r/lebanon • u/Due_Inevitable_2784 kellon yaane kellon • 1d ago

Culture / History Rare clip from 1975 of Beirutis protesting sectarianism and Christian-Muslim conflict right before the start of civil war

Casual reminder that with the current ruling class, we will never have a proper state, no matter how "تغييري" our leaders claim to be.

136 Upvotes

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u/TheBroken0ne Drama King 1d ago edited 1d ago

Love that.

"Ma badna ta2ifiyyeh, Islem w masi7iyeh" and the 'belroo7 bel dam nafdeeka ya Lebnan".

No yellow flags, no Syrian flags, no labaykas, the sheikh and Christian old man hand in hand.

We underestimated our parents generation. They were more visionary then given credit for.

Sadly, the higher powers that be decided otherwise.

They knew that ruling us required breaking us, and so they sowed the seeds of fear, distrust, and division. And people walked right into the sectarian traps laid out by foreign powers, the zo3amas and their loyal minions.

A Lebanon of unity slipped through our fingers replaced by a sectarian reality we continue to pay the price for today.

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u/SammiSalammi 1d ago

1000% true. I remember first thing learned about Muslims when i was in school is Muslims wants us out of Lebanon. It was taught to me by a teacher who had Michel Aoun poster in his office and would say Aoun will protect our Christian rights this is why we should love him. And i grew up and figure it it was all brainwashing to make us hate the Muslims.

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u/Samer780 1d ago

I didn't hate Lebanese Muslims. To me they're citizens of this country same as I.

My problem stems from them not seeing themselves as such. The sunnis sided with the PLO when the PLO wanted to annihalate the Christians and the shia more recently followed Iran in their take over project instead of opting for a Lebanon for everyone.

Not to say the christians (specifically the maronites) are blameless. They should have reformed thr system when they had the chance before the PLO came in. Who knows maybe in a country where the muslims weren't second class citizens they wouldn't have so readily welcomed and abated the PLO's armed presence all over Leb. But even then I can understand the maronites reluctance. They feared for their existence and considered a Lebanon in which they were the dominant force the only guarantee for their continued survival in the Middle East plus they were the majority when Lebanon was created, it's understandable why they wouldn't want to overhaul the system.

Edit: all this and I still maintain and state 3al 3ale w 3a rass el satte7 enno "el marouniye el siyessiye hiye li 3emlet lebnen balad w hiye li 3emletkoun 3allam l. Kelkoun" my upper statemnt doesn't change that fact.

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u/SnooChipmunks9489 Lebanon 14h ago

Can you please tell me how muslims were second-class citizens? I'm not trying to argue here. I just want some information; anecdotes, links to articles, etc..

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u/Samer780 14h ago

Absat el omour. The constitutionally fixed christian majority.

Second thing is the prerogatives of the president of the republic. He could dissolve both the cabinet and the parliament at will and he was the one to name the prime minister without HAVING to go back to the parliament. The consultations weren't binding and even though the president only went against them once or twice and named who he wanted, and evwn though those powers were theoretical and seldom used their shadow was there.

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u/SnooChipmunks9489 Lebanon 13h ago

But isn't this kind of what we have today, but with the roles reversed between sects? At least the country was functioning better back then(not saying it was right), and the current people in charge have a cross-border identity and couldn't care less about Lebanon.

Anyways, my question wasn't solely in the political aspect, since I usually see comments on here saying the government didn't care about muslims living in the south and so on. Is this really about them being muslim, or simply the government didn't do much to the whole south back then, which is still the same practice today.

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u/Samer780 12h ago

Anyways, my question wasn't solely in the political aspect, since I usually see comments on here saying the government didn't care about muslims living in the south and so on.

The govt tried. What stood in their way were local zou3ama. They tried many projects especially in the chehab era. But were vigorously opposed in remoter areas.

Is this really about them being muslim, or simply the government didn't do much to the whole south back then, which is still the same practice today.

Back then the govt had more of a will to do something for the south and the north. But as always there were hurdles.

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u/SnooChipmunks9489 Lebanon 12h ago

Then i can't understand why everyone keeps blaming the government/country, which also many people tried to reform and overthrow for the sole purpose that it's marginalizing them. Now, they are marginalized more than ever, and the "government" became a puppet for syria and then iran. I'm still open to any different perspective, although I never received a proper answer about this topic on here, and I couldn't find much myself.

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u/Samer780 12h ago

They like blaming the govt bcz it fits their narratives enno "bala el sle7 bterja33o messe7i a7ziye".

Back then ken fi dawle w ken fi mou2assaset bss ma ken fi 3adele ejjtime3iye. Now under their rule la fi dawle w la fi mou2assasset w la fi 3adele ejjtime3iyye. So which was better? Reforming the state back then when we still could or just changing the power balance and putting it into the hands of anyone other than the maronites?

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u/SnooChipmunks9489 Lebanon 12h ago

If you get an education and build a country, you can break out of the masse7i az7ziye cycle without the need to fire a bullet. Bas baddak min ye2tene3 w ywa22ef 8asil dme8.

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u/gnus-migrate 18h ago

My problem stems from them not seeing themselves as such. The sunnis sided with the PLO when the PLO wanted to annihalate the Christians and the shia more recently followed Iran in their take over project instead of opting for a Lebanon for everyone.

I suggest you talk to more Muslims. If you mean the Arab identity, Lebanese people have both an Arab and a Lebanese identity. These things are not mutually exclusive. This is why I find the anti-Arabism annoying, it's very sectarian. Instead of recognizing the complexity of identity and how people see themselves, and accepting that people hold multiple identities at once, it tries to pigeonhole you into a specific identity so that it can justify imposing a political project on you that you never signed up for.

Considering yourself Arab doesn't mean you don't consider yourself Lebanese, and vice versa. Considering yourself Arab does not mean that you have an obligation towards any state, nor does it mean that you're part of the same culture as other Arabs. We share many things with other Arabs, mainly our language, however Arabs are an extremely diverse group of people with a long and rich history, and we shouldn't play into racist stereotypes portraying them all as the same.

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u/Samer780 18h ago

I suggest you talk to more Muslims.

I talk to many. I meant back then not today.

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u/Samer780 18h ago

Considering yourself Arab doesn't mean you don't consider yourself Lebanese, and vice versa. Considering yourself Arab does not mean that you have an obligation towards any state, nor does it mean that you're part of the same culture as other Arabs. We share many things with other Arabs, mainly our language, however Arabs are an extremely diverse group of people with a long and rich history, and we shouldn't play into racist stereotypes portraying them all as the same.

That's how I think but others do consider that they have obligations towards other states. Like iran for example.

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u/gnus-migrate 13h ago

That doesn't have anything to do with identity though.

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u/Samer780 12h ago

Mbala. When they say we go to war on iran's orders. Does that mean they identifiy as lebanese? Or do they just see lebanon as another platform for this struggle and that there's no such thing as lebanon and that it was a French creation? Their words not mine. They don't view lebanon as a viable independant entity that exists but rather as amother platform for their war w emtided lal mashrou3 el iraneh.

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u/gnus-migrate 11h ago

Does that mean they identifiy as lebanese?

Yes. Like I said, identity isn't either or. You can identify as a man, as a Shia, as a Lebanese, as part of a resistance, as many things. For them, the resistance is what protects Lebanon, not the army. Regardless of whether you agree with it, notice how the argument has nothing to do with Iran.

They don't view lebanon as a viable independant entity that exists but rather as amother platform for their war w emtided lal mashrou3 el iraneh.

I've never talked to a Hezb supporter and heard them say that they want wileyet el faqih in Lebanon. All I hear about is how Shia were marginalized, how they were abandoned to Israel and how Hezbollah kicked them out. This isn't an Iranian narrative, it's a Lebanese one.

They don't view lebanon as a viable independant entity that exists but rather as amother platform for their war w emtided lal mashrou3 el iraneh.

I don't know what to tell you but this isn't true of the average person. The party certainly views it that way, but their supporters tolerate it because they see it as protecting them.

I don't think you understand the fractures that have formed in their base over the last few years.

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u/Samer780 11h ago

I've never talked to a Hezb supporter and heard them say that they want wileyet el faqih in Lebanon. All I hear about is how Shia were marginalized, how they were abandoned to Israel and how Hezbollah kicked them out. This isn't an Iranian narrative, it's a Lebanese one.

Listen to their leadership especially Nasrallah during the early days. And now how their leadership would threaten the rest of the country. Or how "ento 19% yalla fello". (hashem saffieddine) or how "fi ness sarlna 7emlinoun 40 sene bl balad sarr lezim yfello". As for the state abandonning them to Israel this isn't true. The state collapsed during the war and the PLO had taken over the south, then the syrians took over the state and the rest of the country and wasn't interested in liberating the south from israeli occupation. and the army wasn't allowed back in so hezbollah could keep it's weapons to resist. Shi w menno kamen.

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u/gnus-migrate 11h ago

As for the state abandonning them to Israel this isn't true.

My point is that this is the narrative regardless of whether it's true, not we want to be ruled by the Khamenei. It centers on a Lebanese identity not an Iranian one.

Or how "ento 19% yalla fello".

Yeah these statements were gross and only amplified sectarian division, I completely agree. Nasrallah himself referred to bi2etna w bi2a ma3 Israel, basically 3am bikhawwen nos el balad.

Bas ne7na ma 3am ne7ke 3an min ma3o 7a2, 3am ne7ke 3an what identity does this kind of rhetoric reflect? 3am bikhawwenon men Iran, walla ken 3am bikhawwenon men Lebnen?

This is my point. Ma fik tet3ata ma3 lmawdou3 ka2annon mannon lebneniyyeh, ma fi 3endak mahrab heda jez2 men mojtama3ak majbour tet3ata ma3o. To me the "go back to Iran" rhetoric is a lazy cop out politicians use to avoid dealing with the root causes that led to this problem appearing in the first place.

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u/Samer780 11h ago

don't know what to tell you but this isn't true of the average person. The party certainly views it that way, but their supporters tolerate it because they see it as protecting them.

The average person sure. But the leadership has that project it's enacting and relies on the tolerance or outright support of the average person.

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u/gnus-migrate 11h ago

I agree. In that case you have to understand what motivates the average person to support it, and by understanding that you understand what could motivate them to stop supporting it and work on that.

Trying to paint them as different than is dehumanizing for one, also ma betwasslak lanatije.

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u/Samer780 1d ago

I didn't hate Lebanese Muslims. To me they're citizens of this country same as I.

My problem stems from them not seeing themselves as such. The sunnis sided with the PLO when the PLO wanted to annihalate the Christians and the shia more recently followed Iran in their take over project instead of opting for a Lebanon for everyone.

Not to say the christians (specifically the maronites) are blameless. They should have reformed thr system when they had the chance before the PLO came in. Who knows maybe in a country where the muslims weren't second class citizens they wouldn't have so readily welcomed and abated the PLO's armed presence all over Leb. But even then I can understand the maronites reluctance. They feared for their existence and considered a Lebanon in which they were the dominant force the only guarantee for their continued survival in the Middle East plus they were the majority when Lebanon was created, it's understandable why they wouldn't want to overhaul the system.

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u/Due_Inevitable_2784 kellon yaane kellon 1d ago

We underestimated our parents generation

The whole war was never about the people in the first place, i’ve heard many stories from during the war of fighters lounging together and partying during occasional truces. Lebanese people never had problems with each other individually. To the point where my friend’s mother (she’s syrian) sought shelter from a LF MP during the peak of the war. But unfortunately, الحكي الشعبوي ما بيبني بلد.

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u/mout_erom 1d ago

It’s so easy to blame the rulers. I disagree with this perspective.

People give power to the rulers. Either directly, or passively, by letting a vocal minority to decide for everyone else.

Tale as old as time.

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u/Bright_Aside_6827 1d ago

Are you telling me that hippies couldn't stop the war

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u/Due_Inevitable_2784 kellon yaane kellon 1d ago

Those same hippies probably joined the LCP 😂

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u/SammiSalammi 1d ago

Waht is lcp?

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u/moodindigo76 1d ago

Lebanese Communist Party

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u/961-Barbarian 1d ago

Lebanese Communist party maybe?

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u/ILikeSaintJoseph 4h ago

… that took part in the war?

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u/Due_Inevitable_2784 kellon yaane kellon 2h ago

You’d be surprised how many militias killed Lebanese people despite preaching about “unity” in their speeches many times.

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u/Heliopolis1992 Arak 1d ago

God bless these heroes ❤️

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u/Ricko9595 21h ago

It is ironic because this exact generation is the reason why we are so fucked right now...

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u/lebthrowawayanon3 17h ago

Would love if someone tracked them down and see what happened to them, where they are now..

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u/Sylvain-Occitanie 13h ago

That would be great, I'm sure many are still alive and in their 60s.

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u/[deleted] 10h ago

[deleted]

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u/Sylvain-Occitanie 9h ago

Wow you can be proud of your uncle, so sad that young people were sacrificed for nothing

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u/ScarsStitches800 16h ago

Better not mess with the "3idou" lady

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u/CatKlutzy7851 Lebanon 1d ago

Then came the Palestinians and messed things up.

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u/Due_Inevitable_2784 kellon yaane kellon 1d ago

Half the country sided with “those Palestinians”. It’s so easy to just point the finger and blame outsiders.

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u/Elegant_Teaching3417 1d ago

Exactly... Maybe now we can stop siding with Palestinians or against Israel.

And JUST side WITH 🇱🇧. Do what is best for Lebanon.

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u/Adz_13 23h ago

Then we can also blame half the country that sided with the Palestinians too. Easy

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u/Sylvain-Occitanie 1d ago

So sad that these people weren't heard

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u/bimansyd 1d ago

They’re all communists - the champagne sort…