r/behindthebastards • u/grapp • Jun 28 '24
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff Margret mentioned the anti-war left in Britain in World War 2 during the Orwell episodes. Unless you're advocating for surrender how do you be anti-war if you live somewhere someone else wants to invade?
I mean I get being anti-foreign wars, but if someone attacking where you live they're not giving you much choice.
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u/jamey1138 Jun 28 '24
There was a period, beginning with the invasion of Czechia in 1938 and through the invasion of Norway in 1940, when many British (including PM Neville Chamberlain) believed that they could avoid becoming entangled in the war. Even after Britain entered the war in 1940, there were prominent British fascists who opposed their war effort, and believed that Britain would be better off as an ally of the Nazis.
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u/Available-Dirtman Jun 28 '24
Also, and we can't avoid this discussion, communists who were committed to the USSR, accepted the deal with the devil and felt a war with Germany would mean a war with the USSR. Not great.
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u/jamey1138 Jun 28 '24
Excellent point. It’s easy to lose the perspective of the late 1930s, when it was clear that the Nazis and the Soviets were close allies.
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u/alien_believer_42 Jun 28 '24
If Hitler had never betrayed the USSR, IMO that's the biggest "what-if" in history. Some argue that the Nazis were bound to betray them by their nature, and that's not a bad point.
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u/Upstairs_Screen_2404 Knife Missle Technician Jun 29 '24
Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal vibes
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u/yungchigz Jun 29 '24
It was so inevitable that I think everyone involved knew it would happen one way or the other, it wasn’t a ‘true’ alliance. Both sides knew they were on a collision course and the pact was just their way of best positioning themselves for what was to come
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u/jamey1138 Jun 28 '24
Yeah, on paper they were ideologically diametrically opposed, but in practice they were both just autocracies with no real ideology other than power. I've always believed it was more a question of which autocrat would betray the other first.
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u/vseprviper Jun 29 '24
I feel compelled to argue with basically everyone about their simplistic characterization of the USSR lol. Tankies are too generous in forgiving the crimes of the cheka, gulaging the kulaks, worsening famine, etc. But so many of the revolutionaries were completely sincere and fought so hard to overthrow the feudal order that preceded them, and it feels disrespectful to their sacrifice when we characterize the entirety of the project as authoritarian/totalitarian/autocratic. I like to think I would have fought with Kronstadt, even though that would have meant my death. Much about Stalin really sucked, and I don’t think he did a good job defending the revolution. But just because he led the union for a time does not mean he represented the entire project.
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u/jamey1138 Jun 29 '24
Yeah, the revolutionaries were pretty dope (though I agree with Robert’s analysis, they shouldn’t have murdered those children).
20 years later, which is when we’re talking about here, the Soviet project had collapsed into authoritarianism. Let it be a lesson for future revolutionary movements.
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u/Available-Dirtman Jun 28 '24
I wouldn't say close allies, at least not on the minds of their leaders, but the problem is communists in that period were dedicated ideologues. They couldn't see past their own bullshit, which reflected in the Spanish civil war, so when one day the fascists were the enemy, and then the next they were an ally against imperialism, the cognitive dissonance wasn't recognised.
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u/jamey1138 Jun 28 '24
From, let’s say Poland’s perspective, or the perspective of anyone who observed their division of Poland and didn’t have inside information on the tensions between them? Close allies.
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u/Available-Dirtman Jun 28 '24
Totally agree. Don't get me wrong. Both assholes. Fascists ideologically worse, but all authoritarianism are assholes.
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u/teensy_tigress Doctor Reverend Jun 29 '24
Yeah it boggles my mind that they existed. Due to the way generations worked out I spent time with my great grandma all the way into my late teens and she was a survivor of the london blitz. Its kind of weird to me that at that point a genuine leftist would be anti-war. She was in her 80s and 90s and the few things she would say about it were horrific and there were times she still had flashbacks. No wonder she bailed out to Canada after.
I hate war. But Ive never experienced losing everything Ive ever known from someone trying to destroy me and mine. She did.
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u/nova_rock Jun 29 '24
I mean we can look up the pamphlets and arguments made, before the invasion of Poland and a lot comes down to why be involved in fights between other people’s just stay out of it, with influences of other politics or the memories of ww1 hanging over.
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u/teensy_tigress Doctor Reverend Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Yes, what i am saying is that at a certain point its not just pamphlets about poland, its everything and everyone getting killed around you. Even if the leftists at the time did not have knowledge of the extent of the war crimes, I personally cannot understand taking an anti war stance when civillians are picking food out of trash and rubble. That is what great gma did. She was the furthest thing from an anarchist, but she stayed and she signed up to drive trucks through the worst of it so that she did something to help ensure there was a chance that the Nazis could be turned back. I get that. I cant judge her. I think there is a time and a place for resistance from a leftist oerspective and hell, nazis trying to take you over is it.
Edit for clarity: im not saying this is when i think leftists should be active, i think a lot of leftists all over europe did a lot of things earlier than that with more knowledge and used a variety of tactics, and thats great. Theres a long legacy of antifascist resistance that you can look into and many ways to be antifascist that dont involve being pro-state sponsored military.
Im just saying that i think at the bare minimum, when a literal nazi state is out to occupy and destroy you as a people group or nation, i do not understand how any reasonable leftist at any point can place blame on self defence like broooo nazis. In the fucking sky. On the ground. At sea. Like rats.
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u/nova_rock Jun 29 '24
Yeah, do not disagree, and from what I’ve studied on it that is what happened once the war moved in stages to the invasion of France, the discussions changed, and fully moved with the later invasion of the ussr.
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u/Badgerfest Jun 29 '24
We entered the war in 1939 after the invasion of Poland.
Anti-war sentiment was so strong amongst the British and the French that we stayed in defensive positions in France until Germany attacked in May 1940. The period from September 1939 to May 1940 became known as the Phony War because we were at war with Germany, but not really doing anything about it.
An invasion of Germany in 1939 whilst they were engaged in Poland would have caused the Germans a serious problem and could have saved 10s of millions of lives in the long run.
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Jun 28 '24
Lots of people in the so called peace movement in Europe even today believe Ukraine is in the wrong for defending themselves militarily.
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u/ComradeBehrund Jun 28 '24
Seeing so many "anti-war" people I trusted go from "Russia won't actually invade Ukraine" to "Iraq has WMDs" was so shattering to my worldview that I developed bipolar
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Jun 29 '24
Yeah like "they should have negotiated with Russia!"
Right, so tell me which parts of your country,which cities and how many people you'd be willing to sacrifice to appease Putin, knowing full well how Orcs treat occupied areas and that it will never be enough anyway.
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u/1nfam0us Jun 29 '24
Some wars need to be fought. Anyone who is being honest about their ideology must consider the points at which violence is acceptable. Politics is merely the distribution of resources and violence. Believing otherwise is to live in a fantasy world (as much as I would like that fantasy).
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u/carpcrucible Jun 29 '24
There are people right now arguing that getting involved in WW2 was bad. Granted they are very very sick puppies and there are probably not that many of them, but it's a thing and they do have a fanbase. Not linking the actual brainworm take but you can read about this nonsense here: https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/z5l8nl/substacks_michael_tracey_has_a_hot_take_about_the/
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u/1nfam0us Jun 29 '24
I'm not totally sure what point you are making in response to what I said or if you are just adding, but I will just say this:
Michael Tracy is an idiot and a dedicated contrarian. To him, reality is just an inconvenient collection of facts for him to make arguments with. I don't think he actually believes anything.
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u/_Foulbear_ Jun 28 '24
Same reasoning they had in WW1. The logic was that the left has no obligation to throw themselves into the fires of war when those wars are being waged by and for the interest of capitalists.
Also consider that several resistance groups could be classified as anti-war. They may oppose the interests of both sides of a conflict, but that doesn't mean they won't fight. The edelweiss Piraten would come into cities and beat the shit out of Nazis, and even blew up the Hitler youth HQ building in Köln. So when the allies occupied Germany they thought they would be welcomed by the edelweiss Piraten. But the EP hated the allies, too. In their eyes, the allies were just the new oppressors.
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u/gnostic-sicko Jun 29 '24
Yeah, welcome to my life.
I'm highly sceptical of western left since beggining of invasion of ukraine. For first few months I was constantly seeing takes from so-called leftists about how Russia is right and US should stop supporting Ukrainie, because they have nazis there. And they want "multipolar world" or something.
And look, I get that Ukraine has a nazi problem, and how worship of Bandera is wrong. I get that.
But Russia isn't really better, and they are an empire that wants to take back their colonial posession. They try to erase ukrainian identity as it is. And they are already doing this, they are actively committing genocide right now. And if they win, there's gonna be massive slaughter of people who tried to stop them.
And I am polish, so we are probably next.
It's hard to believe in international leftist solidarity if other leftists wouldn't really mind you being genocided just because they don't like US financing foreign wars.
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u/gnkkmmmmm Jun 29 '24
Russia has a Nazi problem, not Ukraine. Russia has a literal Nazi battalion and literally runs concentration camps for Ukrainians.
In Ukrainian elections, slightly Nazi movements get less than 1% of the vote.
Ukraine does not have a Nazi problem and saying otherwise makes you complicit in Russia's campaign of justifying genocide against Ukrainians.
As for Bandera - many countries have problematic national historic figures and none of these are a reason to call for genocide. The US founding fathers were slavers; Belgium continues to venerate Leopold II; mass murderer Bonaparte continues to look at public officials from portraits in every government cabinet in France.
I wonder why nobody complains about these national heroes but the focus is squarely on Bandera. Yeah, right - because that's Russia's genocidal dog whistle and idiots love to spread hate against the Ukrainian people by repeating it.
Every time someone says "Bandera bad", "Ukraine nazis", they become accomplices in a literal campaign of dehumanization and genocide.
That includes you, u/gnostic-sicko.
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u/gnostic-sicko Jun 29 '24
Yeah, Russia is nazi-aligned state. Ukraine isn't. Russia is committing genocide, Ukraine isn't. I don't know how can I be more clear that I agree with you dude.
Every time someone in my country brings up bandera I know they are probably some right wing weirdo.
Like, maybe I wasn't clear that I only bring it up because those are the reasons people justify genocide of ukrainians. I was talking about western "leftists", who constantly bring it up, to justify genocide. More like quoting them than anything else.
Sorry, maybe it got lost in translation, english is my second language. And also it is so hot here I can't think straight.
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u/Laughing_Man_Returns Jun 29 '24
our Left had slogans like "invest in peace, not weapons" in recent election. you know, talk with Putin instead of making him attack us.
some people are just... unwell.
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u/Dunkypete Jun 28 '24
If Britain agreed to withdraw from the war I'm sure Hitler would have (said) he'd agree to a ceasefire.
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 28 '24
There was a faction within the Scottish nationalist movement who saw a Nazi invasion of England as an opportunity to achieve their aims
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/may/09/highereducation.humanities
The government of newly independent Ireland sat out WWII on the same The Enemy of My Enemy Is My Friend basis
And then England had its Blackshirts (and a King who was besties with the Hitlers)
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u/Justnothernames Jun 28 '24
Ireland neutrality policy also greatly favored Britain as can be seen by the numerous RAF pilots who were returned to the UK whereas downed luftwaffe pilots were interned
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u/kitti-kin Jun 29 '24 edited Jun 29 '24
Ireland didn't have a standing army or military complex, only a national guard. They didn't have much to contribute to the war, and consistently helped the Allies with intelligence.
ETA: my grandfather was one of many who transferred from the Irish national guard to the British army to contribute to the war effort, so the climate within Ireland wasn't exclusively neutral.
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u/Milton__Obote Jun 28 '24
Same reason why a lot of Indian independence activists sided with Germany
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
The above comment is beyond inaccurate in regards to Ireland. Ireland's neutrality was motivated by self preservation not a want to see the allies fall. Anyone actually interested in history may read the Cranbourne report or the summary in the below Wikipedia article. As you can tell by the 14 points listed Ireland went as far as allowing a radar base to be constructed in the Republic for use by the allies as well as allowing lakes along the border to be used for training by the British and American troops stationed there, which clearly violated our own neutrality statements.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 29 '24
Ireland's neutrality was motivated by self preservation
That makes it okay, then
It's why the Swiss are so admired, today
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
Oh and comparing Irish to Swiss neutrality shows you didn't bother to read the report or the wiki :))
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
Swiss neutrality heavily favoured the axis as they allowed them to use their financial system to obscure stolen wealth.
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
You really just read the part of the text you want don't you? 🤣 Open your eyes and your mind
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u/dangelo7654398 Jun 30 '24
Didn't Ireland have an active fascist movement, and didn't they provide refuge to Nazi war criminals in postwar era?
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u/Justnothernames Jun 30 '24
Ah another one who didn't read, nearly every country in Europe had a fascist movement cope harder
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u/Justnothernames Jun 30 '24
Did you even read the report I mentioned or do you just enjoy talking out your ass?
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u/Justnothernames Jun 28 '24
Ireland had a neutrality policy, reach harder next time. You're mixing up the IRA and the government
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 28 '24
Okay, Ireland sat out WWII
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u/Justnothernames Jun 28 '24
Still nuts how confidently you spread misinformation without even editing the original comment.
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 29 '24
What part's misinformation?
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
The part I clearly pointed out. Work on your reading comprehension. Ireland was neutral as it's in our constitution, Ireland's army is a tiny peacekeeping force, you are happy to speak out your arse and ignore what I'm telling you. The motivations for Ireland's neutrality were not the enemy of my enemy is my friend as I have already pointed out Irish neutrality heavily favoured the allies. I don't know what else to tell you.
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 29 '24
One of the great moments in life is when you realise you don't need to defend the actions of some cunt just because they were elected leader of the country you happened to be born in, decades later
You and I both come from shitty countries, which have done shitty things, for which we are in no way responsible
Looking at Nazi Germany rampaging across Europe and concluding it was best to stay out of the way was a chickenshit thing for Dev to do
Especially since, as I pointed out, Ireland's position meant it would only have been a gesture of support, at most
Dev couldn't bring himself to say WE'RE AGAINST THOSE MURDERING PRICKS
You'd have no problem condemning any other leader who did the same
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
What horrible things has Ireland done? Most of our war crimes were committed against our own people during the civil war. Where are you from?
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 29 '24
Most of our war crimes were committed against our own people during the civil war
And your own folk, for decades after
The podcast we both enjoy did an episode about one aspect of your government's crimes against your grannies' and parents' generation
I'm from Scotland, the country which, for generations provided the knife that bloodied the butcher's apron
And which was such an enthusiastic participant in trans-Atlantic slavery that we named streets after the exploitation that built our cities
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
Whataboutism at its finest lad. Go edit that first comment like a good man
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
Those aren't war crimes they're human rights abuses, trust me when I say I know far more of this than you ever will. The podcast barely scratched the surface. So again man stop talking out your hole.
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II
I don't know what else to add just read before opening your gob.
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u/grapp Jun 28 '24
has the Irish government ever apologised for taking that stance? because I kind of feel like they maybe should
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u/BeefsteakBandit Jun 28 '24
No I don't think the Irish government is going to apologise for not allying with Britain less than 20 years after fighting a war against them for their independence from 800 years of being colonised. I'm incredibly glad the Nazis lost WW2 but expecting every small, (at the time) barely functioning nation to apologise for not joining the war is ridiculous.
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u/grapp Jun 28 '24 edited Jun 28 '24
No I don't think the Irish government is going to apologise for not allying with Britain less than 20 years after fighting a war against them for their independence from 800 years of being colonised.
I think it would depend what they knew about the extent of the holocaust. If they were fully aware I'm almost willing to say they should have agreed to British rule again if that was a condition of joining the war effort.
Like I don't think you get to put domestic policy over opposing Hitler in WW2 and be in the right.
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u/Fancy_Flight_1983 Jun 28 '24
Even British officials didn’t want Ireland to officially enter the war (plenty of Irish joined the British army and did so with the Irish government’s consent). If Ireland joined the war officially, it could have given the Germans another front from which to assault the UK.
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
Where are you from? I'm genuinely curious now because holy cow that's about as far from the truth. Idek how to fix this but Jesus Christ you're wrong. A country with a population under 4 million was not doing anything to turn the tide of war.
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u/Cannaewulnaewidnae Jun 28 '24
To be fair to Ireland, it wasn't really a functioning state in the thirties
The population of fighting-age males had been devastated by WWI, the campaign for independence, and then the civil war
And they were poor as fuck. Any human resources or capital they had was going into trying to start a country from scratch, overnight
The Irish would have been moral support, at best. To be fair, the Irish government did co-operate with the US over stuff like shipping and flight paths
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u/Justnothernames Jun 28 '24
So it wasn't an enemy of my enemy thing like you stated? Stick to what you know bud
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u/Justnothernames Jun 29 '24
While publicly neutral Ireland shared intelligence that lead to the timing of the Normandy invasion as well as allowing military aircraft from the allies to fly over Mayo and Donegal
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u/gnkkmmmmm Jun 29 '24
Useful idiots - like the "pacifists" who advocate for Ukrainian surrender nowadays. F them.
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u/TCCogidubnus Jun 28 '24
There's not much evidence Germany had much desire to invade the UK, as I understand it.
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u/Baron_Boroda Jun 28 '24
Look up Operation Sea Lion. It was an invasion of Britain that got cancelled because Germany decided to invade the USSR instead.
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u/Boss-Front Jun 28 '24
The other reasons were that the Luftwaffe was losing to the RAF, having never achieved air supremacy. The German navy was no match for the Royal Navy and the Germans knew it. Amphibious invasions are extremely dependent on a navy getting the invasion force onto the beach head and being able to supply the invasion fleet. On top of that, the Germans didn't the necessary amount of landing craft ready by the time Sea Lion was supposed to launch. Many in Nazi high command had no faith the Sea Lion would work. It took a lot of trial, error and build up before the Allies were ready to invade Normandy. If the 1974 Sandhurst wargame) is anything to go by, the best the Germans could have done with what they had at the time was invade Kent before the Royal Navy cut them off from France.
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u/grapp Jun 28 '24
I mean they occupied the Channel Islands, so they did invade part of the UK
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u/Boss-Front Jun 29 '24
Yes. But there’s a big difference between invading a cluster of islands 14 miles (23 km) off coast of France - in a bay between Normandy and Brittany and the English Channel, which was turned into a massive minefield. The U-boats were ordered to avoid the English Channel whenever possible because it was so mined.
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Jun 28 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Justnothernames Jun 28 '24
Robert never took this line, reach harder
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u/mstarrbrannigan gas station sober Jun 28 '24
And Margaret was literally laughing about tankies in the Orwell episodes too. Dude has no idea what he’s talking about.
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u/JabroniusHunk Jun 29 '24
Gotta say it was a bold play making shit up about a podcast he doesn't listen to, on the dedicated subreddit, to the people who would know he's lying.
And I'm not one of the sub's hardcore stans and even appreciate seeing critiques about topics Evans gets wrong. Dude was just blatantly lying lol.
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u/behindthebastards-ModTeam Jun 29 '24
This comment has been removed to due unnecessary rudeness about one of the guests. You're welcome to criticise, but please keep it polite and constructive - we don't want to discourage anyone from going on the show.
Also, Margaret isn’t a tankie. She’s an anarchist. At least try to have a foundation of truth when you’re criticizing someone.
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u/m1j2p3 Jun 28 '24
The anti-war left were isolationist and were advocating for Britain to stay out of it.