r/europe • u/GPwat anti-imperialist thinker • 1d ago
News Hungarian ambassador distributes controversial National Atlas of Hungary as a Christmas present to NATO colleagues, Croatia criticises him - Only the regions of Lika and Gorski Kotar are shown as Croatia
https://svet.sme.sk/c/23429165/madarsky-velvyslanec-rozdal-kolegom-v-nato-sporny-atlas-chorvatsko-ho-kritizuje.html175
u/atechnokolos Hungary 1d ago
but like why the fuck would they do this
107
u/Snow_Mexican1 🇲🇰Russia is rightful North Macedonian lands🇲🇰 1d ago
Cause they're just trying to cause an even bigger divide in Europe so that Russia can exploit it.
332
u/FelizIntrovertido 1d ago
Making friends. Hungary is working hard to become the poorest country in Europe.
112
u/SteamTrout 1d ago
The only reason they have any money to begin with is EU and German love for cheap labour.
2
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
If it’s cheap Labour why not Somalia or Afghanistan? It’s not even the cheapest country in the EU. It should be pointed out that investment from EU based companies has been eclipsed by China (hence why Orban had been sucking up to Xi). I guess it’s easier for the Hungarian elite to get their cut from Chinese money than EU.
27
u/BeautifulTale6351 Hungary 1d ago
Somalia? Another borderline insane comment for today. Labor doesn't just mean manual work, it also means value added work like engineering. Cheap is relative to the value not just a number closest as possible to zero.
Hungary is consistently among the top 10-15 countries in the world in terms of economic complexity, above countries like Denmark, Belgium or Canada. Go and try to hire anyone in Afghanistan or Somalia for an R&D job.
9
u/desertedlamp4 1d ago
It's like second or third poorest country in EU
4
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
Yet there is more FDI in low wage countries like France, the Netherlands than Hungary.
Hungary is a popular location for historic reasons, with Budapest being a key centre of the former Ausro-Hungarian empire. Road and rail connections for that part of Central Europe are good. Other advantages include an educated workforce and lower costs. However, due to corruption in certain sectors of the economy, investment has slowed down or stopped in those areas, while the government has been courted and courted investment from China to replace EU investment.
7
u/Domeee123 Hungary 1d ago
Well Hungary is atleast stable and infinitely more safe than those countries.
3
u/dworthy444 Bayern 1d ago
Somalia is too unstable and Afghanistan is still too ideological to make it good for business. The Hungarian dictatorship is entrenched, easily sold to the highest bidder, but will not use drastic action against investors, at most pumping out propaganda about 'tyrannical Brussels' while doing nothing against EU investors. After all, the best place for business is a tyrannical government happy to suppress worker's organization and rights but also unlikely to start any wars with neighbors anytime soon, and Hungary fits the bill perfectly, especially due to relative proximity to Western Europe.
0
u/SteamTrout 1d ago
Because there is no border between Somalia and Germany?
Also Hungary is a little bit more stable then fucking Somalia.
2
-1
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
Thank you for proving my point. There are other factors BESIDE labour costs. It’s why countries like France, the Netherlands and Ireland get huge amounts of inward investments.
1
u/AlyoshaMitya 6h ago
It would of had more money if German capitalists didn't exploit Hungarian farmers and it's agricultural industry
5
u/Mr_strelac 1d ago
maybe in the european union.
but geographically speaking in europe, then there is no chance.
what we balkans can screw up, no one can stand in our way. maybe some sub-saharan african countries.
102
u/GPwat anti-imperialist thinker 1d ago
Hungarian ambassador distributes controversial atlas to NATO colleagues, Croatia criticises him
The atlas contains controversial maps and texts.
BREAKING. Croatian Foreign Minister Gordan Grlič Radman described as inappropriate the actions of the Hungarian ambassador to NATO, who gave his counterparts a national atlas of Hungary as a Christmas present.
Only the regions of Lika and Gorski Kotar are shown as Croatia, Hina news agency reported.
The atlas, which Hungary's permanent representative to NATO István Balogh gave to his NATO counterparts before Christmas, was printed in Budapest in 2021.
According to Grlič Radman, the Croatian Foreign Ministry is now examining the contents of the atlas. However, the minister already considers it "quite inappropriate" to hand out such a controversial atlas to ambassadors to NATO.
As he pointed out, although the atlas does not explicitly mention "Greater Hungary", it still contains questionable maps and texts.
The head of Croatian diplomacy also announced that he wanted to discuss this with his colleagues from Romania, Slovenia and Slovakia.
11
3
u/me_ir 1d ago
Is it an Atlas of historical maps of Hungary?
16
u/TheJiral 1d ago
Doesn't matter. The intent is clear and this is a diplomatic gift, so intent is the only thing that matters with such a gift.
11
u/Nazamroth 1d ago
So it is the thought that counts?
16
u/TheJiral 1d ago
In diplomacy gifts are just another form of messaging. It is not hard to guess the message from a guy who is wearing a map of Greater Hungary when visiting Romania.
12
u/Xcelsiorhs United States of America 1d ago
I hope the Croatian Ambassador gifted the Hungarian Ambassador a map of every NATO bomb dropped on Serbia.
For messaging of course…
182
u/Casimir_not_so_great Lesser Poland (Poland) 1d ago
Another country that cannot properly manage the territory already own, dreams about expansion.
46
u/Outrageous_pinecone 1d ago
That's precisely who dreams about expansion every time and it makes sense. If you know how to manage your territory, you're busy doing it, or at least trying to. Only someone who doesn't give a fuck about the problems within thinks about taking by force from their neighbor.
7
2
15
u/RedBaret 1d ago
Why try to develop your country when you can annex more developed provinces and raise your average development that way?
/s just to be sure
6
u/Casimir_not_so_great Lesser Poland (Poland) 1d ago
Not if you bomb it first into dust, duh.
8
u/RedBaret 1d ago
Unforeseen consequences they do not think about. They just see a big number. Big number good.
1
u/Casimir_not_so_great Lesser Poland (Poland) 1d ago
Unless the plan was to kickstart their economy by rebuilding this territories. Then yeah... 5d chess indeed.
100
u/Candid_Education_864 1d ago
This is so embarassing as hungarian, especially this fixation with Croatia.
We had the same kings but they always had sovereign territory.
This is like luxembourg or france could claim hungary as their own because we have had kings from those countries...
59
u/DiscountOdd480 1d ago
As a Croatian I really don’t understand this fixation with old maps. There are no borders as we are in Schengen, Hungarians can live, work, vacation anywhere and buy property in Croatia. Hungarian government can freely use port of Rijeka for shipping if they wish so.
26
u/Colonel__Kuratz Croatia 1d ago
I completely agree with you, but as a Croat you should perfectly understand fixation with old maps, revisionism, and armchair historians. This is part of the Balkan folklore.
11
u/oboris Croatia 1d ago
Yes, we have our own expansionists, but, even our dysfunctional government would never make such claims, hints whatever on such a high political/diplomatic level.
3
u/Colonel__Kuratz Croatia 1d ago
Absolutely agree, it's just not that difficult to imagine one of the right wing parties doing something like that if they would be in power.
1
8
79
u/LiveSir2395 1d ago edited 1d ago
Hungary is a pain in the ass. Citizens tell me it is getting more and more terrible in this shithole. Luckily enough the EU exists; Hungary would probably be at war with half a dozen countries without the EU. We must continue to hone in on corrupt Orban and his cronies.
28
10
u/mark-haus Sweden 1d ago edited 1d ago
Orban would struggle against ANY of their neighbors good luck being at war with all of them. And if they’re entertaining Poland, it will be over in a week.
1
26
12
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
Hungary does not have the means to be at war with one of it's neighbors, so being at war with many of them is a very nice wet dream you have.
11
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
It’s Orban’s dream…..lucky his « military » is very small.
8
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
You have know clue about his dreams. He was a liberal when it was good for him, he was a right winger when it was good for him. He is now a MAGA protectionist, because it's good for him. They spent 0 money on the military. If he want to expand he would have to spend money on the military, yet they don't do it.
8
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 1d ago
If he want to expand he would have to spend money on the military, yet they don't do it.
You can change borders without military. All you need is strong friends, which is why Orban hopes that Russia will destroy Ukraine and reward him with Zakarpattia.
2
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
Thankfully I can’t see into Orban’s mind (can the mind vomit?)
His motivation seems to be making himself rich and not going to prison.
3
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
Yeah, being in war with everyone around you makes you rich if you are winning, if you are not, you gonna die poor.
He is not the best person in the world, but he is smart enought not to be the most evil either. Money and power is the motivation. Lot of people seem to missunderstand what is the goal here. If Hungary is reduced to 3 villages, but he can save his family and buddies with the money, i bet he would be very, very happy with the outcome.1
36
15
6
u/redmerchant9 12h ago
It's funny how Serbia's Vucic is still best friends with Orban despite the fact that Orban wants to annex half of Serbia.
14
5
u/oboris Croatia 1d ago
I wonder if the proponents of this "mapping" would be willing to send their children to die for those territories.
Even Croatia has people who claim other countries' territories. However, no matter how f*cked up we are, no serious politician would openly advocate such thing. Sad and dangerous.
11
21
u/ParticularFix2104 1d ago
FFS they're STILL TRIGGERED ABOUT TRIANON???
GET OVER IT
Mongolias Empire was infinitely more impressive than your shitty Habsburg vassal ever was and they never give a damn about it!
4
u/aclart Portugal 1d ago
It's actually hard to find a country in Europe that didn't have a better empire that that pitiful infinite puddle of Hungarian nationalist but hurt. Hell, even outside of Europe...
Beyond pathetic attitude, it's insane that the good people of Hungary let this trash represent them on the international stage
4
u/dat_9600gt_user Lower Silesia (Poland) 1d ago
ZAGREB. Croatian Foreign Minister Gordan Grlic Radman called the actions of the Hungarian ambassador to NATO, who gave his counterparts a national atlas of Hungary as a Christmas present, inappropriate.
Only the regions of Lika and Gorski Kotar are shown as Croatia, Hina wrote.
The atlas, which Hungary's Permanent Representative to NATO, István Balogh, gave to his colleagues in the Alliance before Christmas, was printed in Budapest in 2021.
As he pointed out, the atlas does not explicitly mention "Greater Hungary" (i.e. Hungary - note. TASR), but it still contains questionable maps and texts.
At the same time, the head of Croatian diplomacy announced that he wanted to talk about it with his colleagues from Romania, Slovenia and Slovakia.
"Today's times are full of geopolitical challenges and security threats and require more dialogue and cooperation between European and transatlantic allies," he added.
In 2022, Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán also caused an international stir when he posed with a scarf with a map of Hungary in a video on a social network.
At the time, the Romanian Foreign Ministry and the Czech Foreign Minister called Orbán's speech unacceptable. Other countries, including Croatia and Ukraine, have expressed similar views.
3
u/eyyoorre Styria (Austria) 1d ago
If they wanna have the old times back, they sure won't mind us moving in, no? I mean, Sopron/Ödenburg was supposed to be the capital of Burgenland, so why not make all of Hungary Austrian again? /s
5
u/Estimated-Delivery 1d ago
As I’ve already said, he’s a proto-Putin. He wants the Austrian Hungarian Empire back. The Hapsburgs’ll be pleased.
9
u/Puzzleheaded_Age4413 1d ago
Victor Orkban also visits Romania wearing tshirts where Transylvania is part of Hungary. So petty and dumb, like do something about it, bitch.
-3
8
u/DeliciousAd8568 1d ago
Orban was on hollidays in Croatia not so long ago and he was wearing scarf where parts of croatia belong to hungary. And he was in company with our idiotic president who has wery suspitious view about ukranian war and putin and moscov. And our president didnt mind the scarf at all. Milanovic is probobly on a some kind of payrole as well. And he is gona win again at sunday. Politicians are in general POS people. Lowest moral and quality of people out there.
8
u/Efficient-Sea-8698 1d ago
Well...this guy forgets that the capital of Hungary was occupied twice by the army of one of the countries they want territory off( while Hungary was ruled by dictators)...and it was every time given back to the Hungarian people(in the last 110 years)
So they should pipe down the greater Hungary rhetoric and think more about improving the lives of current people in Hungary.
3
3
u/TheConquistaa In a galaxy far away 6h ago
Fair enough. I'm sure he'd appreciate a calendar with pictures of the Romanian occupation of Budapest in 1919 in the same manner. Nothing bad could come out of it.
6
u/ComplexFoundation608 Hungary 1d ago
Every day i read about Hungarian politics i get to play the depressing game of: "so was this incompetence, or actually malice?".
Its all so tiresome.
5
8
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
Where is this map? They not even gonna show it?
4
u/Sulejman_Dalmatinski 1d ago
The map looks soemthing like this
3
u/suicidemachine 1d ago
The borders on his scarf include some parts of today's Poland. Should I, as a Pole, be afraid of an imminent Hungarian invasion?
5
-26
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
So some random historical map showing the Kingdom of Hungary which did look like that for a bloody long time. The croats know that, because they were under a personal union until the Habsburd used to agains the hungarians so they can get even more power.
16
u/Sulejman_Dalmatinski 1d ago
Used as a symbol to raise chauvinistic sentiments, politicians are not usually avid historians in these cases (any map of greater anything).
17
u/anedisi 1d ago
Lol, imagine a German Chancellor wearing a map of second or third Reich. That would be great, or UK from begining of 20 century.
Historic maps are for history classes not to wear them around the neck. Like the fact that has to be explained is stupid.
-1
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
Imagine if you would treat this as what it is and not what they want you to belive?
There is yet to be a picture of what this gift is, but people here are saying that it's WW3, and Hungary is justifying claims on everyone around them and ready to go to war.
Also there is a very big difference between wearing a picture of the Kingdom of Hungary that had those borders for hundreds of years. And wearing a scarf with the map of the 3rd Reich.
Orban, Trump and all these people doing it for a reason. Not because they need justification to invade any country.3
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 23h ago
Also there is a very big difference between wearing a picture of the Kingdom of Hungary that had those borders for hundreds of years. And wearing a scarf with the map of the 3rd Reich.
What's the difference? It's both irredentist garbage.
11
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 1d ago
which did look like that for a bloody long time.
Well, as long as we ignore the bloody long time it was divided by the Ottomans. Also, Croatia was always its own thing.
until the Habsburd used to agains the hungarians so they can get even more power.
The Croats had their own reason not to like Hungary. Not everything is a Habsburg conspiracy to get poor innocent Hungary.
2
u/Anxious-Bite-2375 1d ago
Why would you show such historical maps in the first place right now?
If it was not for some historical even, then why the hell would you do that?
1
1d ago
[deleted]
2
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
Because there are no such maps what the article claims. Maps either show both kingdoms as 1, or show a line between the 2 kingdoms.
Nobody else wrote an article about this. This one showes the russian bootlicker foreign minister instead of the ambassador who is not a big secret, has plenty of pictures on the internet as he is the ambassador now since 2022 or 2023.
And for context, people who have ideas about being great again don't start with Croatia. The border there is very close to what the border was for a thousand year. This is why i dismiss some random map.2
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 23h ago
The border there is very close to what the border was for a thousand year.
So we ignoring the part where the border was redrawn by the Ottomans for centuries.
1
u/wannabeyesname 22h ago
1 and a half century for a small part and the border stayed the same, because they used the same established borders for their internal elayet borders.
2
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 22h ago edited 22h ago
We're not talking about internal borders.
Hungary ceased to exist as an independent kingdom in 1526, and was divided between Austria, Turkey and Transylvania. It remained divided like this for centuries.
The "1000 year borders" is irredentist and nationalist propaganda spread by Horthy. Even you seem to be fooled by this garbage.
1
u/wannabeyesname 22h ago
Again, Ottoman occupation was 150 years, so i dunno where you get those centuries you talking about. The Austrian used the same administrative borders. They used the same Union of Crowns, so each Kingdom was separetad in ways. Spoiler, they had a border between them. Hungary was not allowed to have heavy industry so they could not compete with the czechs. There was a big tariff on manufactured goods to discourage people from investing anything. but agriculture.
You are not talking about them, i can see that. I wrote them, because you seem to be so hard on making this an irredentist topic. I gave you reasons why nationalist don't bring up Croatia as many times as the other parts. You keep ignoring it, just pushing the same things. I don't know what is your issue is realy. If you don't like that i called it a thousand year border, say that. Still that border is there. In Social Science if there is a definitive line between 2 nations, you can call that a border between the nations.2
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 21h ago edited 21h ago
Ottoman occupation was 150 years, so i dunno where you get those centuries you talking about.
1000 - 150 = 850.
Alright, let's agree on this number then. The "850 year border". Is that fine?
The Austrian used the same administrative borders.
Transylvania was re-added to Hungary only in 1867. Before that it was a separate Habsburg province, divided from Hungary.
I gave you reasons why nationalist don't bring up Croatia as many times as the other parts.
Dude, Croatia is included on the "Greater Hungary" map. Zagreb is on the Trianon wall in Budapest. Are you now also blind?
If you don't like that i called it a thousand year border, say that.
I'm just pointing out that you're repeating old Horthy-era irredentist propaganda. If you don't like it, then say that.
→ More replies (0)
6
u/maplictisesc01 1d ago
they did that before, send out maps with their fantasy of what hungary should be
retarted in diplomacy is the right description for this
2
u/Decebalus_Bombadil 1d ago
In before romanians come up with a Thickest Romania map from 1919 that has Budapest and 1/3 of Hungary.
4
1
u/TheJiral 1d ago
Some crazy people (who happen to rule the country) really would love it so much if Hungary could be like Russia towards its neighbouring countries, but its not big enough and strong enough for its dream of Lebensraum. Terrifying actually.
While Austrians may fool around and make bad jokes about old Austria, it is just that, a joke. (maybe as sole exception being Südtirol, for some) but far too many Hungarians seem to be way to serious, certainly the ones at the top are.
2
u/Uriel42069666 Croatia 1d ago
Ban Jelačić intensifies.
They can claim all they want, they need to come and get it first. But they will find it a bit confusing since none of the signs are in Hungarian. So they will have a hard time navigating 😂
2
5
1
1
1
1
u/Iant-Iaur Dallas 1d ago
Hoćeš našu zemlju huh?
"Bilo je to godine, devetsto i treće,
Kad su našu Hrvatsku stigle nesreće.
Mađarske zastave digo Hedervary
Silom hoće Hrvatsku da nam pomađari.
Ustani bane, Hrvatska te zove, zove,
Ustani bane Jelačiću!
Nema junaka, nema Hrvata,
Kao što je bio Jelačić ban.
A sada njega crna zemlja krije.
I zelena trava prekrila mu grob."
1
u/JavaGmbH 1d ago
Why do we even waste time discussing actions of current Hungarian politicians and representatives? We know everything they say or do is stupid/DOA.
-19
u/halodon Hungary 1d ago
This is an atlas that contains old maps, nothing more. Is this really the most important thing right now? Orbán and Fico are literally Russian agents within the EU and NATO, committing significant crimes on a daily basis…
31
u/PROBA_V 🇪🇺🇧🇪 🌍🛰 1d ago
Context is key. Imagine Germany giving a map to Poland where it shows the old borders of the German reich, on a NATO summit.
Even if the maps is historically correct, it doesn't matter.
In the best case you are reminding them you used to own their land and saying how great you used to be. Which is pathetic.
In the worst case you'd be implying that you still claim over 50% of the land of your neighbour. Wich, especially at a NATO meeting, is pure provocation.
25
u/botle Sweden 1d ago
Just because a map is old doesn't mean it's correct. And especially when it's revived by being used in an atlas, it can be used for historical revisionism.
Orbán and Fico are literally Russian agents within the EU
That's what this criticism is pointing out I a way.
Hungary changing history to manufacture a historical claim on Croatian land, normalizes Putin doing the same in Ukraine.
8
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago
The 2 kingdoms were under a personal union for hundreds of years. A stupid atlas will not change anything here mate.
6
u/botle Sweden 1d ago
It's like Putin posing with historical maps of Ukraine trying to justify the invasion.
Sure, it's not going to change anything, but he sure as hell is trying anyway.
1
u/wannabeyesname 1d ago edited 1d ago
That's not true at all. Putin and many of his favourite historians claim, that Ukraine does not exist. They claim that the Rus that was established in Kyiv by the swedish guy is a proto-russian state. They claim there is no ukranian nation, this is merely just a dialect and every ruthenian is a russian.
Don't start claiming the same thing here. The "most" hungarians* do is claim there were more hungarians living in regions. There are nutjobs here, but nobody claims that there were no other nations living in Hungary. There are enought misinformation out there already, no need to make more.Edit: * i mean the extent, not that everyone does that. Nationalists today are a small minoritiy of the nation. Far more people are content with current borders with the EU freedome, than those who want to move the borders. Even with the russian propaganda being rampant here, they did not achive the same level of nationwide expansionist ideas, as there were between the 2 world wars.
2
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 23h ago edited 23h ago
There are nutjobs here, but nobody claims that there were no other nations living in Hungary.
No, they just falsely claim that all the other nations arrived only after Hungarians, and thus believe that Slovakia/Transylvania/Croatia are rightfully "Hungarian".
Nationalists today are a small minoritiy of the nation.
They are a majority in the government. Orban is an irredentist nutjob. The whole country is covered with hundreds of Trainon "memorials", all of which were built since he got in power.
1
u/wannabeyesname 22h ago
THIS IS AN ARTICLE ABOUT CROATIA MY MAN. Hallo?
Can you not repeat what i just wrote and claim you wrote something else? I wrote it down that people more talk about different parts of the kingdom, not the Croatia part, because that was well established border between the 2 nation for now a thousand year.
Again Orban is not an irredentist nutjob. He never talks about getting those territories back. They did not increase the military budget to get those territories back. He is talking about taking Brussels to make a right-wing wetdream fracture EU. The whole country is not covered in Trianon memorials. Some were even removed, because they were made by the russian satellite party and they were placed there without permission. Can you not spread misinformation?3
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 22h ago
because that was well established border between the 2 nation for now a thousand year.
The Ottomands dis-estabilished that border for centuries.
Again Orban is not an irredentist nutjob. He never talks about getting those territories back
No, he just makes wink-wink nudge-nudge "jokes" about it, while ordering hundreds of "Trianon memorials" to be build around the country, including a giant Trianon wall in Budapest.
You are naive. Orban is preparing the ground for when Putin gives him Zakarpattia.
3
u/botle Sweden 22h ago
He never talks about getting those territories back. They did not increase the military budget to get those territories back.
Of course he'd never do it. Nobody is worried about that.
The problem is that even hinting at it or joking about it is enough to help Putin normalize what he's very much actually doing.
Similar to Trump's talk about Greenland and Panama. It doesn't matter that he's never going to do it, because just the idea of a US president remotely suggesting it is in itself damaging.
2
u/botle Sweden 22h ago
I'm not saying it's exactly the same situation. It's not.
I'm saying that doing anything similar, like using maps from when your neighbors lands were supposedly yours as some sorts propaganda, is way too close to what Putin is doing.
Not identical, but close enough that Putin can point at it and go "Look, what I'm doing is normal. Others do it too.".
13
u/Canal_Volphied European Union 1d ago
A stupid atlas will not change anything here mate.
Tell that to Orban. He's the one obsessed with this map.
1
3
u/Outrageous_pinecone 1d ago
Orbán and Fico are literally Russian agents within the EU and NATO
Why do you think they did it? Most people may not put too much stock in mind games, but it's the glue that kept post tzarist Russia together and still does. It's what destabilized a more prosperous and stronger Europe by making everyone feel panicked and in perpetual danger, but more importantly, afraid and full of disdain for each other. Don't knock seemingly childish mind games. Bullies play them too and they can be quite effective.
4
u/MadeOfEurope 1d ago
It’s emblematic of the mentality of the ruling elite…..they have got high on their own far-right supply.
7
u/KernunQc7 Romania 1d ago edited 1d ago
"This is an atlas that contains old maps"
We are not buying this.
8
1d ago
[deleted]
0
u/CarelessMethod1933 1d ago
Što se pjeniš? Čovjek je napisao istinu. To što neki u Mađarskoj imaju problem s razlučivanjem prošlosti od sadašnjosti je drugi par cipela.
0
u/CommradeMoustache 1d ago
Pa upravo jer te povijesne karte koriste na praktički isti način kao i Putin. Shvaćam ja da su sve to budale, ali ignorirati ovo jer je Orban Putinov potrčko je glupo jer Orban upravo ovo radi kao Putinov potrčko. A i ono znaš kak je to; internet je najbolje mjesto za izbaciti frustracije iz pravog života haha
-5
0
u/Unlucky-Jello-5660 1d ago
Do you think countries would be impressed if the UK started handing out maps of the British empire at a commonwealth meeting?
-17
u/sevenwoundsofberic 1d ago
I would love to see the map itself. Based on comments here, people clearly not familiar with the existence of historical maps which might have been based on the political pressure of that time or other reasons. Some people here claim we should revise the historical documents based on current understanding, is quite clearly just an opportunity to get triggered.
Same time I do not doubt that hungarian goverment is able to do idiotic things. The idea that this is somekind of revision of history to claim croatian lands is simply insane.
9
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago
Two things:
[1] Croatia was never, unlike south Slovakia, Vojvodina or Transylvania, a part of Hungary. We were always in a personal union, with territories clearly divided, with low population of one nation living in another, with its own government leaders, parliaments, judiciary systems etc. That's why it's bizarre of Orban always trying to equate Croatia with the lands they lost in Trianon (which is weird to mention that often by itself).
[2] No matter how correct are historical maps in question (but in this case they aren't if they omit the personal union character of Croatia-Hungary relations), why in the world would a prime minister of one country gift another neighbouring and other European countries such maps? You don't think Macron gifting a map of Napoleons France to Germany would be surreal?
-4
u/sevenwoundsofberic 1d ago
1) That's why it's bizarre of Orban always trying to equate Croatia with the lands they lost in Trianon (which is weird to mention that often by itself). - I am almost 100% sure you have no reference to this, because even our mentally ill far-right neonazis do not claim this about Croatia.
2) They got a copy of the National Atlas of Hungary, which is not a map of Hungary as of 2024 but a collection of historical documents. Which map is the issue and basis of revisionism according to you (of the couple hundred)?
My best guess is it might be one of the historical administrative geography of Hungary, is it really that triggering, even though dozens of maps will show that Croatia was independent in the same book?
... or maybe some croatian political person using it to be in the news?
Most likely they got a copy of this.
National Atlas of Hungary | Volume 1 – State and Nation
My guess would be they have an issue with this chapter?
Still we do not even know which map is the issue but we already have the conclusions based on nothing.
15
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago
I am almost 100% sure you have no reference to this, because even our mentally ill far-right neonazis do not claim this about Croatia.
Excuse me?
Here's the photo of Orban with a scarf with Hungary containing parts of Croatia.
Why do they contiunously put Croatia on it, if you say they understand it was a personal union then?
And as I said, even if the map is correct and complete (which it isn't), how in the world can this be normal behaviour in civilized European society?
If Erdogan had a scarf of the height of Ottoman incursion in Europe (all the way up to Vienna, ergo containing big chunk of Hungary), would that be perfectly reasonable thing to do?
Do you think Macron wearing a scarf of teritorries of Napoleons France (containing Cologne, Hamburg, Mainz) would be nothing out of the ordinary to the Germans?
-4
u/BeautifulTale6351 Hungary 1d ago
As a Hungarian, I would not give a fuck about people wearing scarfs with incorrect maps on them. Not saying Orban is a likeable chap, but I literally, honestly wouldn't give a fuck.
9
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago
Nobody said regular people think this way. And especially no one said that we think you can or would do anything about realizing those plans.
But why do you think we should ignore a prime minister of a country doing it?
That's even offensive to say.
"Yeah, it's just our prime minister wanting your territories. You are dumb if you don't ignore it."
As if Hungary is some slow child that just rambles its own thing. Do you really think Europe should treat your nation as such?
-7
u/sevenwoundsofberic 1d ago
Why are you moving the goal post to a completely different topic? From Macron gifting some random atlas to wearing some scarf?
Go back to the original topic.
And as I said, even if the map is correct and complete (which it isn't), how in the world can this be normal behaviour in civilized European society?
Which map is incorrect and incomplete?
7
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago edited 1d ago
Why are you moving the goal post to a completely different topic?
What is wrong with you?
I literally said that Orban is doing something, proved it, yet you still won't accept it?
Macron and Erdogan are just additional examples of why is Orbans behaviour completely bizarre.
Why are you then avoiding answering my questions regarding that comparisons? Please, answer them.
Which map is incorrect and incomplete?
Literally the map on Orbans scarf on the photo I have posted.
Hungary has its own defined borders today and putting some historical map of Hungary on it (without even mentioning "this is historical map") is just insane. In that way it's not correct.
Furthermore, it's also not correct and complete in the sense I already written - it equates Croatia, which was in personal union with Hungary, with being an integral part of Hungary, which isn't true. It does't mark Croatia on it, it doesn't say personal union, nothing. It just has Hungarian colours over Croatia. Is that correct and complete?
Why are you even defending this? It's wrong on so many levels.
As I said, if similar thing happened with other European countries (and many of them, including Croatia, had territories much bigger than todays), it would be an international scandal. It's something that is so stupid and sociopathic, that 99% of politicians wouldn't even think about, let alone do it. Repeatedly.
And all of this is comming from someone who does know something about Hungarians and I always explain to my countrymen that you are perfectly aware of our relations and history, with there being no negative emotions among regular people. But to defend these lunacies?
0
u/sevenwoundsofberic 1d ago
I will explain later but let me make a wild guess. Croatia is going to have some type of election soon and one of the candidates are supported already by Orban (maybe not even so openly)?
10
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago edited 1d ago
You accused me of moving the goalpoasts, yet you now moved the whole field with asking this question?
Please answer the questions I asked you two times already.
To answer, yes, we have upcoming presidential elections (tomorrow).
But this question is not even in the slightest the main topic of it, nor do opinions of candidates differ on it. Current president (and candidate for re-election) is sometimes accused of friendly relations with Orban, but even those who vote for him are undeniably critical of this Orban behaviour.
I still don't get why are you defending it? Nobody in Croatia blames Hungarian people, it's Orban who wore that scarf. Or do you think there are more people in Hungary who share his stances?
1
u/sevenwoundsofberic 1d ago
I will be honest with you. Kinda gave up.
So to answer your original points and explain why I am defending it.
1) Croatia was never, unlike south Slovakia, Vojvodina or Transylvania, a part of Hungary. We were always in a personal union, with territories clearly divided, with low population of one nation living in another, with its own government leaders, parliaments, judiciary systems etc. That's why it's bizarre of Orban always trying to equate Croatia with the lands they lost in Trianon (which is weird to mention that often by itself).
1.1) Croatia was never, unlike south Slovakia, Vojvodina or Transylvania, a part of Hungary. We were always in a personal union, with territories clearly divided, with low population of one nation living in another, with its own government leaders, parliaments, judiciary systems etc. - nobody claims otherwise
1.2) That's why it's bizarre of Orban always trying to equate Croatia with the lands they lost in Trianon - absolutely made up, your evidence here a scarf.
1.3) Trianon (which is weird to mention that often by itself). - it is a valid national tragedy to be mentioned often, especially if there is zero evidence of any type revisionism.
2.) No matter how correct are historical maps in question (but in this case they aren't if they omit the personal union character of Croatia-Hungary relations), why in the world would a prime minister of one country gift another neighbouring and other European countries such maps? You don't think Macron gifting a map of Napoleons France to Germany would be surreal?
2.1.) No matter how correct are historical maps in question (but in this case they aren't if they omit the personal union character of Croatia-Hungary relations) - You do not care if it is correct but it is not - based on something. You still do not know which map what atlas is the issue.
2.2) why in the world would a prime minister of one country gift another neighbouring and other European countries such maps? - You do not even know who gifted it.
2.3) You don't think Macron gifting a map of Napoleons France to Germany would be surreal? - If the NATO ambassador would gift a book about the history of France, I actually would mind if not the original maps would be included. Not sure why we try to connect Macron to a delegate to NATO.
Reason I am seemingly defending it, although I would agree with majority of your points, that you already made a conclusion based who knows what. Like majority of your original comment is not even in line with original claim or the supposed book. Election is very much important, we usually blow stuff out of proportion around them.
I would not be surprised that the map had territories mentioned as Croatia, Slavonia, Dalmatia on it.
6
u/Strukani_Pelin Croatia 1d ago
nobody claims otherwise
For the third time, Orban claims it by wearing a scarf of supposed Hungarian territory containing parts of Croatia. There are no lines between it, no mention of personal union, just full on colours of Hungarian flag over Croatia.
Will you now, for the 3rd time, deny that fact again?
You do not even know who gifted it.
An official member of Hungairan state, not some random guy on the street.
If the NATO ambassador would gift a book about the history of France, I actually would mind if not the original maps would be included.
And what about a scarf which would have territories of Napoleons France included? Do you think Germans would not mind that?
And again, if Erdogan wears scarf with big parts of Hungary shown as Turkey, how would you feel about it?
→ More replies (0)9
u/TheJiral 1d ago
Like I said, it is about intent. Austria doesn't give out historical maps of Austria (back to maximalist maps of the HRE) to all the other EU member states. Does it? And Germany does not distribute Atlases including maps of the Third Reich, does it?
They don't because diplomatic gifts are all about showing intent. The intent when distributing those historical maps is clear and that is the only thing that matters with such a gift. Now, why they are doing it is a mystery. I assume domestic gains or they are really high on their own supply already, because those gifts do nothing but harm Hungary's relationships, with nothing to gain diplomatically.
-13
642
u/PhirlolandCol Piedmont(Italy)/Colima(Mexico) 1d ago
What a weird and dumb thing to do