I watched live coverage from Tel Aviv. It was very clear that these missiles got through by sheer numbers. Dozens of interceptions were caught on one feed. Israel probably prioritized intercepting missiles with the most concerning trajectories.
We do. However we have convinced half the population that poor people don't deserve it. Single Payer would cost less than our current system but fuck the poor.
Haven't you thought about the ruling class, who are banking on idiots without critical thinking skills supporting them and the rest being enslaved to job health insurance, so they sit still and don't kick up a fuss?
Good news, you guys spend more per capita in public money on healthcare than pretty much every other country on earth, including all those western democracies with their communist "free" healthcare
This money already comes from the allocated military budget. It's meant for military spending regardless of use. Stopping military aid to Israel doesn't mean that money is suddenly freed up for nonmilitary spending.
Not directly, but if we didn't feel any obligation to funding Israel's defense we wouldnt have to dump that much more money into our defense budget. That would in theory free it up for better uses.
That said even if we weren't funding Israel our political environment ensures that money will almost certainly go to nothing the citizens would benefit from
It's a shame I'm being downvoted because there is a lot of nuance that goes into our national budget that people don't generally understand or care about.
Anyway, I completely understand the sentiment, but I think it's an important distinction that people should be aware of. If you want more nonmilitary spending, you have to advocate for a general decrease in the military budget. Stopping funding to Israel just means the military gets the money back to do other things with.
If we didn't provide support to Ukraine, the outcome would be disastrous for the rest of the region, and probably the world. If we stopped providing support to Israel, a guy goes to jail, and they have to learn diplomacy.
We can agree to disagree but if the current administration had not promised NATO membership to Ukraine, Russia probably wouldn't have invaded. If we allow US weapons to strike at the heart of Russia, we are essentially in a proxy war with Russia, the 2nd most powerful nuclear state on the planet. Is WW3 and global thermonuclear war that wipes out 2/3 of Earth's population worth it? I don't think so. Also consider that we have been lied to by our government in almost every recent engagement... let's not forget the so-called 'WMD's' in Iraq that got thousands of American's killed. This idea that Putin is going to invade NATO and risk nuclear annihilation is comical! But, he will defend Mother Russia if attacked!
To address your points, I have two questions. Is Ukraine a sovereign nation? Are they being invaded by Russia?
Also, just to point out a conflicting issue in your argument. Which is it? Is Russia going to risk nuclear annihilation, or are they not going to risk it? You say they will because we're allowing them to choose their own security arrangements. But, yet, you say Putin risking it on an invasion of a NATO country is comical. So, which is it?
The argument is that Russia wants to reconstitute the old Soviet Union which would include NATO countries like Poland. Attacking a NATO country ensures a war between NATO and Russia. Ukraine is not in NATO. We have no obligation to fight for it - in fact, we could have bought a home for every homeless person in the U.S. and given everyone free college for the money we've sent to Ukraine. My main issue of this topic is what do we, the U.S., want to risk, for this cause? It's no different than a street fight - we will risk everything, including death, to protect our family/friends, but we will apply a risk/reward calculation to determine if we will fight for someone outside of our family/friend circle. It's your absolute right to believe that the 'facts' our Government is giving you are actual 'facts'. It's also my absolute right to believe that our Government's history of past lies drives my reluctance to believe them this time. I'm not some random rube on the Internet. I've worked in the U.S. Senate and supported the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and Senate Armed Services Committee. We are all being played, left and right, so that money can be shoveled to Defense contractors. Is that what you want your kids and grandkids to fight and die for?
We can agree to disagree but if the current administration had not promised NATO membership to Ukraine, Russia probably wouldn't have invaded.
That is not accurate; the Russian state media prematurely put out a victory article two days into the invasion which made very obvious that concerns over NATO were secondary to irredentism, and that the main problem with NATO is that it prevents Russian irredentism.
Russia is not going to wage a nuclear war over the borders returning to where they were in 2014 - it is a ridiculous proposition. And as for considering itself in a proxy war with the USA - they already declare that they are at war with you - you just don't take them seriously because their conventional forces are no match for America's and you know they won't use nuclear weapons because they aren't suicidal.
Alaska probably wouldnât be contained considering the cost of bringing it out there and the lack of important military targets. It would likely be on a smaller scale protecting important government and infrastructure targets, as opposed to a country wide âdomeâ
An iron dome system doesnât strictly have to cover the entire country lmao. Israel is much smaller than the entirety of the US. What matters is the targeting tech used in the dome that is being âtestedâ in Israel
Fun fact: if we had the same military policies as Israel, everyone would have free college. Aka the GI Bill. Serve your country = free college. But you want free college WITHOUT the mandatory service that you conveniently left out.
Oh. And you left out the fact that the ultra religious people don't have to serve either. It's almost as if reddit comments aren't all inclusive of every detail.
Thier country is also considerably smaller and easier to make this kind of iron dome system work in the first place. Their heathcare and college also isnt free. It is being paid for via taxes
Oh did I say "equally capable missile defense system"? I thought I was talking specifically about the iron dome system, healthcare and free college. I was very careful to word it that way.
If you think the most discriminate and targeted strike in history against an army that's been firing rockets at you non stop for a year is escalating, then you just think nothing Israel does is ever justified.
Please stop. You can't arbitrarily draw a line a year back. Israel created Hamas by cultivating conditions in Gaza for decades. Yeah yeah Hamas is evil and all that - I don't disagree. But Israel brought it upon themselves, and they continue to.
And it also boosts the US economy and military prowess.
Everyone on here likes to post about the US tax payer money. Those same people donât like to talk about 1) the technology in creating these systems Israel shares with the US in conjunction with US companies.
Itâs also a defense system - if you think was Israel has shown so far is over the top, imagine what it would be if they didnât have this system, and the thousands of rockets hezballah has been launching since October 8, before Israel even responded in Gaza, were all impacting.
Further- this money is given in grants. Grants whose funds MUST be used purchasing US military equipment and services.
Itâs literally like Costco giving their shoppers Costco only coupons.
You're explaining this to a bunch of troglodytes who think their 20 minutes of tiktok is worth more than years of education and experience by generals, economists, foreign policy experts, etc etc.
Not to say American is perfect, or our handling of the Middle East. But the 'solutions' people purpose here are just laughably bad and uniformed.
They should pay for the missles they use. They can afford it and the main reason is that Israel has more influence than they should in the us government, so we guve them what they want.
Why can't they pay for the weapons we make and share intel since we are allies? Why do they also require us to fork over billions of dollars to them?
It's not like Ukraine where they are a clear underdog against our adversary.
Theyâre not the underdog because they have these specific systems.
You can ask the questions you asked the other way around- why should Israel give away their technology for âfreeâ and not charge for it? You can also ask the same questions about the aid to places like Egypt too
Creating stipulations like these is what forms a successful partnership. Itâs a stimulus to spark more spending. Check out what Israel does use their own money for domestically. Itâs not like that doesnât exist either
My main point though was you can take issue with the aid. I might disagree with it but I could understand the why. What that doesnât change is that this aid. And foreign aid in general, is not the reason we ignore domestic issues like healthcare and education. We do that out of corporate greed
US aid is less than 15% of Israeli military spending so.... they do? The other 85+%?
We give them aid because they are the only reliable, stable, democratic ally in the region. We have a vested interest in their survival, despite how messy things are right now it is not unreasonable to think things in the Middle East would be 50x worse without Israel, and that Americans would be worse off because of said instability.
If Costco gave you a $10 coupon or shit even a free item, people are going to spend a lot more in addition to it and provide Costco with critical help that is invaluable in terms of $.
In 2022 us exports to Israel were as follows:
Iof $14.2 billion in U.S. exports to Israel, the top commodity sectors were Stone, Glass, Metals, Pearls (28.0% of the total exports to the country), Machinery and Mechanical Appliances (27.1% of such total), and Chemicals, Plastics, Rubber, Leather Goods (12.7% of such total).
The point also wasnât that it doesnât cost us $. It of course does lol. Just pointing out the benefits and that itâs simply
Not as simple as âwe just give them money. Nothing else to see here â
Yeah, the air defense missiles are like a free appetizer at a Michelin starred restaurant charging $300 per plate, given what they're paying companies like Lockheed to acquire the F-35.
There is a fundamental difference between understanding something and defending it. I feel like Reddit in general either doesn't get that or dismisses the idea as unfun because Redditors like to argue.
The military technology that USA needs can be developed in USA, most of the technology that USA developed jointly with Israel is only useful in an Israeli context and it was just more disguised subsidies. How many Iron Domes USA bought? (Against the advice of the US army) 2, what happened to them? Since the army didn't want them nor needed them they were "loaned" to Israel.
So USA spent several billion dollars in a system that is only useful to Israel.
Yeah I'm not happy with the genocide in Gaza but these are missiles hitting residential areas, I'm happy they are being shot down. Bombing Israeli families is as bad as bombing Palestinian families
Israel's aggression to it's neighbors and the Palestinians under its authority is why this is happening.
It's not a good thing when anyone bombs residential areas but Israel's been bombing hospitals, killing humanitarian aid workers, palestinian children, and journalists for decades. The brutality of the IDF is well documented. IDF soldiers still have "pancake day" celebrating the time an American activist was crushed by a bulldozer trying to prevent the demolition of a palestinian family's house.
You are acting as if America is generously giving the money to Israel. They are donating the money by funding their defense companies which manufacture arms and missiles which they give to Israel, hence enriching shady companies/people
... while also employing Americans who pay income tax, and preventing large numbers of civilian casualties that would likely trigger a far more costly ground war that America would be dragged into.
It's not fine. Quds rockets are made out of literal garbage, packed with sugar-fertilizer. An interceptor is a sophisticated expensive piece of defense machinery. It's completely unsustainable.
With all the money they spent on the Iron Dome, they could have bought Gaza and paid everyone to move.
He refuses to do a ceasefire as requested by America and UN, but then expects America to help when they fight back. Why are Americans footing the bill. Ceasefire or goodluck.
And money! Don't forget how many billions of American tax dollars flow into Israel, after all, they have to turn around and use it to bribe American politicians!
Agreed. Reeks of âpicking of schoolyard fight because your big bro will handle itâ
Let them handle their own shit, I have a feeling their stance will soften considerably.
Just keep in mind this is mostly a ballistic missile attack - Iron Dome is designed to counter rockets. The iron dome might intercept one or two ballistic missiles on re-entry, but it's going to be Israel's "David's sling" and "arrow" systems that would largely be countering this.
This won't have been Iron Dome. ID is for the cheap pipe rocket shit they throw over from Gaza. Slow, predictable flight paths, 15km range. This will be Sling or the Arrow defence system, probably the latter as it's the only ground based defence that's got half a chance of keeping up with a ballistic missile.
I suspect the interceptions that have happened have been coordinated from the air (either tracked by aircraft radar and relayed to launchers or actively engaged by aircraft), probably over Jordan.
No, Iron Dome has just reached the public imagination more and become a catch all term more because it's much more obvious when it's doing things (the fireworks displays you get at night).
But ID and arrow have two very different, distinct roles and use entirely different systems to operate. ID is the name for a distinct system dealing with short ranged threats, Aegis is actually much closer to what Arrow is - pure anti ballistic missile defence.
I don't want to be "that" guy but Iron Dome has little relevance here. Iron Dome is a system designed to shoot down slow little short range rockets and stuff like that. It's mostly used to shoot down portable rockets fired from near the border. What we saw today was a barrage of ballistic missiles. Iron Dome isn't capable or designed to deal with ballistic missiles like these ones. Israel has a handful of other system, David's Sling and one other I can't remember the name of, that are used for missile defense.
Long range ballistic missile interception is a whole new ball game compared to the kind of stuff iron dome can intercept. The math stops working very quickly if you want to reliably shoot down long range missiles at the scale Iran is capable of.
Yeah, they already have a system for long-range ballistic missiles, the Arrow system. Israel employ a multi-layered system for short, medium and long-range missiles.
Iron Dome is not intended for long-range ballistic missiles, they're solely for short range.
He's incorrect in that it can't intercept them. But the success rate of intercept for missiles that aren't flying on a purely ballistic route is notably lower with Tamir missiles(the backbone of what we call Iron Dome), whether that be cruise missiles or those with control surfaces to adjust end stage trajectory. The MIM-104F (PATRIOT) missile system is much more successful in those instances, but it costs literally a hundred times more per missile. Israel also has Patriot missiles, but they're not the majority of their defense system.
Yes it works on mortar because their trajectories are solely dependent on gravity. Any guided missile will not be able to be intercepted.
People don't understand that those rocket attacks from Hamas are all made of garbage and barely at the level of a middle school science project. They are not guided, they are not aimed, they do not maneuver. Those are possible to intercept. Anything with a chip in it isn't going to get caught though.
Yep, itâs a known fact that the iron dome prioritized populated areas. If a calculated trajectory puts it in a random field, the iron dome ignores it.
If itâs a nuke theyâre fucked either way. No one is going to launch a nuke without the whole country getting obliterated by NATO firing theirs. Pretty sure they can tell when a nuke is fired anyways
The US knew exactly when this was happening and both Israel and the US would have the intelligence to know if was nukes, yet. But NATO would not get involved most likely as none of the countries nearby are NATO members.
If air defenses are overwhelmed like this, it wouldn't matter either way. Some missiles WILL get through and there's no telling which ones may or may not have nukes.
The best approach is still prioritizing protecting populated areas to minimize the damage if there are no nukes.
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u/krt941 Oct 01 '24 edited Oct 01 '24
I watched live coverage from Tel Aviv. It was very clear that these missiles got through by sheer numbers. Dozens of interceptions were caught on one feed. Israel probably prioritized intercepting missiles with the most concerning trajectories.