r/sendinthetanks • u/GatorGuard • May 21 '23
No Russian Chauvanism/Nationalism
I'll start with the usual preface: NATO instigated the coup in Ukraine and replaced the government with Nazis. Ukraine's military is fascist. Ukraine and its NATO puppeteers bombed the Donbas and are responsible for Russia's retaliation which has escalated into war. It is good Nazis are being taken out of power there.
What we aren't going to do, is pretend that Russia's forces are good just because they challenge US unipolarity. The Wagner group is a private military corporation whose founding military leadership had Nazi ties. Their government is still headed by capitalists that conspired to end the Soviet Union and sell it piecemeal at the expense of millions of Russians. You do not, by any means, have to 'hand it to them'.
We are Marxists. This is a Marxist subreddit. We aren't gleeful and thrilled by the concept of violence in the class struggle, we see it as a necessary and difficult means to defend our class's gains -- and the Russia-Ukraine conflict is not a class struggle.
We are not going to have people here glorifying this conflict. No uncritical posting of Russian soldiers acting tough or gloating about their nice equipment. No rave crab videos because Bakhmut fell. No childish sycophancy for the Russian military or government.
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May 21 '23
Thank you. Russians and Ukrainians have been brethren since the Kievan Rus or longer. They were the most advanced and strongest of the first socialist republics. They, together, made up the majority of the red army and liberated Europe from fascism. This war shows us how depraved bourgeois corruption has been in Eastern Europe. How it turns brother against brother in slaughter over capitalist spheres of influence. Westerners, focus on your own fucking house that created this situation, but do not engage in the nationalism that has been fueled there. It would be to spit in the face of the revolutionaries that fought for the proletariat of these societies. It will take years to heal and replace that nationalism with internationalism again, but the bourgeoisie of both the west and east will need to hang for this.
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u/iHerpTheDerp511 May 22 '23
Thank you for saying this as it actually captures the struggle I’ve had with so many so-called Marxists who praise Russia in this conflict. I’ve had people in many other Marxist subs (based and not) who’ve tried to argue with me that supporting Russia in this conflict is something Americans need to do in the name of internationalism. I always responded with the phrase from Lenin: ”A revolutionaries during first and foremost is to Combat their own national bourgeoisie before attempting to combat the international bourgeoisie” and they always argued ‘yeah but that’s not an internationalist position!’
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May 21 '23
As Marxists, we should also notice that workers at Ulyanovsky Avtomobilny Zavod (UAZ) car factory are on strike to receive their low salaries. Russian police arrested seven workers partecipating to the strike.
Also, the current economic strategy of Russian Oligarchs is just "move gas pumps to East" while Russian scientists kept losing their jobs.
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u/RedFlagbearer1922 May 27 '23 edited Oct 23 '23
I think that critical support of Russia has some reason to it, though; hear me out. Obviously people who think Russia is the USSR 2.0 are delusional, but a Russian victory is still far more beneficial for Socialist movements around the world than a stalemate or Ukraine/NATO victory. As much as they want to act like it isn't the case, NATO will have a hard time financially and materially recovering from the trillions they've poured into Ukraine, and they are allocating precious intelligence resources to disrupting Russia's war effort.
What this means is that as long as their eyes are on Russia, Socialist movements in the Global South have a rare opportunity that has not been present since the Cold War to be able to scrape out an existence without immediately being disappeared by Western powers. A Russian victory will further cripple Western efforts in suppressing the Global Left, while a Russian loss will mean that NATO powers can immediately go back to solely focusing on ensuring no country or movement ever challenges their dominance.
It is not very different to how the Russian revolutionaries had to make concessions to the German Empire at the end of WW1. By allowing the Germans to keep the Allied Powers busy, they were able to overthrow the Tsar with far less disruption than if they did not form a truce with the GE on the principle of not wanting to make concessions to an imperialist nation.
I think it's also important to mention that the RF and Belarus have pretty lenient stances on Communism/Socialism and Soviet nostalgia compared to most former Eastern Bloc countries. Ukraine is literally killing them, in most of Eastern Europe and the Baltics simply possessing a Soviet flag can result in jail time, and the Central Asian republics are increasingly cracking down on Soviet nostalgism. In Western countries, basically every Communist/Socialist movement is controlled opposition that simply exist to 'prove' that free speech is a thing there. Western countries would never allow a solid, serious Socialist movement to form within them. Russia and Belarus are by no means pure or beacons of Socialism, but the fact they aren't outright killing/jailing people for singing the Internationale or owning a USSR flag is something people need to remember.
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May 21 '23
Thank you the vibe has been questionable here lately we support the workers and the poor, let’s remember who we are.
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u/11-22-1963 May 23 '23
Excellent post. I'd also like to add that the Russian bourgeoisie subdued the genuine communist tendencies in the Donbas republics and turned them into client states. The current leaders in the parliaments in both republics were hand-picked in Moscow.
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u/Renegade_ExMormon Jul 15 '23
That link doesn't seem to work, at least for me. Have another that does?
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u/elimars May 21 '23
I vehemently disagree with the “both sides bad” sentiment on display here but I do agree that this sub shouldn’t be allowed to devolve into a glorified Russo-Ukrainian war highlight reel like GenZedong did right before it got quarantined.
I fell into the bad habit of getting way too emotionally invested in the course of the SMO early on in 2022 and I regret how much I used to post about it, especially on Reddit.
I’ll just say that the near decade long antifascist struggle of the people of Donbass and their pursuit of self-determination should be supported by all who consider themselves anti-imperialists. This is their fight and they have the most to lose out of anyone should Russia falter in their pledge to protect them against the Maidan nazi regime.
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u/HogarthTheMerciless May 21 '23
Can you explain whats "both sides bad" about this post and why exactly Russia is not in fact also bad? I recognize that Russia has done a lot to be a thorn in the USA's side, giving aid to US' enemies often, thus supporting the right side, if only for selfish reasons, but why should I believe Russia is doing anything out of a moral sense when Putin is pretty fucking far from anything resembling socialist?
I am not against the view that perhaps Russia is less to blame then this post seems to imply, but it seems like this post is just calling out the idea that socialists should support Russia as a state just because it's on the right side of this war. Is that really just the same as saying "both sides bad"?
The only other thing I will say about Russia is that they are strong allies to China and will aid in the building of a multipolar world, but I fail to see that this is out of anything other than self interest.
I'm not rigid in my views on this, I'm willing to try and understand different views, but as of now I don't get it.
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u/elimars May 21 '23 edited May 21 '23
With all due respect, I’m not really trying to debate. I’ve already said what I needed to say.
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u/HogarthTheMerciless May 22 '23
I wasn't looking for a debate. I was hoping you could share some links or something since it seems to be very difficult to study about this war without falling into one side or the others apologia.
I want to understand why you have the position you have. I find this particular conflict extremely difficult to find good information on, so I appreciate any kind of sources you could help provide me to better educate myself on this perspective if possible. If not, then all well, I'll just keep digging around.
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May 23 '23
Idk what you would regard as good information but I just listen to Russian communists from the KPRF
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u/Mr_Mujeriego May 21 '23
The conflict in Ukraine is absolutely centered around class struggle. Its why the KPRF and RCWP have said all along that the Russian bourgeoisie will be unwilling to actually get rid of the fascists in Kiev and will make a deal with them at the last moment. Just like the US capitalists did with the planter class in the south. That only socialism can fully defeat fascism which means setting the foundation for a socialist revolution in Russia once the Russian bourgeoisie strike a deal.
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u/PanchoVilla4TW Sep 14 '23
Gringos : Not advocating for DAEleRussiaBAD
Challenge level: impossible.
Russia's forces are good just because they challenge US unipolarity
They unironically are. China and DPRK agree, first world "communists" opinions are literally irrelevant lol.
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u/HogarthTheMerciless May 21 '23
Does anybody have some good reading material in regards to the first paragraph? Specifically this part:
NATO puppeteers bombed the Donbas and are responsible for Russia's retaliation which has escalated into war.
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u/StardustNaeku May 21 '23
Sadly there is not really much on it. Some documentaries, but mostly reports from JCCC and USCE (the latter confirmed the strikes but failed to find who fired them, obviously).
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May 21 '23
Thank you so much for this. I’ve seen way too many people treating the Russian Federation as tho it’s still upholding Marxist ideals. I have been repulsed by the amount of fan-camming done by people about their military and Russian advance in the war.
The same for Ukraine—they’re a bunch of fucking Nazis.
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u/RedFlagbearer1922 May 27 '23
I’ve seen way too many people treating the Russian Federation as tho it’s still upholding Marxist ideals.
People who think that modern Russia upholds Marxist ideas are delusional, however there is some good reason to (critically) support Russia - a Russian victory significantly weakens Western unipolarity and will make future Socialist movements more likely to survive. As much as they want to act like it, NATO will not easily financially recover from a loss in Ukraine, and with all the focus on disrupting Russia's war effort, Socialist movements in the global South have a rare opportunity to get off the ground without constant eyes on them and endless funding available to suppress them.
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u/weedcop420 May 23 '23
Can we ban the 3 accounts who have been spamming this subreddit nonstop with this shit? They’re completely clogging up the feed by spamming the same YouTube videos and substack articles about “Here’s how Russia can still win guys!!!!” Pretty sure this shit has just outright killed the sub, I remember it used to be a lot more active than this, now it’s just being used as a dumping ground for grifters.
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u/gouellette May 22 '23
Thanks comrade, this is the kind of reassurance we all need in the “Tankie-pipeline”. Knowing that uncritical support is the rhetoric of imperialism, and that violence and conflict as outcomes are never the goal, but that we are emotionally prepared to confront it (even in a virtual sense).
Politics isn’t some sports team event we can all cheer behind. As communists we recognize the human cost of conflict, and that’s what ties us in these struggles ✊🏽
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u/showmustgo May 22 '23
This was a long time coming, I thought this sub was abandoned by mods due to some of the Russian army bootlicking making it to my feed. I want to see the west's proxy war fail at much at the next communist but c'mon
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u/Ganem1227 May 21 '23
people need to stop treating this conflict like a sports match. People are dying over there and Marxists are not a death cult.
The worst ones are the telegram channels that just pump out footage of dead Russian and Ukrainian soldiers. That's sick and voyeuristic.