r/The10thDentist • u/YEETAWAYLOL • Feb 04 '24
Meta - Standard Voting The “Inept knowledge” rule should be brought back
I’m going to post the QualityVote bot’s (may it rest in peace) text here verbatim:
Downvote THIS COMMENT if you suspect the post pertains to any of the below:
• Fake/impossible opinion
• NSFW beyond reason
• Unfit for the community
• Based upon inept knowledge of the subject
• Repost from the last 30 days
If you downvote this comment please do not vote on the post.
The QualityVote bot originally had opinions based upon inept knowledge be removable, and I think that rule contributed to the (perceived?) higher quality of the subreddit when it was still active.
This rule was removed from the rules tab of the subreddit, and I think it should be reinstated, as it would help increase the quality of posts, and cut down on spam from those who have no clue what they are talking about.
It also doesn’t really affect opinions, which are subjective, as one can have an unpopular opinion based on real facts.
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u/TheNebulaWolf Feb 04 '24
I agree. So many people post opinions that are based on incomplete or incorrect information.
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u/favela4life Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 05 '24
If you post “God allowing evil is a good thing” with the implication of “free will beats utopia,” I would deem these appropriate opinions that two believers can disagree on, the latter of which even two non-believers can disagree on. Although I don’t expect any theologians on Reddit, this opinion is informed enough.
When you attack one of the premises however, regardless of their factuality, you are no longer addressing the problem. You are just reframing it in a way that you can disregard it, which applies to many bad posts in this sub. It’s good to question premises, but it’s just less perceived as an opinion at that point. In this problem of evil example, it’s a bad idea to ask an atheist to defend the church’s claim, since they can just say “God doesn’t exist so there is no problem.”
Threads where you express your doubt for something, like “I believe the earth is flat,” are better reworded as questions and asked elsewhere. Where exactly? I don’t know.
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u/Weird_BisexualPerson Feb 04 '24
i saw one about people over 30 who havent dated being put on a watchlist, and they insisted aromantic people find out theyre aromantic from dating… no, no they dont
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
What are you actually agreeing with though? The quality bot doesn’t exist anymore, and it originally said to NOT downvote the post, downvote the comment
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u/cheezkid26 Feb 04 '24
100%. There are so many posts on here where the OP is literally just wrong about something since they have a lack of understanding of the subject. I'm so tired of it.
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
And the OP will always be wrong or misinformed according to a ton of people. And those people will continue to break the sub rules and downvote the post despite the text that was copy and pasted saying explicitly to not do that
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u/cheezkid26 Feb 05 '24
The issue is that people saying you're misinformed since they disagree with you is different than many of the posts on here where the OP is basing their opinion on factually, provably incorrect information, or a lack of understanding of how the topioc works. Having an opinion based on incorrect or lacking knowledge is different than having a purely subjective opinion which heavily differs from the norm.
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u/FlounderingGuy Feb 05 '24
To be fair that's where the majority of 10th dentists takes come from. That or pure contrarianism
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u/CoruscareGames Feb 04 '24
I'm not very familiar with this subreddit's culture, but how open do people here tend to be, to being corrected?
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u/callcon Feb 04 '24
usually if they are posting here it means they think they can’t be correct because it’s “just my opinion, that’s what this sub is for” so the fact their opinion is based on a complete lack of knowledge of the subject is impossible to convey to them.
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u/Nuclear_rabbit Feb 04 '24
They're not. But this sub used to be shitty opinions like "I enjoy the feeling of wet socks," or the one that got me to r/all, "Corporate Memphis is my favorite art style." Now it's shitty opinions like "Here's what we should do instead of banking" (proceeds to describe a credit union without knowing what a credit union is).
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u/roganwriter Feb 04 '24
Or, OP gives their hot take then when they’re defending themselves in the comments you realize their true opinion is that kids shouldn’t be parented and that maybe we don’t need bosses either.
There’ve been some absolutely wild justifications for some of these opinions that are based on non-factual or heavily biased premises.
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u/remainsofthegrapes Feb 04 '24
Or really boring naysaying like “I think Dark Side Of The Moon is overrated”
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u/Sapphire-Hannibal Feb 04 '24
Gonna upvote this just so more people see it, but I agree
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u/YEETAWAYLOL Feb 04 '24
Blue flairs mean you use standard voting, so upvote if you agree
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u/CategoryKiwi Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 04 '24
Fun fact, the written rules of reddit on voting say you're supposed to upvote anything that contributes to the subreddit, ie any quality post that belongs there. That means in this type of subreddit, by default, quality meta posts should be upvoted and opinions we disagree with should be upvoted.
We only have to have this subreddit's "special" rule, and then a flair that negates the special rule, because people universally ignore the proper way to vote and improperly treat it as like/dislike buttons.
Edit: added screenshots of the rules. Source.
Edit 2: Imgur is broken, so I took screenshots of the screenshots, to replace the URLs with new ones. Here's a screenshot of me taking screenshots of my screenshots.
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u/GONKworshipper Feb 04 '24
Those are just three broken links
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u/CategoryKiwi Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 04 '24
I'm genuinely confused. The imgur links work for me on both PC and mobile, and old vs new reddit.
Do the screenshots work if I give them to you without markdown?
https://i.imgur.com/3vQ4GDi.png
https://i.imgur.com/3Nsbtuk.png
The last link goes to a reddit wiki page that says it's outdated and points to the updated location. I didn't link the new location directly because it's not actually a reddit.com URL and I think linking a reddit.com URL is more credible.
And just for redundancy, here's a screenshot of my own comment, freshly taken, with the images expanded and the source box open.
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u/getting_the_succ Feb 04 '24 edited Feb 04 '24
I can expand all the images and see them perfectly but opening in new tabs gives 404.
Edit: seems to be an Imgur issue, this has been a persistent issue for months and for some reason it still hasn't been fixed.
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u/YbarMaster27 Feb 05 '24
People universally ignore the proper way to vote and improperly treat it as like/dislike buttons.
It's crazy to me that people still say things like this in 2024 lol. Yes, Reddit's "rules" on voting say we're supposed to vote based on the quality of the contribution. Those are also just some words, completely unenforceable, written by some guys, about how to use a button on a website. To treat it as some sort of authority is wild
Not that I necessarily disagree with anything in your comment on the face of it, the facts are correct, but just the usage of the words "proper" and "improper". This whole "erm ackshually you're not supposed to downvote things you dislike" thing was already old hat by the time I made this account 7 years ago lol. The emergent behaviour of millions of users has so utterly come to dominate the prescribed norm that it's bizarre to even cling to the latter on paper, imo
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u/CategoryKiwi Feb 05 '24 edited Feb 05 '24
It's crazy to me that people still say things like this in 2024
I mean, it's true (you yourself acknowledge that) and it's still worth mentioning because a lot of people like myself believe the site would be better off if said emergent behaviour didn't divulge from the intended use.
We can accept a thing is the way it is while still acknowledging everything I said in the previous comment. It's not that spicy.
Those are also just some words, completely unenforceable, written by some guys, about how to use a button on a website. To treat it as some sort of authority is wild
So are the rules of the very sub we're talking in. They can't enforce you to vote in the way we do here. But people are in this sub because they believe those rules make it better. This sub is a prime example of how things can be improved if we don't just dismiss unenforceable honour-system rules on the voting button.
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u/Deathaster Feb 04 '24
Would help if the mods were at all active. So many troll posts stay up even if I report them, so either they don't even react to reports, or they just don't care.
I mean, I'd also love a rule that forces people to actually respond to comments, because many people post an inflammatory opinion and then just dip, in many cases because they're trolling. Like, why even post anything at all here then?
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
Can’t they just recruit more mods? Do all mods have a superiority complex and don’t want to delegate the power to others looking to help?
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u/InquisitiveNerd Feb 04 '24
True, then we could avoid post like "Legal Duels" cause the guy couldn't figure out they are a horribly exploitable even in his suggested dynamic.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford Feb 05 '24
But that thread was peak comedy. Seriously, why is anyone expecting this sub to be a place for anything deeper than pointing and laughing?
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u/InquisitiveNerd Feb 05 '24
It's kind of place for the odd man out and discussing related topics to their claim. r/unpopularopinion can be that shock value cash grab, but here you read about a guy who like peanut butter chicken sandwiches then find a small discussion below about similar dishes that are actually amazing for that palette. There could be a guy claiming arch support for your feet is just a horrible concept, but you find out a sub group of rock climbers explaining their views agreeing, so you end up with a wider understanding.
Claim of not liking X, hey try Z or W as it may be a X reaction, or maybe they were doing X wrong like smoking the cigar in one puff or washing your cast iron.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford Feb 05 '24
If the sub was reduced to only productive discussions there would be no sub.
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u/Shacky_Rustleford Feb 04 '24
I dunno, I kinda enjoy that this sub is unpopularopinion, but instead of bigots it's just full of idiots
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
It’s still betting than r/unpopularopinion. However; it really does get to me when when every post has 0-10 karma because this community is also guilty of breaking the sub rules consistently.
Without the quality bot, we really need active mods, more mods, and for people to actually report posts they find unfitting as opposed to downvoting. Breaking rule 1 is not the answer
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u/rekcilthis1 Feb 04 '24
I'm not sure I 100% agree, mostly because I think we need a stricter definition of inept knowledge.
In the case of nearly anything except for the purely subjective (music, movies, food, etc.) you can always argue that a person is objectively wrong pretty much no matter what. A person could advocate for nudism, you can post figures about how common skin cancer is; a person could advocate for dressing extremely modestly, you can post figures about how repression causes societal problems.
I think as long as the core premise of what they're saying isn't just flatly incorrect (such as "vaccines cause autism", or "drinking piss is actually good for you", or "yellow is blue", etc.) then it should be allowed; even if it involves inept knowledge. Like that guy who keeps posting about how much he hates literature and poetry; he clearly doesn't get it, and thus has inept knowledge, but I don't think he should be banned.
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Feb 04 '24
I think it's pretty easy to draw the line. If they support their opinion with untrue facts, it's inept knowledge.
So for you nudism example "I think nudism is good because it's comfortable and I like seeing the ladies boobies" is fine. "I think nudism is good because skin cancer is a liberal hoax" would be inept knowledge.
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u/rekcilthis1 Feb 04 '24
I'm not saying that it's difficult to draw the line, I'm saying that I disagree with the idea that if it is at all supported by inept knowledge then it should be banned. It isn't important to me how easy it is to draw the line there, because I don't think it should be there.
But in your comment, you've unknowingly showed the exact issue I'm concerned about. Someone with the legitimately and firmly held belief that skin cancer isn't a concern can't post their opinion, while someone very tongue-in-cheek having a fake opinion that ultimately boils down to "show me your tits" being allowed.
If you ban any and all inept knowledge, then you're only left with posts about pop culture and shitposts where someone pretends to believe something as a joke.
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u/HunterHenryk Feb 04 '24
But he isn't saying you can't post the opinion that skin cancer isn't a big deal, he said you can't say that skin cancer isn't real as an opinion. Which frankly, shouldn't be allowed here as it is a belief backed by complete inept knowledge of the subject (the same way you even said flat earth, anti Vax etc shouldn't be allowed)
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u/rekcilthis1 Feb 05 '24
If their example is meant to be in line with my definition of inept knowledge, then their disagreement is a non-sequitur. If their example isn't meant to be in line with my definition of inept knowledge, then they need the nuance explained to them that there is a point between "objectively and obviously wrong" and "completely subjective and fundamentally unprovable".
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
That’s not what they said. They said you can’t post the “nudism is good” post because their conclusion was made using a false premise about whether nudism and skin cancer are correlated. I don’t think this is a great example, but I agree with them that it’s a bad idea to let everyone play arbiter and deny each others information. It won’t end. Everyone will just keep saying “inept knowledge” to every piece of reasoning to every debatable opinion
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
Very well said. People are taking the “inept knowledge” thing way to far and just downvoting every post they don’t agree with. Tons of posts here sit between 0-10 karma because of the rule breakers
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u/haahahahaaha Feb 04 '24
Hm I think this is a great idea but, from what I've seen, the name derives of how dentists sometimes say "9/10 dentists agree". Does this not mean that the tenth dentist could have an opinion that contradicts facts? Of course we don't have to follow this to better the subreddit, but I'm just thinking of the origins.
I think something else could be that mods read through posts before they appear in public? There's not a lot of posts a day tbh
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
What do you mean by “contradicts facts”? If I said that I think people should completely leave out vegetables from their diet because they are expensive and rot quickly would that be okay because I am ignoring the facts that vegetables are objectively good to include in your diet?
That’s the type of troll inept knowledge posts people what removed from the sub
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u/haahahahaaha Feb 04 '24
I guess not but I did say that we don't have to pay attention to the origins to better the subreddit.
For your example, I think that it's not a great idea like at all but if the person could explain what a healthy diet without vegetables would be like I think it would be interesting. But that's just me personally and I understand that it wouldn't benefit the community ^
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
I think only posts what have objective falsehoods in them should be removed. If someone doesn’t have all of the information on a topic they might still hold an unpopular opinion until they consume that knowledge. That still makes their original opinion unpopular and thus fitting
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u/haahahahaaha Feb 04 '24
Well I assume there are many people on reddit who aren't properly educated on a lot of topics. Perhaps we should have some kind of pop up or something asking members to research a topic before posting about it? Idk
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u/Susgatuan Feb 04 '24
But this introduced a philosophical problem.
I agree with this rule, I want to show support... but to keep to the theme of the subreddit I have to down vote this.
Sorry OP, too agreeable, you know the rules.
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u/Nevesnotrab Feb 04 '24
It is a meta post, so standard voting.
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u/Susgatuan Feb 04 '24
You have freed my shackles
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
I agree but the bot logic doesn’t exist anymore so what is happening is that everyone is just breaking the rules of the sub and downvoting the actual post. The text you copy and pasted explicitly says to NOT downvote the post.
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u/YEETAWAYLOL Feb 04 '24
That doesn’t mean that the rule shouldn’t be brought back. If it was, it’s something that can be reported for, so they wouldn’t vote, and would instead report to get it removed.
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
Do you think people read the rules to begin with? Do you think this sub has mods that enforce rules?
The speed limit on the highway is 65 but everyone will drive 75 because they can
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u/YEETAWAYLOL Feb 04 '24
The sub has a moderator.
People don’t follow the rules because the currently enforced rules do not work. Just as people speed on a unenforced zone, they will downvote a stupid post because it’s beneficial (it keeps the post out of others’ feeds) and it isn’t going to harm them.
If the inept knowledge rule was added, people wouldn’t downvote to get the stupid post off others’ feeds, they would just report it.
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u/xfactorx99 Feb 04 '24
You are lying to yourself that people won’t continue to downvote all the posts. Maybe you can get some additional people to report but you won’t stop the downvotes.
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u/YEETAWAYLOL Feb 05 '24
And if they do downvote, the post is removed for breaking the rules anyways, so no harm done!
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