r/boringdystopia • u/yuritopiaposadism • Oct 25 '24
Civil Liberties đ "AI powered" NYC subway safety scanners find zero guns in first month of trials despite flagging hundreds of riders. The AI isn't meant to detect weapons/drugs/violent behaviour or anything. It's meant to give the police probable cause to search you.
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u/Interesting_Ice8927 Oct 25 '24
Pilot programs with the likelihood to violate constitutional protections should not be a thing
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u/kerberos824 Oct 25 '24
Each scanner costs $125,000 for the four year contract. And they don't appear to do anything...
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u/met_MY_verse Oct 25 '24
Am I reading this wrong? 118 false positives at ~3000 alerts gives an error rate of ~4%. Not amazing but not completely terrible. I still donât support the system as it is currently but at least itâs not something outrageous like 20%.
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u/NiobiumThorn Oct 25 '24
I think if my face is shoved to the ground by an armed cop I don't care if the error rate is within "acceptable margins."
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u/met_MY_verse Oct 25 '24
Sure, power is abused and sometimes brutally, but from this (which clearly doesnât detail the exact processes) itâs only stated searches take place. Itâs not like the guards launch themselves at the person every time the scanner alerts, itâs more likely a quick pat-down.
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u/NoPrompt927 Oct 26 '24
It's still a 4th A violation if the cop has no legitimate suspiscion outside of a faulty AI scanner.
RAS is already vague af in legal proceedings; don't need a sketchy AI to make it worse, lol
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u/NiobiumThorn Oct 25 '24
[pat downs often are an extremely useful excuse to assault women but sure, just a quick pat down]
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u/isitmeyou-relooking4 Oct 25 '24
Only the false positives count when determining whether the alerts were good. SO there were 118 false positives, and 0% good positives. That is a 100% error rate for positives. That is not good for determining probable cause or reasonable suspicion.
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u/the_half_enchilada Oct 26 '24 edited Oct 26 '24
From what I can tell it's probably 100% error rate
2,749 total scans
12 knife reports
0 gun reports
118 false positives
0 arrests
89.83% failure rate at best if all knife reports were accurate
100% failure rate if all knife reports were false, unless it reports weapons other than guns and knives but I doubt that
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u/LuciferOfTheArchives Oct 25 '24
Okay, what I don't understand is that it prompted 3000 searches, found 0 guns, 11 possibly-illegal knives, but somehow that's only 118 false positives? What are the other alerts?
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u/Demento56 Oct 26 '24
I assume "search" is being used to describe "scanning somebody with the AI thing", rather than "we installed the AI thing in a subway terminal and did 3000 searches based on the alerts"
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u/year_39 Oct 26 '24
You're slipping pretty hard into the base rate fallacy here. This does nothing good and plenty of harm.
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u/met_MY_verse Oct 26 '24
Would you mind explaining? I donât doubt youâre right but I havenât heard of this one.
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u/year_39 Oct 26 '24
Thanks for assuming I was arguing in good faith. I'll try to make it simple because this was one of the harder fallacies for me to understand at first. You have to compare the true positive rate against the false positive rate to reach a meaningful conclusion.
The NYC subway system carries 3.6 million passengers per day and in Q1 2024, there were 49 violent felonies among 324,000,000 passengers - 1 in 6.6 million. Extrapolating from the 4% false detection rate, if every single passenger was scanned (for the sake of argument, let's say it was like an airport), 264,490 would have been stopped and searched because the magic box gave officers probable cause, 49 of them would be people who would go on to commit violent crimes; if all of them were carrying weapons, the bigger picture is that the false positive rate is 4% while the true positive rate is .000078%
The enormous gap between true positive and false positive is the problem, and that's why you can't say that 4% isn't so bad. That's 264,451 innocent people in 3 months, or 2938 people per day, stopped with probable cause based solely on the fact that a nearly useless magic box beeped.
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u/met_MY_verse Oct 26 '24
Thank you for your detailed response! This is a good point, I guess I was assuming that all true (âtrueâ) positives prevented a potentially serious and dangerous situation from developing, and so while 4% is admittedly high when considering the massive amount of people, it would be a price I personally am willing to pay for safety. However, with the extra consideration of actual violent felony count of course this no longer makes sense. Where Iâm from there isnât really an issue with people carrying weapons in public (certainly no firearms), so I must have initially assumed a correlation between weapon detection and actual crime.
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u/year_39 Oct 29 '24
Thanks for hearing me out. It's really not intuitive so I'm glad I was able to explain it in a way that makes sense.
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u/tumericschmumeric Oct 26 '24
Almost like it fits perfectly within the American system of âlaw enforcementâ what with our undercover cars, qualified immunity, and cops ability to lie, as a you could say even a âbest practice.â
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Oct 27 '24
[removed] â view removed comment
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u/1rmavep Oct 27 '24
"Evolv is too sensitive," is what they'd claim about a dog, a metal detector, "a divining rod," but everyone, the public, knows that this is a different kind of technology; everyone knows the term for this, everyone knows what these technologies spit out:
Hallucinations
An Identical Error rate from an, "Too Sensitive," Electric Metal Detector, is going to get a pass where, "an AI Hallucinated and told The Police that I have a Gun," will not, moreover, a school, an airport, the subway, "someone has, already, taken a gun where this is, already, a serious trespass and felonious crime," is, in fact, a distinction without a measurable difference; what makes them different from an airport, or, a school, is that they'd love to take advantage of the false positives- whereas there is no different, in public safety.
So, don't accuse them, "make them say, I like that it lies to me," if those are the last words on earth, the last plausible utterances in defense of Evolv and friends it irks me that anyone of you has problems with money, while, the Evolv team has a paycheck and this on their resume
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u/Paradox68 Oct 25 '24
The tech is getting better and it will keep people safe in the end.
I donât like being a guinea pig anymore than the next guy but at least theyâre doing something. After watching âWoman of The Hourâ last night Iâm glad tech is there to track people.
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u/colin_tap Oct 25 '24
I sure do trust the NYPD to protect the common people, and I especially trust my government which is definitely NOT a capitalist oligarchy
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u/year_39 Oct 26 '24
Honest question, have you ever interacted with the NYPD in person?
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u/Paradox68 Oct 26 '24
Nope. I donât break the law, either, so even if I did Iâm sure it would be a normal exchange given the fact I know how to behave myself around a police officer as to not give off any unnecessary threatening gestures or be hostile and/or argumentative.
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u/year_39 Oct 26 '24
The city looks like it's under military occupation. I tried to get help for a family member who had been kidnapped and was told it's a civil issue, not criminal, and they couldn't do anything about it. Another time, I called for a wellness check after a friend asked for help because her abusive husband hit her and one of their 8 month old twins; the cops called me back and told me that they had spoken to the abusive husband, told him my name, and had been reassured by him that everything was fine.
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u/Paradox68 Oct 26 '24
All the more reason to build tech not necessarily like this, but this would be a predecessor to a more functional version that would further improve safety and reliability for the general public.
Trusting other humans to do the policing will never fully work because humans have the capacity to be dumb, to err, and to be corrupt.
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