AMA with Dr. Marc H. Ellis, Professor of Jewish History and Jewish Studies and the author of more than 30 books, LIVE at 11 AM EST 11/5

3

Hi Dr. Ellis!

I'm curious about what you think about those who view Israel as a colonial-settler state. Is this something you agree with? If so, what can be done about this?

7

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 06 '21

Palestinians have every right to label Israel as a colonial-settler state but as for others, including Jews, I would caution against this. I would also caution against conflating what Israel has become and what Israel was in the beginning. Of course, history is complex and certainly there are aspects of Israel that comport with this designation. But colonialism and decolonial efforts as a one-size-fits-all should be avoided. It compresses and distorts particular histories of peoples and nations. It denies the particularity of Jewish history.

I first broached this subject in my 1990 book, Beyond Innocence and Redemption: Confronting the Holocaust and Israeli Power. Thus I have been conversant with this notion of Israel as a colonial-settler state for more than thirty years. This is a long and complex story now entwined with the notion that Jews in America are or have become white. Again we should not conflate the history of American Jews when they arrived in America, for example, and their place in American society now.

The idea that, for example, Polish Jews in the 1930s, according to non-Jewish Europeans, were white, is misguided. And insofar as some Jews in Europe were accepted as equals with non-Jews in Europe in the 1930s and early 1940s, well the situation changed radically and decisively.

So Israel can be seen in diverse ways, yes, as a colonial-settler state but also, in its origins, as a haven for Jews and much in between. Rhetorical flourishes and “in” language and concepts don’t do much other than make simple what is essentially complex. Instead what I have tried to do is balance the complexity of the Jewish experience, including statehood, with a strong condemnation of Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people.

3

u/border_crossing Nov 05 '21

Thank you for your response, Dr. Ellis. I agree about the need to see these issues informed by history. It is just difficult to think about Jews now as people who used to be disempowered. Today we have empowered Jews oppressing others and empowered Jews in solidarity with those who are oppressed.

I'm interested about what you mean by Jewish particularity. Can you explain more what you mean by it?

5

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21 edited Nov 06 '21

Yes, you have touched on a variety of subjects that are controversial and important.

The first, about Jewish empowerment, we find empowered Jews on both sides of what I call the Empire Divide. For the first time in Jewish memory, if not all of Jewish history, the great majority of Jews are empowered. This includes Constantinian Jews, Progressive Jews and Jews of Conscience. I often wonder why there is little or no discussion of this important novum in Jewish history - including the fact that this overwhelming majority of Jews reside within two empire configurations, the United States and Israel. Thus, even our dissent is within the context of empire empowerment. Furthermore, I doubt very much that that Jews of Conscience will give up this empowerment. Should they?

Obviously this new context affects Jewish particularity, even as strands of Jewish history continue into the present. Over the last decades it has become clear to me that in this situation there is one overriding reason to be Jewish - to draw near, to embrace and to embody our indigenous and our great gift to the world, the Jewish prophetic.

What embodying the prophetic means in this situation should be explored. Obviously it means exile. But exile, too, is part of our indigenous. So that the prophetic and exile are, for Jews of Conscience, a homecoming.

What an ennobling and difficult gift to live with and up to! The challenge of challenges!

4

u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Hello Dr. Ellis! First, I would like to thank you for being here and engaging our forum.

It is an honor to have you here.

Context:

I was thinking about a quote (pg. 225) from Dr. Richard L. Rubenstein’s book, After Auschwitz: Radical Theology and Contemporary Judaism, which reads:

Morality and religion can no longer rest upon the conviction that divinely validated norms offer a measure against which what we do can be judged.

I interpreted this statement to be Dr. Rubenstein reconciling the trauma and devastation of the Holocaust with the notion of a just world.

Dr. Rubenstein goes on to ask, 'What is Judaism?' and answers that, 'it is the light'; the light that warms us and guides us.

I recall in some lecture series, you have explained your journey from the tutelage of Dr. Rubenstein to working with Dorothy Day - as choosing the path of solidarity with those on the outside of society, ie the poor.

Question:

Was this part of your journey a formative experience? If so, what effect did it have upon your theological outlook?

As I recall, your first book, written about these experiences was read by Bob Dylan as well? Thank you!

6

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

I studied with Dr. Rubenstein as his book After Auschwitz was reaching a wide theological audience. On a Zoom commemorating his recent passing I spoke about his influence on me. And it’s related to the words you quote from him. In a world where the traditional guardrails no longer apply, including our religious traditions, how do we act in the world and to what purpose? Rubenstein believed, perhaps correctly, that the the cycle of violence and atrocity is the essence of history. While I could not then, and cannot now, deny this view, I also could not accept it as defining for my life. I had to search out the possibility of life within that understanding. Thus I went to the Catholic Worker to experience a committed life among the poor. Some years later, returning to Rubenstein and the Holocaust, I asked what our response as Jews should be with regard to an empowered and increasingly militarized Israel and its oppression of Palestinians. In doing so I also returned to the prophetic, our Jewish indigenous, and began fashioning a Jewish theology of liberation.

And yes your recall about Dylan is correct. The diaries I wrote while at the Catholic Worker were published as a book in 1978. Dylan read my book and sent me an autographed photo and six of his early albums. Truly a highlight of my life!

3

u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Thank you Dr. Ellis for the response!

And yes your recall about Dylan is correct. The diaries I wrote while at the Catholic Worker were published as a book in 1978. Dylan read my book and sent me an autographed photo and six of his early albums.

That is awesome!

3

u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Hello again Dr. Ellis,

I thought I would ask a couple of more questions.

For our readers, what does it mean to pursue liberation theology or praxis within a Jewish context?
Could historical figures like Martin Buber or Judah Magnes be said to have pursued that path of conscience?

Thank you!

4

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

How to pursue liberation within the Jewish context? To do so we must draw near, embrace and embody the prophetic, our indigenous. Having understood this, historical context is important. “Jewish” exists within history and the ambivalence toward Jews is global. The pursuit of an interdependent empowerment with other communities is the best while realizing that Jewish has a particular history and, if I might, mission. Jewish represents the roots of the global prophetic. Universalizing Jewish our of existence, by Jews or others, is a dangerous temptation.

On Buber and Magnes, with their strengths and limitations - adding in Hannah Arendt - they are historical models we should pay attention to. But, as well, things have gone so far off-track, that their witness is fading in relevance. Remembering, too, that their critical and prophetic thought crystallized as the state of Israel was coming into existence. Today Israel’s occupation of the whole of Palestine is permanent. What to do within that permanent occupation of Palestine is the question facing Jews of Conscience.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

Thank you Dr. Ellis.

3

u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 05 '21

Another question: I named this sub JewsOfConscience around the ethical challenge that Jews face. What do you think are the main responsibilities of a Jew of Conscience today?

What is the best way for us to continue in the struggle, particularly for Palestinian liberation?

3

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

This is a difficult question since I believe the occupation is permanent. What, then, is there to do? I fought my fight but perhaps as I fought, the occupation was already permanent. So if I fought what couldn’t be won, should I advise others to do the same now? The important thing i think is to be as honest as we can and not to hide our views or wrap them up in concepts that allow us to participate with others for justice but protect us from other Jewish establishment types who seek to shut us down. I’m not being very helpful here I know. Right now and for the immediate future and beyond, we are stuck here.

2

u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 05 '21

From user Ok-Aioli-7238:

Q1.) Why is it always viewed as laudable and aspirational when Jews demand reparation for historical crimes done to them ( Sephardic community receiving money from Spain because the Inquisitors, holocaust reparation and even Swiss banks giving out reparations for their complicities with Nazi regime and so on) But viewed as pathological when Palestinians demand reparations or compensation ?

Q2.) I hope you could tell us more about the dilemma's and ambiguities and grey areas and where things gone wrong and mistakes were made towards others when it comes to Jewish resistance, whether it be in WW2 or otherwise, so we can have a wholistic image of resistance movements and it's challenges from a Jewish perspective. (maybe recommend a book as well if you wish as well)

6

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

Reparations are always a thorny issue and complicated as to who can demand what and who gets what. In 1987, in Jerusalem, I introduced my Toward a Jewish Theology of Liberation in a series of lectures and cited the Jewish need to confess to, and the subsequent need for, reparations to the Palestinian people. As you might imagine, this was quite controversial then. Still?

On Jewish resistance during the Holocaust, there are a number of books written on the subject, though the overall emphasis in Holocaust scholarship, I think quite correctly, is the fact that throughout Europe, Jews were caught up in situations where, as communities, there power was quite limited. This was Rubenstein’s sense that, within the context of the cycle of violence and atrocity directed toward Jews, only power can protect Jews. I do believe in the need for Jewish empowerment but not the oppression of another people.

2

u/ajewofconscience11 Nov 05 '21

Marc, would you speak a bit about Levinas & his influence on your thinking, i.e. the Other, the face of the Other, responsibility to the Other, etc.

2

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

I came to Levinas late when I was asked to teach a class on Jewish philosophy in the 1990s. His broader philosophy is of little interest to me and I’m certainly not an expert on it. His Rabbinic musings interest me little. There are other issues with Levinas, including his thoughts about those outside the West and whether or not Palestinians are our neighbor. But his writings on the Jewish prophetic qua prophetic are deep and haunting. Some of my current writings on the Jewish prophetic are no doubt influenced by him to some extent. As I wrote this morning in my journal: “Freezing the prophetic in hope is a losing proposition.” You might find my mediation on the prophetic - Prophetic Interiors - in Finding Our Voice: Embodying the Prophetic and Other Misadventures - to be of interest in this regard.

2

u/ajewofconscience11 Nov 05 '21

Thank you!

2

u/ajewofconscience11 Nov 05 '21

One of the two quotes opposite the Contents page in Finding Our Voice is Emmanuel Levinas: "Judaism, disdaining this false eternity, has always wished to be a simultaneous engagement and disengagement. The most deeply committed person, the prophet, is also the most separate being, and the person least capable of becoming an institution."

1

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

Indeed!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 06 '21

Dr. Ellis, did you ever get to meet Rabbi Elmer Berger?

1

u/marc_ellis Nov 07 '21 edited Nov 07 '21

No I did not meet Rabbi Berger but he wrote me a long letter in response to one of my early books, if I remember correctly it was my Beyond Innocence and Redemption. Though he didn’t agree with my understanding of the Jewish people, in general, he was very positive toward my book.

However, a warning - from my perspective. Rabbi Berger had a pre-Holocaust Reform Diaspora theological stance that is unavailable to us today. Though I am aware of the desire to reclaim Diaspora Judaism among some Jews of Conscience, while I admire the attempt, I think it misunderstands where we are today or, rather, where we should, if we could, return to. This is another long and complex discussion but suffice to say most of these Diaspora sensibilities presuppose Jewish empowerment. When the Jewish global population is overwhelming living in two Empire constellations, Israel and America, Diaspora is, for me, an illusion. For example, I do not identify as a Diaspora Jew.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 07 '21

Thanks for the response Dr. Ellis.

I have been meaning to read the biography on Rabbi Berger, written by Jack Ross.

1

u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 05 '21

Hello Dr. Ellis, thank you for being here.

My question is about inclusion in the Jewish community. There are often discussions in Jewish spaces about who counts as Jewish and what it means to be Jewish. On one hand, Jews with dissenting opinions are labeled un-Jews. On another, smaller communities, often of Jews of color, are seen as needing validation from mainstream authorities.

The common thread is that mainstream Jewish authorities negate the Jewish legitimacy of those with different practices and opinions.

How do you see inclusivity and exclusivity within the Jewish community? How could this change over time?

9

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

The search for validation from the Constantinian Jewish establishment is endless. The exile of Jews of Conscience is permanent and tied to the permanent occupation of Palestine. Progressive Jews are the Left-wing of Constantinian Judaism. Jews of Conscience are on their own. Their won’t be a return.

While I believe in inclusion within and among Jews of Conscience, I am dubious about highlighting this issue. The central question - the only question - for Jews of Conscience - as Jews - at this historical juncture - is Palestine. The right of Palestinians to be free in their own homeland is the key that unlocks other questions.

Yet, the path forward is even more focused and difficult since in my lifetime and yours the Palestinian key won’t be unlocked.

4

u/conscience_journey Jewish Anti-Zionist Nov 05 '21

Thanks for the answer.

I agree that it is better for Jews of Conscience to struggle for liberation than to seek inappropriate validation. It is still emotionally painful that Constantinian Judaism creates a wall between myself and my fellow Jews.

2

u/marc_ellis Nov 05 '21

Yes, I understand.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 05 '21

While I believe in inclusion within and among Jews of Conscience, I am dubious about highlighting this issue. The central question - the only question - for Jews of Conscience - as Jews - at this historical juncture - is Palestine. The right of Palestinians to be free in their own homeland is the key that unlocks other questions.

Thank you for putting this so eloquently Dr. Ellis.

I wholeheartedly agree.

1

u/xland44 Israeli Nov 06 '21 edited Nov 06 '21

While I believe in inclusion within and among Jews of Conscience, I am dubious about highlighting this issue. The central question - the only question - for Jews of Conscience - as Jews - at this historical juncture - is Palestine. The right of Palestinians to be free in their own homeland is the key that unlocks other questions.

Hi Dr. Elis,

Do you believe that a one-state solution is viable?

As an israeli, I think one of the biggest reasons most left-wing israelis fear the one-state solution and instead opt for the two-state solution, is the fear that a country with a non-jewish majority would enable the possibility of a haven against antisemitism to no longer be the case. At the same time, it seems as if a two-state solution is getting further and further away from reality, with Israel continuing to build in the West Bank and mutual hate continuing to grow. Do you believe that it's possible for a stable and democratic one-state to ever occur, with neither jews nor palestinians fearing a loss of rights?

3

u/marc_ellis Nov 06 '21

I have thought for a long time and still think today that a two state solution would be best for both Jews and Palestinians. But that would be two full states, with Palestinians having all of the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza. No settlers in East Jerusalem or the West Bank and full freedom for Gaza. Over time economic, political and social bridges could be built to move the lives of Israelis and Palestinians into a better place.

Obviously that isn’t going to happen and, in reality, there is one state with millions of Palestinians within the state but under Israeli control. So the question for the foreseeable future is what will happen within that state. Whether the plight of Palestinians will become better or worse within that state is the question.

•

u/[deleted] Nov 22 '21

The AMA with Dr. Ellis ended nearly 3 weeks ago, but I thought I'd sticky this post in case anyone wanted to read.

AMA AMA with Dr. Marc H. Ellis, Professor of Jewish History and Jewish Studies and the author of more than 30 books, LIVE at 11 AM EST 11/5

You are about to leave Redlib