It is time for sober reflection. The Ukrainian people deserve leadership focused on practical, achievable objectives, not on grandstanding gestures. While courage and defiance are admirable, they must be tempered with strategic wisdom. The path to victory lies not in symbolic acts of defiance, but in the methodical, relentless pursuit of territorial liberation.
Said the whole time and will say again: this was done purely as a propaganda push to undermine Zelensky without his input because he doesn’t control the army. They are in martial law so the “opposition” right now is the army and the only party that is the most organised and influential within the army is Azov. So the next guy is going to be Azov or a hard core Banderite collaborator. If Zelensky is lucky he will flee and retire in Florida. If not he’s gonna be assassinated.
I don't know man. There's been some chatter that this hasn't gone down well at all with the US. I don't know what to believe myself yet but some say that this was the UK's pet project done without the say-so of the US and they're not best pleased at all.
Well none of their 8 years of attacks on their own citizens, killing thousands, in the Donbas were in "retaliation" of anything Russia did, it was before the invasion. They were open about their plans for ethnic cleansing of the region. Their ultranationalist Nazism has to be rooted in hate of something, in this case the ethnic minorities were Russian, amongst others.
Is that true? I heard all that was made up by the Kremlin to legitimize their land grab. Indeed, in the course of the war they never mentioned it, just waffle about Nazis was all I heard, and how Ukraine belongs within Russia’s control due to geography and the fact that they have some of the richest agricultural land in Europe and Russia wants it so that can Holodomor Part 2.
Is that true? I heard all that was made up by the Kremlin to legitimize their land grab.
Of course. It's 2024 now though, and you're a grown adult who's living through a modern holocaust facilitated by our government and media. There isn't any excuse to pretend to believe what the media is telling you about America's warmongering and atrocities.
Indeed, in the course of the war they never mentioned it, just waffle about Nazis was all I heard
Is this all "waffle"?
Years of the Western (BBC) Media Admitting to Extremism Among Azov Military Units:
These are all western sources. This was real reporting. I think the question you have to answer is were they lying then? Or are they lying now?
, and how Ukraine belongs within Russia’s control due to geography and the fact that they have some of the richest agricultural land in Europe
Not only did Russia not invade for almost a decade, ignoring the ethnic cleansing and threats. Even after the invasion, all of the terms of negotiation did not demand any Ukrainian land (beside Crimea). You've been sold a pup here mate.
so that can Holodomor Part 2.
Oh man. Is there anything you haven't fallen for? Do you think there are hot women in your area who want to have sex with you right now? Every sentence you've written is a far right conspiracy theory.
I don’t think I’ve been sold a pup mate. Russia are a bunch of cunts and always have been. Ukraine in Europe is better for Ukraine and better for Europe. There’s neo nazi’s all over the place, prevalent in the US, UK, even our own shores and even Germany. Your accusations of ethnic cleansing are spurious.
And now the racism rears its head. Why are all you pro-Ukraine people like this?
Ukraine in Europe is better for Ukraine and better for Europe.
It's better for Europe to be saddled with America's war costs for generations? How do you figure?
There’s neo nazi’s all over the place, prevalent in the US, UK, even our own shores and even Germany.
Even Germany, ha! Seriously though, how come there isn't a mountain of articles and documentaries about these everywhere Nazis like there is for the Ukraine?
You just proven that you don't operate on a rational or honest basis and I shouldn't bother talking to you at all, but it's kind of funny to see you out yourself as a far right racist on your 7 year old account.
It’s not Racism it’s history, politics and economics. Russians are typically white, like me, but institutionally Russia has been broken for a long long time. It’s basically a load of shit land with lots of natural resource so they can’t feed themselves but they can arm themselves. Boils down to that mainly.
It’s not Racism it’s history, politics and economics.
Sound like you could write a book about your struggle with this kind of thinking.
Russians are typically white, like me
So, are you doing the "racism is about skin colour" thing? Man, a seven year account puts you at least in your twenties. How can you be this far behind the class?
I'm so confused. I honestly believe both sides are absolutely rotten to the core, and there are definitely levels of naziism and neo-naziism on both sides. This isn't a generic "ohhhh but both sides". It's actually fucking true
But how can you use the BBC as a source for some material which agrees with your argument and then totally disregard it as state sponsored western propaganda when it conflates with your argument?
At the end of the day, both sides are fully engaged in a propaganda war and the levels of what information the public is actually party to totally differs to what is absolute fact. We are after all, living in 1984
I honestly believe both sides are absolutely rotten to the core, and there are definitely levels of naziism and neo-naziism on both sides. This isn't a generic "ohhhh but both sides". It's actually fucking true
It isn't mate. It's not true. There's nothing remotely comparable about Ukraine being a state that names streets after Nazis and runs child Nazi indoctrination camps and the country that lost 25 million people defeating the Nazis. You've never seen a Russian solider wearing Nazi stuff, the NYT once admitted that they have to tell Ukrainian soldiers to take off their Nazi stuff before photographing them.
But how can you use the BBC as a source for some material which agrees with your argument and then totally disregard it as state sponsored western propaganda when it conflates with your argument?
The very reason why I used the BBC here was to show how flexible they are about reality. If I'd used Russia Today it would have been laughed at. They completed did a 180 after the invasion, it was very clear for those of us who'd heard of Ukraine before it all went down.
The reason why I linked the BBC was already stated: "I think the question you have to answer is were they lying then? Or are they lying now?"
At the end of the day, both sides are fully engaged in a propaganda war and the levels of what information the public is actually party to totally differs to what is absolute fact. We are after all, living in 1984
This is just both sidesing. What Russian propaganda are you exposed to? Russian media is banned. You're not allowed to hear it. Can you give me an example of this Russian propaganda?
"It isn't mate. It's not true. There's nothing remotely comparable about Ukraine being a state that names streets after Nazis and runs child Nazi indoctrination camps and the country that lost 25 million people defeating the Nazis."
Okbuddypal. Tell that to the country that Literally invaded another country, bombed it's cities to rubble, its soldiers are literally executing opposing soldiers (literal video evidence), it's soldiers are raping and murdering children (verified confessions from captured POWs as well as disgusting evidence found), it's own soldiers kill each other if you try and surrender or retreat (video evidence), it's soldiers are currently putting dead enemies heads on spikes, it's soldiers are blindly firing unguided weaponry into populated cities.
But I probably wasted 5 minutes of my time, because you won't believe me (or you already know and are just don't care) and will likely respond with "western propaganda" "fake news" "fake/staged videos and evidence"
I was telling it to you. Now you're going on a whataboutery tirade instead of responding. Why is that? A feature of the indoctrination you've been inculcated with is this raging whenever someone questions it. It happens because there's a lot of facing up to reality you have to do. You have to accept that the world around you is unimaginably false. It takes courage.
You have to ask yourself why you haven't even made an attempt to engage with me and instead just had a tantrum.
There's nothing remotely comparable about Ukraine being a state that names streets after Nazis and runs child Nazi indoctrination camps and the country that lost 25 million people defeating the Nazis."
Does Ukraine do this and did Russia lose millions of people fighting Nazi's?
Truthful commentary and accurate descriptions of reality are not propaganda.
Please engage with the substance of the argument and refrain from attacking others or dismissing peoples points as "Russian propaganda" when you're met with an inconvenient truth.
I often use sources that liberals believe to be unbiased or that would normally conform to their worldview as they have less ammo to accuse you of using "Russian talking points" or whatever.
It's worth noting however that the BBC had no issue reporting on the Nazi problem in Ukraine right up until February 2022, now they won't acknowledge even their own reporting.
It's propaganda by omission. Perfectly aligned with the goals and values of the security state.
The only real way to stay informed if to follow and listen to genuine investigative journalists. State and billionaire or corporate media will ensure you remain pig ignorant.
So for the uninformed, what, where, and who are the best investigative journalists/ news outlets that don't have their own agenda and rely on totally unbiased reporting?
Show me a list of articles that aren’t from 10 years ago, or sprinkled in irrelevant articles to pad your list for argument purposes (3/4 of yours) and we can have a discussion.
Who is continually bombarding Ukrainian cities. Absolutely levelled some. There’s mass evidence of war crimes and the Russians have a history of being just a little bit on the “rapey” side.
Russia have been subverting western media for years. Much of the reporting you’ve linked to has been discredited and what’s more, the BBC has not been credible for years …
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u/ShaneGabriel87 Aug 21 '24
Battle of the bulge.