also thinking about watching the mirrors, breaking point for the next corner, gaps in front/behind etc at the same time.
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u/KugelKurt Proton Competition Porsche 911 RSR-19 #88 May 21 '23
It's always the responsibility of the pro driver to pass the am safely, inexperience and unpredictablity should be factored in to the pass attempt.
Yeah, I found it so weird that the GT3 cars closed the gap until only a few centimeters and then made a sudden move to pass.
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u/oalfonso Corvette Racing C7.R #63 May 21 '23
Considering the race origins and spirit then it is time to ban the pro lineups.
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u/01000101010001010 May 21 '23
A tale of risk aversion and how some people don´t go as far as others.
There are enough people willing to participate. Nobody needs you, Michelle.
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u/Fivecorr Audi R18 May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
It's an amateur race with pros competing, unlike Daytona, Sebring, LeMans or Spa that are OEM-Pro races with a few AM drivers.
The car count is already super low compared to a few years ago. Should this race be turned into another GT3 fest, like the 12h of Bathurst?!
It's easy to blame Joe Shmoe if you are a world-class GT3 driver. And sometimes it's really the AMs driver's fault. But that doesn't pay your $300k bill and gets you back into the race.
*E It looks like we are at a point where the race officials have to make a decision. Do you want to become a real pro event and get rid of 70+% of the grid, or do we go back to roots and remove those SP9/GT3 monsters killing the nature and spirit of that race? Or just keep the status quo and deal with the pros crying about amateurs taking part in an AM event.
There are more than enough pro GT3 events!
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u/Tonoigtonbawtumgaer May 21 '23
Certified Bagnaia moment (more or less)
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u/PI-E0423 May 21 '23
Hahaha a hot take while being salty?
Pecco maybe should avoid Media when angry
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u/donutsnail May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
Does anyone have the numbers to say it happened more times this year than in the past?
Definitely part of me agrees with her, it’s wild seeing SP9 cars get hip checked by a slower car mid-pass. I know that the general consensus is often that any incident between a pro and an am that the fault lies with the pro, but I don’t agree with that in this context having seen the behavior of some of these ams.
But the other part of me knows this is part and parcel of the N24, and this year doesn’t seem any different from previous years on that front. We simply had fewer weather interruptions
Where is the original post from? I can’t find it
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u/Theteacupman May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
This is such a stupid take considering the Dacia wasn't even at fault for the incident. Plus the pros are the ones taking uneeded risks by going onto the grass to pass the slower cars.
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May 21 '23
This is going to be a fun comment section
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u/beetroot_salads May 21 '23
god forbid we lose the dacia logan and opel manta
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u/Competitive-Ad-498 May 21 '23
The Dacia is beyond repair and the Manta raced its last Nürburgring 24h.
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May 21 '23
[deleted]
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May 22 '23
https://us.motorsport.com/endurance/news/foxtail-opel-manta-withdrawal-spat/5445802/
This was all said in what was going to be a final 2022 run of the car. But it got burned out in a fire so they skipped 2022 and rebuilt it for 2023.
Per that article, rules changes have made it more expensive for that car to enter, as well as being slowed as it has to be part of the SP3 class now which requires adding ballast. The SP3 is a shrinking class as well, only a few cars left.
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u/Jonnix44 May 22 '23
Michelle has a perfectly valid opinion on this race and she can choose whether to compete in the N24 or not.The truth is events like the N24,Le Mans 24,Spa 24,Isle of Man TT,Indy 500,Pikes Peak are the most exciting events in motorsport because of the high speeds & the danger.If motorsport was just about events at Abu Dhabi,Dubai or most of the Tilkedromes then it would be not much more exciting than watching sim racing where there is zero danger.The N24 is one of the best races because we know that if any of had the money,time and wanted to compete,we could hire a drive in a BMW 220 and race againt some of the best drivers in the world in the same race.You cannot do that in many other sports.
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u/anxiousauditor Cadillac Racing V-Series R #2 May 21 '23
GT3s are just so fast these days and the pace of the race dictates so much take and very little give. It’s not a surprise that many of the lower classes have started to dwindle in car count. So hard not to get flattened at some point.
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u/schelmo May 21 '23
GT3 speeds at the Nürburgring have actually been fairly consistent for years. They're probably the slowest GT3 class of any championship out there because the organizers desperately don't want them to go faster than 8 minutes per lap for safety reasons so they reign them in a lot through BoP.
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u/anxiousauditor Cadillac Racing V-Series R #2 May 21 '23
They’ve done a good job of keeping them mostly in check since the Flugplatz incident but they’re still wicked quick and developed compared to everything else out there and still setting pole records. They’re much quicker than they were a decade ago.
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May 21 '23
[deleted]
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u/anxiousauditor Cadillac Racing V-Series R #2 May 21 '23
It’s a great GT3 event for sure. About as stacked as you’ll find.
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May 21 '23
Uh. That's Multi-Class Racing? It's the way the Race runs since 1970... Le Mans even longer. Maybe GT3 Pro Driver should be more cautious? It's THEIR responsibility to overtake slower Cars safely. Looks like Race Control needs to be more strict again. GT3s Drivers get too greedy again, for tenth of seconds...
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u/boralis_superalis May 21 '23
Okay Michelle you not taking part was always allowed and given your opinion on the event probably the preferred option for all parties involved.
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May 21 '23
What a concern-troll way of writing it. Dealing with traffic is part of the art, and mistakes will also always happen. It's not like anything happens on purpose.
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u/CT323 May 21 '23
If you're frightened, don't do it. This is the spirit of endurance.
Hindy said the future of the race is in the drivers hands so be trusting of the responsibility
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u/Potential-Brain7735 May 21 '23
It’s a good thing she won’t be doing this race, because if she thinks it’s the job of the slower car to get out of the way of the fast car, then she has no idea how multi class racing works, and she would likely be a danger on the circuit.
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u/SoothedSnakePlant May 21 '23
Nowhere does she say it's their job to get out of the way, she says they don't know where to position themselves. If you watch any of this race, you'll see slower cars confusing faster cars all the time explicitly because they keep trying to dart out of the way.
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u/brock1samson9 Audi R10 TDI #2 May 21 '23
Nobody cares Michelle. If you don't want to take part then don't take part
Considering she hasn't ever taken part in the event before and has only considered it I don't think any organizer or competitor cares about her rethinking that consideration.
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u/Jawsers May 23 '23
By the amount of sad comments in here, seems like there are a few people that care.
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u/AlexF2810 May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
This year's race had relatively few crashes between classes compared to most years. What the fuck is she talking about.
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
wait, you're telling me there's usually MORE accidents?
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u/AlexF2810 May 21 '23
Honestly this year was pretty good for green flag racing. It's not uncommon to have so many slow zones that they join them up and you cruise for a few miles at slow speeds
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u/BAHOZ26 May 21 '23
She mad the car of Gunon, her bf, retired…. Lost all my respect for her - imagine her takes for a race like the N24…
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u/TheRacingElf Silk Cut Jaguar #3 May 21 '23
Yeah well I definitely don't agree with her on this one...
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u/Error404LifeNotFound May 21 '23
let's be real. with a race that long, and a track that big, the only thing keeping cars close together is the fact that they'll get caught up in traffic. if you lose that, you'll get a procession for 20 hours after the initial overtakes from pace differential are completed.
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
Nürburgring is also narrower than most tracks, making cleaner overtakes more difficult
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u/izzyeviel May 21 '23
She ain’t gonna enjoy Le Mans…
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 21 '23
VLN and WEC are two completely different categories of multi-class racing, the budget for a GTE-AM is far greater than the lowest class of VLN
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u/Dashermane24 May 22 '23
As much as I love some dude in his Lancia being out there with full fledged GT3 teams, she kinda has a point.
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May 22 '23
This is one of the top three hardest tracks are you fucking kidding me and it's 24 hours like no shit there's going to be crashes
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u/kierenf13 May 22 '23
Feel free to explain why it won’t work but I feel like there should a rule of slower cars should pull to one side so it takes away the guess work on where they should be made say if blue flags come out then pull to the right of the track instead of them guessing where to go?
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May 22 '23
I sense that, without directly implicating it, she's implying the Dacia incident. If so, she's wrong. The Dacia had done a very good job of minding it's business the whole race up until that incident. Totally on the "pro" driver that one.
In essence, it swings both ways Michelle and if you don't feel like the race is suitable for you to drive, don't drive it.
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u/MLPorsche Toyota Gazoo Racing TS050 #5 May 22 '23
She is most likely referring to the /#3 Mercedes and Cayman incident
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u/Noerdk May 21 '23
This is the DNA of this race. Its a massive grid with a massive gap between top drivers and amateurs.
If you are not into that and what comes with it, it is totally the right call to stay away from racing it. :)