r/The10thDentist • u/auntymedusa • 1d ago
Society/Culture It should be standard practice to either double barrel or merge surnames when a couple gets married
Unless there's a strong personal preference otherwise, of course. It is common sense, and using 'it's tradition' as a reason for taking a males last name as standard is absolutely mental to me. Both parties are entering into what should be an equal agreement, and so their last names should reflect that. Why should one party (normally the woman) have to alter her identity at no sacrifice from the second party?
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u/joelene1892 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’m a big fan of “the couple should do what the couple wants”. That seems ideal to me.
Edit: Novel_ad blocked me for some indescribable reason (was I rude? I don’t think I was rude) and now I cannot comment on the comment thread at all, but based on OP’s last comment about being fine just moving away from the current standard, I agree with that, just don’t agree with the title of the thread.
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u/auntymedusa 23h ago
Noted your edit, I think we are on the same page! Agree I could have maybe worded the title a bit better :)
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u/Novel_Ad7276 1d ago
So you agree with the post then
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u/joelene1892 1d ago
Not really, no. I think those should all be perfectly acceptable answers, but I don’t think there should be a standard practice at all, or if there is one, I don’t think think that it matters what it is as long as couples are free to do what they want without judgement. I don’t think flipping the standard the other way really helps at all.
Just talk to your partner and decide together.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I would be happy with the standard practice just moving away from the man keeping his surname. This will open us up to the whole 'the couple can do what they want' as you say :)
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u/Novel_Ad7276 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Just talk to your partner and decide together”
Ohhh okay. So you agree with the post then? Lmfao
Edit: to the person who replied and blocked me, nice projection
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u/Ancient-Meeting-4074 1d ago
Please learn to read the whole post before commenting. Don't block people you disagree with either, it will prevent you from looking foolish next time.
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u/TheLandOfConfusion 1d ago
But OP is arguing that something specific should be normalized when we’re already doing what we want. So we should continue doing what we want, but also something new should be normalized? How does that work
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u/IthacanPenny 1d ago
I think OP’s point is that what we “want” is heavily influenced by the (American) cultural expectation that the man’s name will be the family name. OP thinks that overwhelming expectation should shift.
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u/TheLandOfConfusion 1d ago
Okay so we should force people to do it OP’s way for a while so it becomes the norm for subsequent generations and they’ll eventually do it willingly?
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u/IthacanPenny 1d ago
No, no one is saying that. It’s more like ‘I wish things were this way’ not ‘make it this way’. I think change happens by a handful of people being vocal about it, more people adopting the attitude, and then influential people who make the switch themselves talking about it. No one is being forced. How do you even get there?
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u/TurtleWitch_ 1d ago
I would agree, but like another commenter said, this would make names into a bunch of gibberish after a couple of generations.
Besides, in some cultures, carrying on a family name is very important. I agree that the gender thing is stupid, but I think it’s fairly reasonable to want your last name to last
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I take your point, but I am saying it's unfair to say one person's last name (and so carrying on of family name) is more important than the other's right to do exactly the same thing. Maybe it's something a couple can negotiate on, my point is just that by default it shouldn't always be expected to be the man who gets to keep his name
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u/SalsaSamba 1d ago
I think we are moving away from the expectations to take the husbands name. It just takes time to phase out
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u/Maeflikz 23h ago
So don't change your surname if you don't want to have it changed? If that is a dealbreaker for you then so be it.
Is the worry here that you wouldn't stand up for yourself if you were put in this situation?
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u/auntymedusa 23h ago
I think that's a fine and fair solution (and one that would move us away from the default of taking the man's name, which is my issue), although you would have to have a discussion if/when you had children about what surname they would get!
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u/FathomArtifice 1d ago
that could get pretty crazy in only a few generations
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u/ChiliGoblin 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not at all, you never end up with more than 2 surname. It only get crazy in the mind of people who aren't used to that practice that already exist in some places.
(What's with the downvotes? You can't imagine anything but your americans ways?)
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u/Dark43Hunter 1d ago
So Mr. Smith-Johnson and Ms. Williams-Brown won't become Mr. and Mrs. Smith-Johnson-Williams-Brown?
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I think in this case it might be preferable to merge surnames instead of double barrel. As long as an element of both sets of surnames remains, I would consider that equal. So maybe Mr & Mrs Williamson? Or Wilson?
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u/Dark43Hunter 1d ago
I guess this one is more sustainable even if it makes your official name sound like a fandom's name for a ship in a tv show
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u/skippy_nk 1d ago
now that's mental
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
The names Williamson or Wilson?
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u/SunnyGods 1d ago
If you merge Smith and Jones what do you get? Smones? Jith? It doesn't work with 90% of surnames.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
To be fair I think that's largely because the name is different and new. Clutterbuck was a surname in the 1800s and it sounds weird as fuck now but would have been fine back then.
Can always double barrel also if the couple doesn't like the merged alternatives!
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u/ConfidentSnow3516 16h ago
Merging would have made ancestry difficult to track a hundred years ago. Now it makes perfect sense.
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u/ChiliGoblin 20h ago
No, you merge whatever one of your name you prefer with one of your partner's
So they can become Smith-Williams, Brown-Johnson, (...) whatever sound best. So both give up a part of your name and both get to keep a part of it.
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u/Less_Party 1d ago
No because that would mean discarding one of your names when it comes time to add a new one, which kind of makes the whole thing pointless.
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u/Ancient-Meeting-4074 1d ago
You at being downvoted because you clearly didn't think this through. It has nothing to do with American standards. What OP is describing isn't practiced anywhere. There isn't a single place that randomly chooses what their last name should be. You being unable to understand the difference between what OP is describing and how say Hispanic citizens countries handle their last names is your own fault. That's why you are being downvoted.
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u/ChiliGoblin 21h ago edited 20h ago
Not hispanic, we do choose whatever name we keep from our parents to make the new double-barrel name. Both give up and both keep.
The principle of keeping a family name alive and going as some kind of pride is american.
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u/Ancient-Meeting-4074 20h ago edited 20h ago
I'm sorry but you are incorrect. Just because you randomly choose a last name doesn't mean the rest of the world does. Again, Hispanic countries do have multiple last names but they are not chosen at random, with its still favoring one of the paternal last names. While keeping track certainly would be a mess, I'm not saying one is wrong or right. Pretending it's weird that Americans have a system to choose their last name is incorrect as it's the norm in many other places as well.
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u/ChiliGoblin 20h ago
I'm not saying the american way is weird, not saying that's what the whole world does like us either. The only thing I'm saying is that it already exist and it does not turn into the strawman clusterfuck people always bring up 🤷♀️
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u/dickslosh 1d ago
not upvoting bc i agree but i actually do think this may be 10th dentist to a lot of people
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
Exactly why I'm posting- I expressed this sentiment at Christmas to family and was surprised/disappointed by the reaction it got
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u/Less_Party 1d ago
We'd have exponentially expanding last names. Four generations down the line you're already looking at 16 last names per person lol.
That said yeah I kind of wish I had my mom's last name because it's dying out.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
Well you can merge parts of names- as long as there's an element of each surname included then I would feel that was fair.
Having said that, I think it should be taken on a case by case basis based on people's personal preference. For example, given that your mom's last name is dying out I would like to think in an ideal world you would therefore get preference for having your last name as the family name if that is what you wanted!
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u/Working-Tomato8395 1d ago
My wife explained her reasoning as "I didn't pick my last name, that came at birth from another man, I'd rather carry around the name of the man I chose to be bound to for life".
Honestly, the couple should do whatever they want and getting spun up about it is weird.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I see her logic and as long as she was happy to do so, I think that's a totally fair and equal outcome!! My opinion is just that it shouldn't be expected for her to do so if she didn't want to
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u/Working-Tomato8395 1d ago
I told her to write down whatever she wanted on the name change form or just skip it altogether, my wife's last name barely comes up because I don't have to ask other people to find her for me, and even the few times I have had to ask someone where she was or if she was available, I only ever needed her first name or to ask for the tall woman who looks like Zooey Deschanel with more hair.
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u/auntymedusa 23h ago
Saying 'pick whatever you want' has v secure masculine energy tbh
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u/Working-Tomato8395 23h ago
I asked my FIL for his blessing to marry my wife, and he said, "what the fuck are you asking me for? She says she's in love with you, that's that. I love you and care about you, man, if you're the one, you're the one. No need to ask me." Same energy.
Probably why he and I always got along when my wife's previous boyfriends didn't.
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u/auntymedusa 23h ago
Kudos to you for asking for blessing rather than permission, and also a lovely answer from him. Seems like you have married into a great family, I hope you are all very happy!!
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u/Working-Tomato8395 23h ago
I have great in-laws, my wife's in-laws are.....okay. Reasonably happy all around, very happy with my wife and in-laws.
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u/Im_Nil 1d ago
As someone who works in a job that processes data including people's name, dob, addresses etc. this is a no from me for the simple fact that people with double barrelled last names mess up my forms 🤣
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
Might make you a good case for getting a personal assistant ;) OR at least your work improving your forms to make life easier for you
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u/wictbit04 1d ago
I don't care what other people do, but for me, it was important my wife took my name. It worked out because it was something she wanted to do (she disliked her maiden name). Even more importantly to me, though, is that my kids took my name. But again, I couldn't care less what other people do.
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u/FlyingHighLow 1d ago
The couple does what it wants.
That being said no one has ever doubted who the mother of children are. Using the patrilineal last name is a way to attach them to their male ancestors. Maybe I’m rationalising patriarchy but this is how I’ve always felt.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
What do you mean when you say 'no one has ever doubted who the mother of children are' in the context of your post? And an element of the father's last name would be included in the last name (plus the father's last name would be changed to match the child's anyway so it would all line up).
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u/FlyingHighLow 22h ago
When a kid is born everyone knows who the mom is. Without DNA tests only the mom knows who the dad is. I find it poetic that kids get attached to their dad through the name
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u/Kerguidou 1d ago
In Quebec, it's actually against the law to take your spouse's name... Kids can be given any combination of the names.
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u/MaxTheGinger 1d ago
Disagree. I think we should destigmatize taking the man's last name. But let people do what they want. To take either name, hypenate, or blend names.
Double barrel names frequently get shortened. To First or Second. Smith-Rivera becomes Smith or Rivera at work.
And like others have said, if we keep double barreling, Smith-Rivera-Johnson-Park is looking for love.
Merging is fine when people want to. But a lot of names suck for that. Like Smith and Park. Smark, Pith, Parth, Smik?
And again, in a few generations, Smiparthon and Josmika are getting married.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I think we are agreeing with the same point in that people should be allowed to do what they want. I think defaulting to merging or double barrelling a name would be a step towards destigmatizing taking the man's name, as you say
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u/Ellik8101 1d ago
I know of a lot of people choosing to keep their maiden names as a preference, as well as a couple other girls who don't like their own surnames and would prefer their boyfriends. So I think the modern world is slowly moving away from tradition, for sure.
I must say, I'm not a fan of combining the surnames in any way. If Mr One and Mrs Two got married, their son would be Me OneTwo. If he marries the daughter of Mr Three and Mrs Four, their kids would be Mr and Mrs OneTwoThreeFour and it would really get out of hand after that. Not to mention not all words "merge" nicely so I don't think that would work nicely either.
Surnames were created out of convenience once there were too many "Johns" in the one town. Definitely still a necessity nowadays but there are too many people on the planet for surnames to be a solution.
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u/hanforeversolo_ 1d ago
Agree somewhat. I think it should be normalized to take the wife’s last name if a couple chooses, not auto default to the husband’s.
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u/raymab68 1d ago
Strong disagree. My 10th dentist opinion is married couples should keep their surnames, and then pick which surname to give their children.
This is common in many Asian cultures and is what my wife and I did.
Besides avoiding long names and being forced to change your name, a big benefit of this is you don't need to go through the long and annoying process of legally changing your name and then providing your name change documents every single time you do anything.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I think that's a totally fine outcome! It seems completely equal to me so I would be happy with it (as long as you were both in agreement of what surname to give your children of course).
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u/doegrey 1d ago
While I agree in theory that we need to move away from this default “she gives up her name”, you’re then going to get resistance cause he likes his surname and wants to keep it then she just gives in to avoid arguments.
So while it’s ”her choice”, it isn’t really.
(Source- every serious relationship I’ve been in/ and every serious relationship that’s close to me)
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
Totally agree, I think that's why we should move away from it being the unspoken default option so couples can have an equal and open conversation about it without any pressure in either direction. I discussed it early with my partner and he was completely on board with it ☺️
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u/doegrey 1d ago
I’m not sure that would change in our lifetimes. I think part of the underlying problem is that both grow up with the idea that she will be the one to change her name, therefore the idea of him being the one to do so somehow means he’s a lesser man and will get judged by his friends and peers as “giving up his name” for her.
We say we treat women and men equally however this is one area where it’s blatantly obvious that we don’t and we’ve still got a long way to go.
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
Completely agree! Just because you technically can do it, doesn't mean that people actually feel completely free to do so. There are a lot of unnecessary societal pressures and expectations that need to be addressed in order to achieve this
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u/theoscarsclub 1d ago
Names are gonna get pretty goofy pretty quickly this way... The convention exists as much as anything to simplify what is a tricky practical matter when joining families. Your solution whilst trying to make everyone happy really leaves no one happy and you get these ridiculous names or names that have no connection to your family line or the history of the English language.
Taking the male's name is a hangover from a bygone patriarchal era. But it doesn't have to be inherently patriarchal to just run with that tradition if it simplifies the merging conundrum. Negotiating over who's name to take leads to petty arguments between spouses that wastes everyone's energy. Taking on new family names every generation creates additional complexity and confusion when all we really want is a simple way to refer to people and their families...
But for the sake of your ideology you will forego practicality.
The status quo is fine to run with as is taking the female's name or double barrelling or coming up with something entirely new if they must. Hell why don't we just do family QR codes branded on to everyone's foreheads, I really don't care come to think of it. And as for gay couples, well fuck it let them sort that puzzle out...
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
I think if you're in a healthy relationship, having an adult discussion about family names shouldn't lead to petty arguments. I also don't think it's a big ask to request equality as opposed to complete sacrifice for one party.
I think this may have created additional complexity in the middle ages when everything was tracked on paper but now we have electronics that update and DNA based tracking.
Progress often requires effort. If we didn't change traditional systems just because it was a bit difficult to set up initially then we would never get anywhere
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u/Tamelmp 1d ago
Nah so dumb and unfair on the kid
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u/auntymedusa 1d ago
To have a surname representative of both parents? Doesn't have to be double -barrelled, could be merged to keep short
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