How does the left win if we embrace positons that poll 25/75?

5

u/Magiclad Marxist 22h ago

By making arguments that shift the polling.

Next question.

5

u/Bee_Keeper_Ninja 22h ago

The left isn’t prioritizing social issues, that is a right wing narrative.

14

u/BaBa_Con_Dios 1d ago

Let me know when NBA superstars start taking estrogen just to play in the WNBA

-7

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 1d ago

Let me know when NBA superstars start taking estrogen just to play in the WNBA

Is this not the logical conclusion to what many are asking for?

If you want to defend a controversial trans position, make the case for trans surgeries being covered by insurance. 1000x more meaningful for trans people & it can be defended.

Trans women in women's sports can never be defended.

7

u/BaBa_Con_Dios 1d ago

Who’s asking for NBA players to transition and play in the WNBA?

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u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 1d ago

Who’s asking for NBA players to transition and play in the WNBA?

This is pedantry.

Everyone who defends the position that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sports is endording the idea of NBA players being allowed to compete in the WNBA after 2 years of HRT.

I'll ask again, why not focus on a controversial trans positon that can actually be defended & helps trans people 1000x more? Trans surgeries are crucial for many to have the transition they desire.

8

u/BaBa_Con_Dios 1d ago

This is the dumbest thing to wake up and be angry about on Saturday morning. I’m out. Peace and good luck on your crusade.

0

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 1d ago

This is the dumbest thing to wake up and be angry about on Saturday morning. I’m out. Peace and good luck on your crusade.

Why aren't you interested in having a conversation with a trans person?

Do you not have an opinion on trans surgeries?

5

u/ActualTexan 23h ago edited 22h ago

Candace Owens: ‘black people are stupid lazy criminals and racism doesn’t exist’.

Everyone: STFU

You: ‘why aren’t you interested in having a conversation with a black person?’

I fucking can’t…

11

u/AlwaysSaysRepost 1d ago

I don’t listen to TYT. Literally, THE ONLY TIME I EVER HEAR ABOUT TRANS SPORTS, is the right or right leaning “liberals” complaining about how the left is obsessed with it. Why are you letting the right tell you what your positions and obsessions are? Any why is the right, Trump, Gaetz, Elon obsessed with lowering the age of consent?

-4

u/PossibleVariety7927 1d ago

Oh man you should have been on Reddit during trumps term. Online liberals and leftists were absolutely obsessed with all things trans. And they’d get baited constantly into defending unpopular positions by the right

Once Elon took over, those people no longer were being amplified so their trans obsession issues also couldn’t be amplified so it’s died down quite a bit. But man, prior to Elon you’d think all the left cared about were trans, non binary, and for some weird reason, dividing up people based on their race

Material issues were almost never talked about

3

u/Wootothe8thpower 23h ago

Then say off Reddit. Reddit is not the world. If you go on Reddit of course you going to hear dumb shit. But for the most part people aren't talking about this.

1

u/PossibleVariety7927 12h ago

We are a very online culture. Social media bleeds out heavily into our regular lives

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u/Wootothe8thpower 10h ago

I dint think. since most voting Americans not hanging on reddit

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u/AlwaysSaysRepost 23h ago

I was online then, that’s what I’m fucking talking about. It was always dumbfucks like you talking about how EVERYONE ELSE is obsessed with this. Just like how the right won’t fucking shut up about lowering the age of consent to like, 11, or something

8

u/Lerkero 1d ago

People want job security, higher wages, and cheaper cost of living.

Get them those things, and the other things may be able to follow later.

1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 1d ago

People want job security, higher wages, and cheaper cost of living.

Why can't we just focus on those things & drop the issues we will never win on that the right focuses on nonstop?

If you want a trans issue to demand strongly that may not poll great, stand up for trans medical care (like surgeries being covered by insurance).

This is 1000x more meaningful for trans epople & doesn't compromise women's sports. I could defend this issue.

We will never win on trans women in women's sports.

2

u/Wootothe8thpower 23h ago

Thing is we arent really pushing those far left stuff policies. When people say the left pushes that...they talking about twitter or Reddit.

Now the argument is yea well the people THINk they do. Well then its the left wing commentators is not to stick to right wing framing. Its the left job to steer the conversation. Because there always going to be someone saying something cringe on the internet that the right can point to. Just like it right wing people saying stuff cring and crazy...accept those people are the actual law makers. It shouldn't be that hard to point that out

It just the right has more power, more consistent at pushing that

Its a self fulfilling prophecy. Left wing commentators get scared people think there to far left. So they obssesses over fighting there left flank which make them seem bigger then they are. Which causes the same in fighting there complaining about

1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

Thing is we arent really pushing those far left stuff policies. When people say the left pushes that...they talking about twitter or Reddit.

Prominent liberals & progressives absolutely push these litmus tests.

2

u/Wootothe8thpower 22h ago

like who

Really the only promiment one I seen pushing it was Cenk and Anna with the birther person stuff. And people saying there making to big a deal focusing on it all the time.

1

u/ActualTexan 23h ago

‘Yeah man fuck civil rights man racism will always exist anyway bro’

You guys are incredible.

1

u/Lerkero 14h ago

A large component of the civil rights movement in the united states was ancored to the ability for all people to seek the same employment and housing opportunities.

In fact, a lot of lower class white americans supported civil rights when they thought it meant better opportunities for all to increase their social status.

There were still people on the fringes that wanted to segregate ethnicities into different classes, but a significant portion of ethnic integration was focused on class consciousness.

1

u/ActualTexan 14h ago

I don’t know what that has to do with my comment but yes that’s at least partially true.

1

u/Lerkero 14h ago

Because you're making it seem like the other comments were ignoring concerns about civil rights, and i wanted to clarify.

Addressing employment, income, and cost of living can easily include issues about how ethnic groups or identities are differently affected by those, but it's not a good idea to make those issues ONLY about identity.

1

u/ActualTexan 13h ago

Class reductionists do, yes.

Some issues are only (or at least primarily) about identity.

-1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

There is no equivicating the Civil Rights movement to trans women in women's sports.

Please stop doing this!

2

u/ActualTexan 23h ago

There is a direct equivalency in the logic of saying ‘let’s not fight the right on this social issue because it’s a losing issue politically’. You’re doing the exact same thing, you’re just special pleading because you’re a transphobe. But I also wouldn’t doubt you’d do the same when it comes to every other ‘social issue’.

Stop doing what? Telling you the truth?

0

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

There is a direct equivalency in the logic of saying ‘let’s not fight the right on this social issue because it’s a losing issue politically’.

Black people were segregated from society & you are equivicating that extreme injustice to Lia Thomas being told it would be unfair for her to swim with women.

Which is true, Lia Thomas should not be allowed to compete against women in swimming. It is deeply unfair that she competed against women in the NCAA.

You’re doing the exact same thing, you’re just special pleading because you’re a transphobe.

I've transitioned for almost 15 years now, and yet you have the nerve to call me a transphobe.

I dont want to comlete against women in sports, I want a normal life. I want trans people to get the medicine & surgeries they need to live authentic lives.

But I also wouldn’t doubt you’d do the same when it comes to every other ‘social issue’.

You are straw manning my positions.

7

u/ActualTexan 23h ago edited 23h ago

No I’m equating YOUR ARGUMENT about conceding social issues to the right because of the existence of bigotry. To pivot away from having to address how quickly your argument falls apart when applied to social issues not even you are bold enough to deny the importance of fighting for, you instead pretend like I’m only comparing the issues instead of the argument you’re making about social issues in general which is dishonest and cowardly but go off.

To address the issue: IT’S THE SAME CONCEPT. She’s being discriminated against, segregated, and excluded on the basis of her gender identity. The entire point of the civil rights movement was to prevent exactly that with respect to race. There’s no reason that shouldn’t apply to all identities (and that’s exactly why gender identity is a protected characteristic under Title VII of the freaking Civil Rights Act).

So what? Have you ever heard of Blaire White? Caitlyn Jenner? Candace Owens? Mark Robinson? Clarence Thomas? You can be a member of a marginalized group and be bigoted against the group you’re a member of. You being trans doesn’t make you not a transphobe.

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u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 22h ago

So what? Have you ever heard of Blaire White? Caitlyn Jenner?

I have noticed that any trans person who slightly deviates from the trans maximalist positions is often accused of being Blaire White.

This is what I meant when I wrote in a different comment today that I wanted progressives to talk to more trans people who are neither Bennie from TYT or Blaire White.

8

u/TheFalconKid Socialist 23h ago

This is bait.

1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

Why are you assuming I have bad faith?

6

u/TheFalconKid Socialist 23h ago

Leading an argument with a strawman is extremely bad faith.

-1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

What is the straw man?

Trans women in women's sports is a litmust test for many on the left.

Therefore, my argument is not a straw man.

4

u/TheFalconKid Socialist 23h ago

It's not about convincing leftists to care about trans people, it's about getting the general public to support a candidate who believes in universal healthcare, free public college tuition, a green new deal, and a higher taxes and regulations on the ultra wealthy.

You'll be hard pressed someone who supports the above and wants to throw trans people under the bus. Bernie Sanders never lead his arguments with trans sports, he always leads with his most popular positions, it's why he also doesn't lead with his position that all people in jail should still be allowed to vote, even though he never changed his view on that.

0

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

it's about getting the general public to support a candidate who believes in universal healthcare, free public college tuition, a green new deal, and a higher taxes and regulations on the ultra wealthy.

That conversation gets derailed by topics such as trans wowen in women's sports.

Trump won many votes with his trans ad. Those ads will only multiply with time.

Bernie Sanders never lead his arguments with trans sports, he always leads with his most popular positions, it's why he also doesn't lead with his position that all people in jail should still be allowed to vote, even though he never changed his view on that.

Bernie Sanders has never created a litmus test around trans women in women's sports like other folks have on the left.

4

u/TheFalconKid Socialist 23h ago

Bernie Sanders has never created a litmus test around trans women in women's sports like other folks have on the left

Like who? Cenk and Ana? A former/ future Republican, Union buster running fake campaigns for clout, and the rights favorite new TERF?

5

u/peanutbutternmtn Banned From Secular Talk 20h ago

This is a strawman and not even worth engaging with.

6

u/ActualTexan 23h ago edited 23h ago

You people in 2008: how can Democrats win if they support unpopular positions like gay marriage?

You people in 1992: how can Democrats win if they support unpopular positions like ending mass incarceration?

You people in 1960: how can Democrats win if they support unpopular positions like black civil rights?

You people in 1920: how can Progressives win if they support unpopular positions like women’s suffrage?

You people in 1860: how can Republicans win when they support unpopular positions like abolition?

The real answer is obvious: YOU HAVE TO FUCKING STAND FOR SOMETHING.

You don’t determine your positions based on what’s ‘popular’ now. You determine your positions based on your principles. You know? Actual beliefs? Wtf ever happened to those?

And then you make those positions popular by arguing for them vociferously in the public square and galvanizing grass roots support.

The reason people are taking the opposite position that progressives have taken throughout American history on ‘unpopular issues’ on trans issues is simply because they’re not pro-trans. That’s it.

But instead of just saying that they pussyfoot around talking about electoral strategy instead of their actual beliefs so they can avoid rightfully being called ignorant bigots on the issue.

Class reductionists work the same way: they’re overwhelmingly socially regressive cishet white dudes who, just like reactionaries, are ‘tired’ of taking about racism, misogyny, homophobia etc because those forms of bigotry and oppression don’t ostensibly affect them and instead want to talk only about classism because that form of oppression clearly does affect them.

I don’t know if it’s a lack of self-awareness, dishonesty, or cowardice causing this phenomenon but it needs to stop regardless.

0

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

You people in 2008: how can Democrats win if they support unpopular positions like gay marriage?

I already addressed this argument.

Gay marriage & core trans rights are easy to defend. There is no logical defense to trans women in women's sports (due to the physical advantages).

You people in 1960: how can Democrats win if they support unpopular positions like black civil rights?

There is no equivicating the Civil Rights movement to trans women in women's sports.

And then you make those positions popular by arguing for them vociferously in the public square and galvanizing grass roots support.

You will never convince most people that it is fair for an NBA player to take HRT for 2 years & join the WNBA.

The reason people are taking the opposite position that progressives have taken throughout American history on ‘unpopular issues’ on trans issues is simply because they’re not pro-trans. That’s it.

This is reductionist.

Plenty of people support core trans rights while disagreeing with trans women in women's sports.

4

u/ActualTexan 23h ago edited 19h ago

You’re lying. Republican constituents and elected officials right now STILL want to get rid of gay marriage and are 100% anti-trans (they literally don’t want them to exist, it’s not just about sports).

You’re ignorant on the science of trans women in sports (like most bigots). Trans people don’t vastly outperform cis people and a trans woman on HRT is not the physical equivalent of a cis male or so vastly physically different from cis women to have a tremendous physical advantage. You’ve bought into fear mongering just like the right.

Your position on the issue is equivalent: don’t fight for ‘unpopular’ social issues. Well black civil rights was for damn sure ‘unpopular’ at the time. There’s the equivalency no matter how much you try to special plead on this issue just because you’re a transphobe.

You in 1960: ‘you’ll never convince most people that black people integrating into white schools, neighborhoods, and workplaces is a good thing’. You’re literally making 1:1 the same argument. ‘You won’t convince people to agree with you on this social issue so let’s not try to fight for it’. Don’t try to run away from it, just own it.

Not being a victim of segregation and exclusion is a ‘core’ trans right. Who tf are you to say what ‘core’ rights for any group are? You pointing out what rights you do and don’t ‘agree’ with doesn’t define the bounds of what a group’s ‘core’ rights are.

5

u/jreashville 23h ago

You don’t have to prioritize an issue to not cave on it. The left should and often does prioritize universal, kitchen table issues. The right forces the conversation onto social issues because they can’t win on economics. It’s always been that way. It was always the right that kept everyone focused on abortion, gay marriage, and now trans athletes. The left should stand for marginalized people as we always have. That doesn’t mean we are the one bringing up issues that are unpopular for us. I think Tim Walz had a great approach in saying “mind your own damn business” is the best way for the left to communicate it’s social positions.

2

u/EngineBoiii 1d ago

It's called putting your best foot forward, you don't make your campaign slogan or main issue the issue that is unpopular, you fight on the issues that matter the most to people, I daresay that's what being a public servant is about at the end of the day.

2

u/americanblowfly General Left of Center 19h ago

Argue for what is correct, not for what is popular. Trans women have been proven to have zero competitive advantage over cis women in sports if they have been on HRT long enough. This is especially true if they start transitioning early, which the GOP also wants to block.

Don’t let narratives get in the way of reality. Trans people go through enough in life. Taking away their right to compete in sports is inhumane, especially given the scientific evidence we have on this.

2

u/WinnerSpecialist 15h ago

This comment shows why Trump won. Not because of anything OP said (it was all crazy talk). But because he ACTUALLY believes it. OP is just like all the other voters who made non existent trans issues front and center when in reality trans people are half of 1 percent of 340 Million people.

OP has an unhealthy obsession with non existent trans issues. I love how OP makes up fake scenarios and then pretends people are actually fighting for his imaginary argument. There are no NBA superstar partaking estrogen to play in the NBA. Also there is not a SINGLE elected Dem who has advocated for NBA superstars to take estrogen and play in the WNBA.

1

u/theclawl1ves 22h ago

Republicans do it all the time but with actual substantive issues, you have to keep the messaging on the important things that effect everyone. Throwing trans people under the bus to win makes the win pointless. Ceding ground to the right is how we get a democratic party in this state. The default is equality for everyone, really one of the most basic principles of the left. Giving up on our principles invalidates everything else we stand for if it looks like we never actually cared in the first place.

1

u/JonWood007 Social libertarian 16h ago

We dont. We can only win on those issues if those issues are electorally irrelevant.

2

u/beeemkcl Progressive 11h ago

What's in this comment is what I remember, my opinions, etc.

RESPONSE TO THE ORIGINAL POST:

Firstly, Ana Kasparian isn't even a Democrat anymore. She's an 'Independent'.

Secondly, both Cenk Uygur and Ana endorsed and advocated for a rightwing Republican to be Mayor of Los Angeles instead of having a progressive Democrat be Mayor of LA.

Thirdly, 'what have you done for me later' is a real and reasonable thing.

Bill Maher was supremely helpful to Democrats in 2010-2016. Should we support him forever because of that?

Ever since around 2022, the TYT Main Show has been a negative for the progressive movement.

Maher was helpful because he positively affected electoral politics and progressive advocacy and such.

TYT was helpful because they helped get progressive elected to Office.

Outside of actually effecting progressive change and progressive victories, a news company is just a news company. People like getting news and commentary. And there are simply better places for that than the TYT Main Show.

1

u/RaspberryPrimary8622 10h ago

Biological sex is only a proxy for the characteristics that actually matter to whether a contest is meaningful and fair. There is no reason for biological sex to be the basis on which athletes are grouped for competition purposes.

Why not set up a few divisions in each sport - first division, second, third, etc - based on the physical attributes that are relevant to that sport? These might be a combination of height, muscle mass, bone density, lung capacity, lactic acid metabolism, etc. Then athletes would compete against other athletes who are similar to them in the relevant physical characteristics. The competitions would be fair and nobody would be excluded from a category that they strongly identify with socially and psychologically.

2

u/Sauterneandbleu 10h ago

IMO and with respect, the point seems to have been missed here. Why center an issue that affects six tenths of a percent of the population when it can so easily be weaponized as a core issue? The left should be tackling wealth distribution among other big ticket things, not getting sucked off into the weeds by these high profile issues that affect such a small portion of the population

1

u/RaspberryPrimary8622 10h ago

Nobody is elevating this issue ahead of a Job Guarantee, a housing guarantee, an above the poverty line guarantee, free health care, free public transport, and free education from early childhood onwards. Only conservatives care about the issue because they see it as a way of naming a villain or a culprit. The problem with Democrats is that they don't campaign on progressive economic policies. Kamala Harris was a bland generic centrist who campaigned on minor policy tweaks that sank without a trace. In that kind of policy vacuum, identity politics or culture wars flourish. The onus is on Democrats to deprive their opponents of that opportunity by actually having a lot of compelling economic policy that voters will care about.

2

u/Sauterneandbleu 10h ago

I fully and totally agree. She'd have won the voted with Bernie on stage and in her corner instead of Liz Cheney. What I meant to speak to in your point was the weaponization of the centering of an issue that affects 0.6% of the population; much much fewer than that if you count athletes. The fact that it shouldn't even be an election issue.

0

u/JCPLee 23h ago

The problem is not trans women in female sports it’s about people believing that this is more important than healthcare, education, worker’s rights, female autonomy and voting based on that. People vote for what is important to them and for the moment it is keeping pets from being eaten by dirty brown immigrants and stopping sex change operations in middle school.

The problem with trans women in female sports is that no one on the left wants to address it because they don’t want to be perceived as transphobic whereas those on the right want to be perceived as transphobic because they know that society is largely transphobic. This gives transphobes a political advantage if they can convince everyone that this is a priority.

The left needs to understand that they can support trans rights without supporting trans women in female sports because, for some spheres of life, there is a fundamental difference between biology and gender. This is what they have failed to do.

1

u/north_canadian_ice Social Democrat 23h ago

The problem with trans women in female sports is that no one on the left wants to address it because they don’t want to be perceived as transphobic

💯

It's out of empathy for trans people, but is ultimately counterproductive.

The left needs to understand that they can support trans rights without supporting trans women in female sports because, for some spheres of life, there is a fundamental difference between biology and gender. This is what they have failed to do.

Well said.

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