r/itcouldhappenhere • u/EndOfTheLine00 • 13d ago
Do we really owe something to the nation in which we were born?
More and more we see discussions about how globalization is collapsing and how we should focus more on the local. But what about those who tried building a life somewhere else? I left my home country (Portugal) as soon as I started working and bounced around Europe and keep getting yelled at by both my family and even places like this sub that I should engage more with "my people". About that:
I hate my country. I don't care about its people, the culture is quite irrelevant. The only thing I like about them is the food. The people on the other hand are both docile towards those in power and kick those below or different from them when they are down. All the educated flee from the country for a reason: the work culture is terrible, micromanaging, abusive and low paying. My family keeps trying to get me to engage with the Portuguese community here but I refuse because I don't care about going to a party where the only common thread I have with people is my nationality. Give me a book club any day.
Yet I often feel that with growing tensions there is an increased sense of "well you should have stayed and improved things back home". Hell, I have even seen a lot of leftists argue that skilled migration should be heavily limited to "both preserve our country's citizens and also avoid draining poorer nations of talent". So does that mean that because you are born in a certain place to a certain family you should be doomed by that forever more? To take away the few mobility that still exists? To go back to literal serfdom? All because of some sense of "nationhood"?
Town, country, ethnicity, even family at times, they feel to me like concepts we should get rid of. We are all human. We should focus on shared values. And if the people around you don't share your values, then are we supposed to suppress them? It's like how my (borderline abusive) family likes to say "we can say whatever hurtful things we want to each other because we know we will always be forgiven. Because we are family. And that's what families do". Is that what we are going back to? Having this abstract concept be used as a cudgel for and against you to hurt and abuse?
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u/Boozewhore 13d ago
Brain drain is a different problem from abandoning your country because its politics are shit. Brain drain shouldn’t/cant/wont be addressed by blaming the people that leave. Brain drain is done by national economics on large scale.
No one has a duty to be bound to the country of origin for any reason.
You should tell your family you’re happier with what and where you’re going and that’s all that matters. Duh.
As for “even paces like this sub” Link comment/post, and let me at em! I’ll tear them apart! No one in this sub (of all places!) should think you have -any- duty to a 🤢nation🤢
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u/EndOfTheLine00 13d ago
The people in this sub mostly thought that I should move back home or find more Portuguese people as part of the general "find your tribe advice". The "stop brain drain for the poor countries' sake" crowd was somewhere else.
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u/all_my_dirty_secrets 13d ago
It would take me awhile to find specific comments and I can't say for certain there was anything in this specific sub. But I'm an American who is making long term plans to leave the US, or encourage my daughter to leave, due to the particular political climate here. As I read in various left-leaning subreddits, it's not uncommon for me to notice that people have strong reactions to others who talk about making that choice. Twoxpreppers comes to mind as one place. And to be honest, they have a decent argument: in leaving one could say that you're declining to stay and help those who will be hurt by the policies you're fleeing, for whom leaving is not an option. Ultimately I think it's a very individual decision, but I see the logic of that side.
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u/Ice_Swallow4u 13d ago
What a privilege, to just be able to leave when you don’t like things.
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u/all_my_dirty_secrets 13d ago
As a man you need to protect yourself at all times. I am never alone with a women I don’t really know, like ever, if I have to leave the room or go somewhere else I will. Always in public. It sucks sometimes, having to be guarded like that but that’s the world I live in. It’s really not that bad, just have to be aware.
I'll just leave this here from your comment history. Sucks to be trapped indeed.
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u/Ice_Swallow4u 13d ago
Lol what?
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u/Boozewhore 13d ago
That’s a hilarious thing for someone to say but, did you not really say it?
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u/Ice_Swallow4u 13d ago
Is it about my privilege as a man?
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u/Boozewhore 12d ago
If it was you that wrote it: then you should tell me what it’s about! I don’t know what’s going on.
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u/DavidKetamine 13d ago
I don't think anybody owes anything to the nation on which you were born. I do think community is really important but that's sort of what you make it. For a lot of people, including me, that does sort of start with family and friends which usually are congregated in a specific area of a country. But I don't think it's an ironclad rule. Roam till you find home.
Although I guess as an American I'd be curious- do you feel like there are problems in Portugal specifically that don't exist in other countries? Maybe I'm assuming too much commonality but I'd guess my problems are more or less everybody else's problems in the developed world except with language and culinary traditions swapped out.
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u/EndOfTheLine00 13d ago
The biggest problem is that we had the longest dictatorship in Western Europe) that set us back horribly in education and thus we have the most poorly educated employer class in the EU. That's only good for low value added enterprises like nails or textiles but all of those go to China. So the educated population flees and creates a vicious cycle.
That's not to say that we are on track of being one of the European countries that is going to be the most slammed by climate change yet no one talks about that.
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u/michaelsenpatrick 12d ago
Community is certainly hard to build but I'm happy to say my community building in my hometown is starting to feel like it's going somewhere. Hard finding the right people and neighbors
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u/Ur3rdIMcFly 13d ago
Loyalty is a two lane road.
If your country is working for you, building infrastructure, educating the kids, and ensuring everyone is fed, clothed, and housed, I believe you'd be naturally inclined to give back.
If your country bombs every square inch of any country that demands the boot be taken off their throat, well, let's just say I don't think that deserves loyalty.
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u/vivary_arc 13d ago edited 13d ago
I certainly would never say anyone has a duty to feel anything for their nation of origin.
I think the sentiment that maybe missing in some of those comments is that, there are people who feel the same frustrations/limitations/malaise as you in your same country of origin who cannot leave.
While you do not have a duty to others besides yourself, I think many who say stay and make your country better are thinking of those who cannot leave. If I and everyone like me who believes in legal access to abortion, that no human should go without healthcare and that all should be able to identify as they feel were to leave my deeply Republican state and move to a blue state that better represents my values that’s great but -
There are trans folks, people of color, poor folks and others who feel the same way but do not have the opportunity to leave for myriad reasons - Money, employment, family, health issues, etc. I would be one less vote in their favor for their rights, one less person who can argue alongside them (or in their stead if they don’t feel comfortable to do so). That is fundamentally leaving them behind, even though I have no duty to them personally. If you believe in those values, it is essentially choosing not to struggle, which is your own decision to make and is not necessarily right or wrong, as it is your experience. I do feel I have a duty to humanity.
I’m just saying ultimately if every avowed leftist up and leaves America for example, all of the people who do not consider themselves leftists but who are actually and materially effected by the policies of the far right - Be it because of who they love, their religion, ethnicity, educational level, economic status, etc. - will likely factually struggle more as the burden on them increases with less allies to fight on their behalf and offer them respite in even small ways.
Imagine if every secret abolitionist left the South during slavery, I imagine it would have made things like the Underground Railroad unlikely to have happened.
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u/WhoCalledthePoPo 13d ago
I might if my country had ever done anything for me. It's done nothing but be an expensive pain in the ass and an embarrassment. I can think of three foreign countries where I would love to live an contribute in a heartbeat.
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u/AlwaysSaysRepost 13d ago
I’m very pro migration and, especially, think people who feel targeted should be allowed to migrate. As someone from the US, let us get as many left-leaning educated migrants we can absorb. The “we are family and you should stick with us and forgive us is always used by the abuser. I guarantee that any family member who treats them the way they treat others will be cut off from the family and it would be “different “ for some reason.
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u/Effective-Ebb-2805 13d ago
You only owe anything to that which you have willingly given yourself to. A nation is only yours if you have given yourself to it. You owe nothing to accidents, such as your place of birth.
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u/Crawgdor 13d ago
Im a cross border accountant. Part of my job includes helping people get their affairs in order to renounce their US citizenship.
The families who remain in the USA can feel that a rejection of the USA is a personal rejection if they identify strongly with the country. And honestly the reaction is pretty understandable.
To doesn’t make those who leave and officially cut ties with their mother country bad or wrong. It just often strains relationships with family back in the mother country.
Everyone should be able to leave and search for a better life. But It’s easier to flee a country than to escape the opinions of your family.
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u/DrunkUranus 13d ago
A huge portion of the problems we're currently facing boil down to the fact that people are realizing and verbalizing the arbitrary nature of our social contracts. Not only do we not choose them with any meaningful consent, but anybody is free to violate them at any time.
I'm not a fan of nation states in general, but without the illusion of being bound to some binding law, we're left with anarchy.
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u/SuddenlySilva 11d ago
I have no loyalty to a place or a culture. I'm an American. I believe our constitution has real potential and I'd like to see my country go on. But my only loyalty is to my children and how to keep them safe.
But that's me. Most people are not wired that way.
Meanwhile, if you come to the united state you must visit New Bedford Massachusetts for the Portuguese food.
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u/FelixDhzernsky 12d ago
Ultimately, it's not going to matter. The right is taking over the narrative, the politics, the stance, in every single country that purports to be a "democracy" in this world. Where do you think you can go and make any difference whatsoever? You're joking. There's no place on the planet safe from capitalism and the rushing death-spiral. Norway and Finland aren't going to have universal health care 10 years from now, and they certainly aren't letting American dipshits in now.
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u/Blu_Skies_In_My_Head 13d ago
If you want to GTFO, go.~!
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u/EndOfTheLine00 13d ago
I did! But apparently it was a bad thing?
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u/Blu_Skies_In_My_Head 13d ago
IDK, this lecture is boring.
Literally, go. Or, will you be the first to liven up the Soviet Union?
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u/On_my_last_spoon 13d ago
I don’t think that the view of this pod is that your only community is the country or town you grew up in. Robert left Texas. Gare left Canada. James left Great Britain.
I always think of community as what you make it. I care about the town I live in now for sure. But also I care about the workers in my industry and have focused my efforts on labor.
Really, who cares what other people think? Go where the wind takes you. Get involved where you feel most connected.