r/JewsOfConscience • u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist • 21d ago
Discussion - Flaired Users Only What are your thoughts on the Shul firebombing that happened today in Australia?
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u/zarakor Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
All I could think was how scared I am when mosques are attacked. Doesn't matter who does it. Attacking a sanctuary is wrong. Schools, hospitals, places of worship, etc.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
On the one hand - I hope the synagogue arsonists are caught, whoever they may be. But I worry they might be motivated by politics or religion.
A year ago, a Palestinian restaurant was also subject to an arson attack.
While the buildings targeted are completely different institutions (one is religious and one is not); politics did a play a role with the restaurant.
Yet, to this day, the police haven't explained their rejection of that political angle for the restaurant, despite the multiple attacks on an outspoken pro-Palestine activist/restauranteur who is a Palestinian.
Moreover, police claimed it wasn't politically-motivated despite the perpetrators explicitly saying it was.
Vandals also later left a pig's head at the front door of the Palestinian man's restaurant - which police dismissed and trivialized. The Palestinian man's home was vandalized too.
A prominent Palestinian Australian activist says revelations police knew his Melbourne restaurant was allegedly burned down for political reasons has “ripped open” a festering wound, deepened by officers’ dismissal of a pig heart left at the restaurant’s door.
[...]The firebombing was not the end, with police later dismissing a pig heart being dumped at Burgertory’s door as “just littering”, Tayeh said.
“This twisted act, meant to terrorise and demean, was brushed aside without investigation, leaving us with no recourse, no protection, and no support from those sworn to protect us,” he wrote.
The violence later hit closer to home with Tayeh’s house being targeted by a Molotov cocktail which exploded at his front door – an incident the Burgertory owner said police also downplayed as leaving “minor damage”.
So, for now I'm waiting to see how this story progresses.
My immediate reaction though, was to think about the Palestinian restaurant due to the similarities of the attack but total lack of concern by the authorie
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist 21d ago
Australia is a POS settler colonial regime so it's not at all surprising.
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u/agelaius9416 Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Always (not really) shocked me that in the Netherlands synagogues and Jewish sites get police protection and mosques get nothing, even though mosques are more frequently attacked.
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u/proletergeist Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
I think it sucks. Firebombing a synagogue is antisemitism 100% of the time.
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u/FarmTeam Anti-Zionist 21d ago edited 21d ago
I’m sorry, but that’s just not always true.
Sometimes it’s insurance fraud and very occasionally it’s self-inflicted for sympathy. It’s important not to jump to conclusions.
Are we sure this is the work of Muslims? Hear me out:
This is the same Orthodox synagogue that has been embroiled in sexual scandals for the last decade. Over 70 counts of rape and sexual assault were committed here against children in the school associated with this synagogue.
The hard feelings ran VERY deep as the synagogue paid to fly the accused abusers to Israel to escape justice in Australia. IT GETS WORSE. While the abusers were fleeing justice in the West Bank another series of sexual assault allegations came out against the same leaders and others AND there was a bunch of corrupt business involving members of the Knesset using their influence and power to interfere with extradition proceedings. They were subsequently prosecuted and stepped down from their positions.
This all took place in a community in the West Bank known as as “a haven for pedophiles” - Immanuel.
Meanwhile the families of the abused got involved in civil lawsuits against the synagogue and got big payouts, bankrupting the organization.
I’m not saying that I know what’s going on but maybe it’s worth considering the possibility that it was a disgruntled parent, abused child (now grown up) or even an insurance scheme.
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u/ShittyDriver902 Atheist 21d ago
Attacking a place of worship no matter whose it is. Do not fall for the Zionist logic of an eye for an eye, the cycle of violence needs to end with them
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Would it help Indigenous justice in America or Canada to burn down churches?
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u/ShittyDriver902 Atheist 21d ago
We need to remember that many Jews where deceived into believing Zionism, and that many want to work with Palestinians to find a way to coexist together, and the same goes for Palestinians, because that’s the natural state of humans until altered by things like propaganda and hate. No one deserves any of this, we’re all humans and the sooner we accept that we can’t change the past but we can only change what we choose to do, the sooner we find what is right. Do not expel Jews who have been living there for generations based on ethnicity, Palestinians do not want to commit genocide
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago edited 21d ago
that many Jews where deceived into believing Zionism
I disagree. They were sucked into colonialist-nationalism for the same reason that other people become colonialist-nationalists. Zionism is purely a colonialist-nationalist ideology and only became a mass movement post WWII. Jews do not get a pass for being colonialist-nationalists because Nazis.
Besides — many Jews saw through Zionism and fought it to this day. Those that took it up knew what it meant and that it required the destruction of the natives and they were fine with it. Positioning them as being fooled makes them out as fools. They were not. The supporters of Zionism committed to it despite knowing what it was all about and those that continue to support it today know it is genocidal.
that many want to work with Palestinians to find a way to coexist together,
Not the Zionists. Zionism requires domination of the indigenous and is anti-egalitarian and colonialist in nature. No Zionist will ever agree to Israel not maintaining a Jewish majority.
and the same goes for Palestinians,
No Palestinian can ever accept the inequality that is at the Zionist core. Certainly no nationalist Palestinian.
because that’s the natural state of humans until altered by things like propaganda and hate.
Propaganda has nothing to do with it. That is a Zionist trope and is not required to explain anything.
The Zionists came into the land to conquer it with British support and were open about it in both word and deed. They earned the hatred of the Palestinians by making it blatantly obvious that their arrival was the harbinger of the Palestinians' destruction. The Palestinians were perfectly aware of this from the Balfour declaration and onwards. Read Rashid Khalidi for details.
No native people can be expected to give up their land to invaders without a fight, and no colonialist should expect the natives not to fight their colonisation.
Do not expel Jews who have been living there for generations based on ethnicity,
Leave the Jews out of this. They are not relevant. The Israelis are who we are talking about. Identifying the Israelis with the Jews is yet another Zionist falsehood.
Palestinians do not want to commit genocide
Expulsion of the Israelis is a Zionist projection of their ideology, practices and policies on the Palestinians. The Palestinians require justice and equality and deserve their inalienable rights. It is the duty of any upstanding person — Jews included — to do whatever they can to help them gain justice and equality.
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u/springsomnia Christian with Jewish heritage and family 21d ago
This is completely wrong and I don’t think the person who did this was a supporter of Palestine, as it’s a known neo Nazi tactic to use such violence towards synagogues (such as with the Tree of Life shooting). Protesting outside synagogues is fine, but violence and terror is not. I also wish that the officials posting for this rightly would also have sympathy for the Palestinian restaurant that also got firebombed.
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u/reddit_throwaway_ac Anti-Zionist Ally 17d ago
the way i see it, you cannot be pro Palestinian and antisemitic
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u/romanticaro Ashkenazi 21d ago
there’s an uptick i’ve anecdotally noticed of antisemitism being masked by pro-palestinian activism… the people don’t even care about palestine. it’s a shande.
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u/viridianxcity LGBTQ Jew 21d ago
This is controversial I know but I actually do think it’s ok to protest outside a place of worship under certain circumstances. However bombing one is never ever ok.
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u/_II_I_I__I__I_I_II_ Jewish Anti-Zionist 20d ago
Yea I agree too that it's ok to protest.
This past year there have been several so-called 'real estate events' held at community centers and synagogues, selling stolen Palestinian land in the OPT.
Whenever these events were protested, the corporate media and politicians framed it as harassment against the local community.
Total nonsense - they were protesting the sale of Palestinian land.
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u/SirPansalot Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
Rather obviously an anti-semitic hate crime. Same thoughts as when churches and mosques are destroyed; it’s awful and if done in war constitutes war crimes
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago edited 21d ago
This is exactly why conflating antisemitism with anti-Israel is wrong.
It also demonstrates that the Jewish community establishment should not come out in support of Israel since by that they associate themselves with Israel, which means they will be held responsible for Israeli crimes.
If the arsonists are caught and claim that their motive was because the shul's community organisation came out in support of the Gaza genocide — assuming they did, some may conclude that this is morally justifiable.
I do not agree with this logic, but the root-cause is the Zionist actions.
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u/crossingguardcrush Jewish 21d ago
This leads to a dangerous line of thinking where if some Jews do something wrong we're all to blame. I see your logic, but I reject it.
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u/nikiyaki Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Listen, if individual Jews donated tons of money to Israel, put that on them. Boycott them, protest, whatever.
But you can't know that every person in that congregation did. It's collective punishment.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago
True. I don't think anyone can justify this act.
However, the Zionist strategy of conflating anti-Israel with antisemitism and the collaboration of the mainstream Jewish establishment with this are both at the root of the rising tide of antisemitism, since it ascribes the Zionist crimes to the Jews.
The Zionists do not and never have given a rat's ass about the interest and well being of the Jewish diaspora. On the contrary — antisemitism works in their favour by proving that Zionism is the only option for the Jews, which is why they have been known to encourage it.
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u/psly4mne Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
But you can't know that every person in that congregation did. It's collective punishment.
Do you have to know the minds of every customer of an institution in order to judge that institution's actions? I wonder if you would apply that standard anywhere else. You wouldn't even be able to support sanctions against Israel because there might be one Israeli who didn't support the genocide.
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u/BrianMagnumFilms Jewish 21d ago edited 21d ago
you do if you’re giving everyone inside a potential death sentence. protests, sanctions, etc are one thing. direct violence - not even on the ground, but at a jewish institution in melbourne - is entirely another.
i can’t even believe this is a debate. it’s a shul in the diaspora. again, a protest is one thing - religious institutions are fair game if they’re materially supporting a political ideology. but a firebomb??? come on. psychotic to be shifting blame around and handwringing over that.
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u/psly4mne Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
I don't agree with firebombing a shul (certainly not if there were people inside), but that doesn't mean I should condone absurd logic that would make it impossible to take action against any institution.
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u/BrianMagnumFilms Jewish 21d ago
whenever i have these debates i feel like abraham bargaining with hashem, asking if there’s just one good person in sodom will he spare it. except you’re not hashem, you’re another reddit user, and dealing out death and judgement should be done with some humility, not retroactive approval if it appears to be aligned with your politics; and we don’t even know the fucking arsonist’s motive yet, this is direct violence against random diaspora jews, just as any of us could suffer. the second you drop this “absurd logic” then every single person here is fair game to die, guilty by association, by our blood. call it slippery slope but the slope is very slippery here.
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u/psly4mne Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
whenever i have these debates i feel like abraham bargaining with hashem, asking if there’s just one good person in sodom will he spare it.
Found a new dictionary definition for self-righteousness.
I just hope your standard of "institutions can never be held responsible, only individuals" is a rhetorical trick that's convenient in the moment and not and actual principle you hold.
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u/BrianMagnumFilms Jewish 21d ago
i never said institutions can’t be held responsible - in fact, i specifically advocated for it in the form of sanctions and protest - what i said was, if you’re going to potentially sentence a bunch of people to death by bombing said institution then you should be certain the individuals inside are legitimate targets, not, say, random jews praying at shul. you wanna immediately shift blame around when a shul gets firebombed go ahead, i’m not interested in that exercise, thanks.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist 21d ago
The motivation for it isn't necessarily zionist crimes. While it might be, there are also plenty of white supremacists out there who would do it because they hate Jews.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Absolutely. However, these people are now fellow travellers on the Palestine bandwagon and for this we have the Zionists to thank.
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u/CJIsABusta Jewish Communist 21d ago
I don't know how true that is. Palestinians and their allies typically reject these people, from what I've seen.
Not to mention that these reactionaries and fascists are extremely dangerous to the liberation movement.
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u/BrianMagnumFilms Jewish 21d ago
i find this thinking deeply simplistic. first of all, antisemitism did not start with israel, and it’s fair to think it will not end with israel. it has always primarily functioned as scapegoating. that’s what this is, not antizionism waged with particular violence.
second of all, sorry, but “antisemitic violence is an understandable if regrettable result of israeli actions” very quickly descends into “all antisemitic violence is justified by israeli actions.” people have free will, and you do not need to commit hate crimes against diaspora jews to demonstrate that we, the good jews of conscience, must oppose israeli apartheid in order to clear our names of its crimes. i oppose israeli apartheid because it’s wrong, not to distance myself from it so that when the firebombs fly they know i’m one of the good ones. laying the blame entirely at israel’s feet - and i’m not downplaying the degree to which israeli actions result in global spikes in antisemitism - but removing all agency from the perpetrators of these hate crimes is not productive and it’s not good analysis.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago
This response is in bad-faith. The argument is a strawman and a misquote.
There is one point I make consistently throughout that can be summarised as follows:
Israel encourages antisemitism through associating its criminality with Jews by creating an identity between the Jewish diaspora and the Israeli state, while the Jewish establishment in the diaspora supports it through its unconditional support for Israel despite it being a criminal, genocidal state.
One of the main causes for the rise in antisemitism in the world today is the assertion by the Israeli state and its supporters that their's is a Jewish endevour, a Jewish state and anyone who opposes it hates Jews.
This assertion is a lie. There is nothing Jewish about Israel unless you believe that ethno-nationalism, racism and genocidal deeds are all Jewish.
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u/BrianMagnumFilms Jewish 21d ago
what am i misquoting exactly? you said “we need to blame the zionists and israel for creating the motivation for it.” we know nothing of the motivations of the arsonist, and even if we did know for certain that firebombing a goddamn shul in australia was motivated by antizionist politics the blame would reside primarily with the person who chose that misguided methodology to pursue those politics, politics that we all of course agree with, and only secondarily with the israeli state and its conflation of judaism with its policy. again, people have free will, you do not need to buy into israel’s lie that judaism and zionism are one. you have a state that spreads a lie and a person who commits a crime based on that lie (hypothetically, since again we know nothing of the motivation), and you are saying we should remove all blame from the latter. i disagree fundamentally.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago
what am i misquoting exactly?
When you take a string of words, put it between quotes and claim this is what someone has said when it is at best your interpretive paraphrase of what they said you are, at best, misquoting them.
I agree we do not know with any certainty what the arsonists' motives are, since they are yet to be questioned.
I agree that the blame lies with the arsonist — regardless of his motives, which are likely to be antisemitic. However, as I have stated many times in this discussion — the Israeli state fans the flames of antisemitism for its own ends as a strategy and in this it is antisemitic. More significantly, the established leadership of the Jewish communities in many locations is knowingly complicit and supportive of this strategy and both should be called out.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago edited 21d ago
Israel is in the name of this synagogue (as with many others) and "Israel" (the ancient area, not the modern fascist ethnostate...) it is in MANY Jewish prayers...where do we draw the line of what is considered "Pro-Israel" especially when it comes to antizionist non-Jews who may not understand that there is indeed nuance with the word itself....
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago edited 21d ago
I think it's differentiating the political project of Zionism i n the form of reactionary, aggressivs, militant modern country, from Judaism, as culture, religion, and people. Unfortunately, the media, politicians, etc do little to help people understand. I mean, our non-Jewish understanding of Judaism doesn't go much deeper than the Israeli state as a Jewish state, which is of of course wrong. So-called leaders like Biden fail. I would think they would have a duty to not go along with that thinking, such as them stupidly describing college campus protests as battles between pro-Palestinians against the Jews. It's also harmful when the PM of Israel is.the keynote speaker during Holocaust memorial events and uses the occasion as a political stump speech, and even the foundations that are meant to promote understandings of Judaism and history are sometimes propaganda outlets for Zionism.
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist 19d ago
I am very disappointed with the number of people who are quick to assume this is a "false flag" instead of antisemitism.
Only one user is proposing this. So I'm confused what you're disappointed about? That anyone can comment on Reddit?
I see another comment affirming that there have been falsified attacks in the past, which is true - but unrelated to the claim you're making.
How did you find this sub?
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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist 18d ago
1 user is proposing it.
The other might be tunnel-visioning on the conflict; but still they're entitled to their opinion.
Earlier this year a congregant did in fact commit an arson attack on their own temple. So to an outsider, who is tunnel-visioning, it's not surprising they would think this has to do with I/P.
AFAIK there are no leads in the investigation.
And since our sub faces regular harassment - it's entirely reasonable to wonder what one's motives are to be here out of the blue.
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u/reddit_throwaway_ac Anti-Zionist Ally 17d ago
its bad. whats to discuss on this? admittedly, im only now hearing about this, but its just, bad. it shouldnt have happened, i wish the best for the victims and for the people responsible to be caught and properly punished.
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
On the West, the line between religion and secular politics is crumbling. I won what happens when religion is also a political identity? The State of Israel and its allies are responsible for falsely conflating Israelism with Judaism. In many ways, it's a cover to divert criticism or Israel's policies. For example, Zionist expansionists have used synagogues as places to sell settler rea estate in the occupied territories. Then they have credence to claim antisemitism when that Synagogue is protested for that purpose. I don't know what the story of this Synagogue is. But im reminded of the quote that goes something like "first they came for so and i did not speak up....then they came for me and there was no one to fight for me." I have to ask do Israeli Zionists and allies wrongfully put a target on the backs of all the world's, then exploiting depraved hate crimes to give a sense of credence pr I told you so", to Zionism?
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u/blishbog 19d ago
What’s the chance it was a false flag?
Either that or a bigot who hates Muslims just as much as
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u/Sir-Spork Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
You know, I wouldn’t put it past Israel to be behind it. They have done this exact same thing before. And Netanyahu was already quick to claim it’s due to the Australia government’s “extreme anti-Israel” stance
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
When have they done this "exact" same thing before?
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u/jerquee anti-zionist ethnic Ashkenazi 20d ago
When they bombed their own embassy in London https://x.com/MintPressNews/status/1793275669813539270
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u/Sir-Spork Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
This is a rabbit hole, I invite you to start by googling "Israeli false flag operations", it is a very long list of terrorist attacks that Israel has admitted to decades after and others that it hasn't but is suspected of being responsible by the international community. This includes terrorist attacks ranging all over the west and middle east. Some of these including firebombing of synagogues.
No, of course that doesn't mean all attacks on jewish places of worship are because of them. Especially now that they are succeeding in causing so much hate. But just saying I wouldn't be surprised, especially in western countries that are beginning to call out Israel's actions.
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u/zarakor Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
Honestly this is victim blaming without proof. If we had any more info, that's fine. But this was a terrorist attack no matter who was behind it.
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u/Sir-Spork Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
I fail to see how opining that I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel was involved is victim blaming. Unless you believe Israel = Judaism.
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u/daudder Anti-Zionist 21d ago
They have done this exact same thing before.
True.
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u/accidentalrorschach Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
When was a synagogue fire-bombed by the Israeli government?
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u/mxpapaya Ashkenazi 20d ago
I recommend reading “Three Worlds” by Avi Shlaim. There is pretty definitive proof (including some of the attackers admiring it) that Zionist groups in MENA countries like Iraq literally bombed synagogues to scare Jews in those countries into migrating to Israel. I wouldn’t necessarily be surprised if evidence comes out that a Zionist committed this attack in response to Australia’s recent pro-Palestine policies but until then I’ll assume it was an antisemitic attack
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