A question to our Jewish allies: What do you think of Hamas' 2023 response that it did not target civilians on October 7?

[u/endingcolonialism]

Following October 7, Hamas stated on several occasions that it does not target civilians in general and that it did not target civilians on October 7 in particular. For example, the "Our Narrative" document in particular states:

"Operation Al-Aqsa Flood on Oct. 7 targeted the Israeli military sites, and sought to arrest the enemy’s soldiers to pressure on the Israeli authorities to release the thousands of Palestinians held in Israeli jails through a prisoners exchange deal. Therefore, the operation focused on destroying the Israeli army’s Gaza Division, the Israeli military sites stationed near the Israeli settlements around Gaza.

Avoiding harm to civilians, especially children, women and elderly people is a religious and moral commitment by all the Al-Qassam Brigades’ fighters. We reiterate that the Palestinian resistance was fully disciplined and committed to the Islamic values during the operation and that the Palestinian fighters only targeted the occupation soldiers and those who carried weapons against our people. In the meantime, the Palestinian fighters were keen to avoid harming civilians despite the fact that the resistance does not possess precise weapons. In addition, if there was any case of targeting civilians; it happened accidently and in the course of the confrontation with the occupation forces."

My question to Jewish allies is: Did you hear such statements? And either way, do you tend to believe them? I would also love to hear what you think of it in more details in the comments.

(Ops: This is more of a "discussion" but since the tag is for flaired users only, I didn't use it).

199 votes, 23h ago

25 I tend to believe it

55 I tend not to believe it

16 I didn't hear they said that, I would tend to believe it

35 I didn't hear they said that, I would tend not to believe it

68 I don't know/I'm not Jewish/Show me the results

[u/echtemendel]

Avoiding harm to civilians, especially children, women and elderly people is a religious and moral commitment by all the Al-Qassam Brigades’ fighters.

I lived through the suicide bombings of the 90's and early 2000's. I don't believe this for a second.

However, I do believe that:

1. Their main goals were indeed what they stated. Anything else is just irrational from a military perspective. Say what you will about Hammas and friends, but they are very much not irrational.
2. It seems that they over estimated the Israeli army's ability to defend its bases and the border, and underestimated Israeli civilian's lack of boundaries when it came to hosting a freaking rave next to a concentration camp (that is to say: I don't think they knew about the Nova festival ahead of time). However, when they did fly over it they decided for whatever reason that shooting at these civilians is the correct think to do. This is pretty obviously targeting civilians.
3. All Israeli military casualties inflicted by Hammas and the rest of the resistance in their fight against Zionist oppression is 100% moral and justified, without any doubt.
4. Even if they did 10x what they actually did, and limited themselves to hurting only civilians this would be horrendous, but not even a drop in the bucket compared to Zionist crimes. It's simply isn't a balanced situation in any way shape or form. Simple put, people oppressed by a settler-colonial force that is supported by the strongest empire in world history, which utilizes continuous ethnic cleansing and genocide for over 75 years, etc. etc. - have all rights to resist it. Anyone who doesn't want violence should strive for full and complete decolonization of Palestine. The basic root of the problem is Zionism, not Palestinian resistance to it.

[u/sheogorath227 → u/echtemendel]

Agreed to all points, and to add on to #3, it's not only justified, but completely legal under international law.

[u/echtemendel → u/sheogorath227]

True, but if we're honest "international law" means nothing, it's all a question of the geopolitical interests of the big players (and mainly the western block). For example, what was done to Russia compared to what was (not) done to Israel.

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/echtemendel]

That must have been horrifying for you. Glad you're okay

[u/echtemendel → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

First of all: thanks.

In any case, it was indeed somewhat horrifying, but the vast majority of the time it was like living in any other western country. The Palestinians at the time had it orders of magnitude worse than me and/or most Israeli children (and obviously still do).

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/echtemendel]

Sure, but that doesn't mean your experiences can't affect you or other people. When I was a teacher I had to deal with some active lockdowns. The gunman didn't get in, but that doesn't mean we weren't affected. Just differently

[u/echtemendel → u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

Of course, and please don't get me wrong - I'm grateful for your response. It's just that my general experience is that people in the west (as a group, not individuals) tend to have more sympathy to the suffering of Israelis than to the suffering of Palestinians, so I've got used to reminding people that Palestinians have it way, way worse than us. Specifically, in Germany where I live people tend to listen to Jews in general much more than to Palestinians (for obvious historical reasons).

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993 → u/echtemendel]

I get that

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[u/richards1052]

Israeli civilians were killed. Some by Israeli fire, some by Gazans who flooded into Israel following breaches of the fence by Hamas. The latter may not have intended to kill civilians, but they and other Palestinians did so.

[u/[deleted]]

Sorry, all actors involved in this mess have a lot to lose via public opinion. It's in the best interest of Israel and Hamas to lie about wrongdoings.

So no, it's a lie.

[u/malachamavet]

I tend to believe their story in as much as it applies to Al-Qassam and is largely accurate, but it's basically impossible to have anything approaching an actual idea of what happened other than what the Palestinian resistance groups and the Israeli state say (because the military censor regime in Israel makes any independent investigation the equivalent).

I think it is likely that there were Palestinians who weren't involved in the pre-planned Al Aqsa Flood who perpetrated crimes of opportunity due to the collapse of any kind of situational control from either the resistance groups or the Israeli military. Civilians technically, though I'm hesitant to call violent gang members civilians in the same sense as ordinary Palestinian workers who looted a tractor or whatever.

Also there's definitely tons of friendly-fire/Hannibal events that are completely unreported.

[u/PlinyToTrajan → u/malachamavet]

It's well documented that disorganized groups of civilians in civilian garb came through the holes in the Gaza border enclosure that were made earlier in the day by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad soldiers. There are photos available.

[u/b_thny]

I believe that is their official position but I think that realistically Hamas knew that it wasn’t possible to enforce it on October 7. I also think that required military service for Israelis blurs the line between civilian/military, at least for most adults.

[u/Darth_BunBun]

It doesn't actually matter what they might have intended. Israel's own sloppy security made it possible for Hamas (as well as, probably, non-Hamas civillians) to greatly exceed any scope of violence they might have previously planned. And since abducting civilians was as much a part of their hostage strategy as taking soldiers, there is no reason to doubt that they also saw benefit in killing as many people as they could.

Hamas' actions cannot be condoned, but given the nature of their enemy (whose own depravity has been verified numerous times before and after October 7th), you can only say that Hamas's violence was unwise, not unjust.

[u/Adept_Thanks_6993]

I don't buy it for a second, but I do think any alleged war criminals should be tried at the ICC with everything they're entitled to. Israeli or Palestinian.

[u/Roy4Pris]

Norman Finkelstein frequently uses the Nat Turner revolt as an analogy for Oct 7. Here's a recent segment in which he makes his points.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txrZdIeY-Ec

[u/ContentChecker]

Hi OP,

This should be a 'Discussion' post.

My personal opinion is that I don't believe any faction on any side in any issue.

I will follow the story as it unfolds and defer to the judgment of human rights organizations after doing my own due diligence to understand what happened.

[u/BarGroundbreaking862 → u/ContentChecker]

I don’t believe any faction on any side on any issue either.

[u/Darth_BunBun → u/ContentChecker]

Can you really be a fence-sitter at this late date?

[u/ContentChecker → u/Darth_BunBun]

I don't consider that being a 'fence-sitter'.

We're talking about taking any organization at their word only.

I won't do that.

It's on us to do our own due diligence.

[u/Darth_BunBun → u/ContentChecker]

There is really nothing to figure out. Hamas is guilty of many crimes, and so is Israel. Neither side is innocent, but if you don’t know which side you are on by now, when will you be?

[u/ContentChecker → u/Darth_BunBun]

I haven't lost sight of what is happening (genocide) and who is responsible (Israel).

That has nothing to do with blindly accepting the word of a given faction.

[u/Darth_BunBun → u/ContentChecker]

I guess I just don’t see the purpose of interrogating Hamas’ good intentions on October 7th. If you are on the side of their cause, then you must defend the harm that comes from fighting the war the way they are fighting it.

I suppose what you are really asking is ”is Hamas an organization that will deliberately use terrorism against civillians rather than do their utmost to limit their violence to military targets?” I am sure that they would prefer to attack only military targets, but given their limited options, I don’t think you can be surprised that they can’t always restrict their terrorism to only soldiers.

But then again… when has Israel ever restrained itself from slaughtering civillians? Israel strapped bombs to thousands of unwitting Lebanese and detonated them all at once! I don’t support violence by either side, but Hamas’ actions are really just sauce for the gander.

[u/ContentChecker → u/Darth_BunBun]

All I am saying is, I do not take any organization at their word.

Clearly the underlying issue is a settler-colonial ideology that usurped the Palestinian demographic majority in 48' and onwards.

But when it comes to specific phenomena, I'm going to look into things myself the best I can.

[u/psly4mne → u/Darth_BunBun]

They didn't say they aren't on one side or the other, just that they don't trust Hamas to tell the truth about this point.

[u/Darth_BunBun → u/psly4mne]

Why on earth would anyone trust the IDF either, given their conspicuous and well documented war crimes? And why is support for any one side in a war dependent on their propaganda departments telling the “truth”?

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[u/BanEvader_Holifield]

Considering the point was to take captives for a prisoner swap, I’m not really understanding what good targeting civilians would do, assuming “targeting” means massacring.

Also there’s just been way too much evidence of deaths being at the hands of the IDF or outright fabrications.

[u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet]

I trust them marginally more than Israel's claims that they don't target civilians, but only marginally.

[u/Carlsen021]

It’s the first time I have seen it, and I think an accurate depiction of what was intended by the action on Oct 7th.

The objective was to capture military or other hostages to arrange a prisoner exchange.

The military response caused many civilian deaths (they had no choice but to battle the invaders). One female tank commander refused orders to fire on civilians on houses.

Where is the IDF report, it has no been released.

I don’t believe the Hamas instruction was to kill women and children specifically.

This is at variance with IDF orders in Gaza (or the actions of individuals and IDF units), where civilians have been targeted.

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[u/Time_Waister_137]

I am reminded of the observation of the great American philosopher (and world heavy weight boxing champion) Mike Tyson: “All your plans go out the window as soon as you are hit in the face”.

Those of us fortunately safe from conflict may recall school yard fights among children: “he started it” , “no she started it” etc. etc. and need to act like the adults in the room and apply ourselves to try to put an end to this.

[u/Zellgun]

Just like any organization, including the IDF, there will be war criminals who take advantage of the chaos to further their own personal needs and desires. There is also without doubt, a lot of angry, traumatized Hamas members that are hellbent on revenge.

Just like any organization, these individuals need to answer for their crimes in some way. Might be controversial, but I say we let Hamas deal with them, "internal investigations" so they say. This is one mistake Hamas did not properly follow through, although at the same time, I know that it would do little to quell the international outrage over Oct 7th, thus they didn't pursue. Also everyone was getting killed, so they probably had other priorities in mind.

Hamas has problems and while I recognize certain Hamas elements as crucial for the resistance against Zionism, I also believe that at the formation of a Palestinian state, Hamas needs to disband and be absorbed, just like Israel did with the Irgun, Lehi and other Zionist terrorist groups that were absorbed in the formation of Israel. Once Palestinian state has been formed, there is no need for resistance and there is no need for Hamas.

The easiest way to get rid of Hamas is to remove their legitimacy, and how? Palestinians need their own state that they can govern without interference. As soon as Israel invades or attacks Palestine, Hamas becomes relevant once again.

[u/PlinyToTrajan]

See my Oct. 19, 2024 post, "Questions about Sinwar's Death." (The post is meant to raise questions not only about the immediate circumstances of his death, but his overall legacy.)

I note there:

Something written in the June, 2024 Wall Street Journal exclusive about Sinwar's private messages has stayed with me. "'Things went out of control,' Sinwar said in one of his messages, referring to gangs taking civilian women and children as hostages. 'People got caught up in this, and that should not have happened.'" Wall Street Journal, Jun. 10, 2024, "Gaza Chief’s Brutal Calculation: Civilian Bloodshed Will Help Hamas."

I also asked, regarding New York Times reporting:

The description of the planning for the Oct. 7, 2023 attack as reported by the New York Times in its recent exclusive based on minutes of Hamas meetings went like this:

"At this point, preparations for the attack were roughly a month from completion, according to the June 2022 minutes. The plans included striking 46 positions staffed by the Israeli military division that guards the border, and then targeting a major air base and intelligence hub in southern Israel, as well as cities and villages."

"The leaders said it would be easier to target those residential areas if the military bases were overrun first — a prediction that proved to be correct on Oct. 7."

New York Times, Oct. 12, 2024, "Secret Documents Show Hamas Tried to Persuade Iran to Join Its Oct. 7 Attack."

Did Hamas' high command, including Sinwar, plan a bloody slaughter of Israeli civilians, or did they have a different plan that went awry? Was it or wasn't it in Sinwar's nature to viciously and indiscriminately kill in that manner? With Israel's control of information and limitations on access for foreign press, the full story of Oct. 7, 2023 remains elusive.

Given the materials the New York Times has access to, minutes of a string of Hamas meetings in which the Oct. 7, 2023 attacks were planned, has it given an adequate account of whether Hamas high command intended to perpetrate atrocities?

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