r/JewsOfConscience • u/dmg1111 • 24d ago
Opinion How are there Jews who still think "Democrats supported Hamas"?
We just watched Joe Biden, an avowed Zionist, who Menachem Begin thought was too belligerent towards Palestinians, destroy his legacy for Netanyahu's benefit. We saw Kamala Harris say nothing would change under her administration. They went so far off the deep end, Trump portrayed himself as the peace candidate and met with Muslim leaders to assure them they'd get treated better under him. (Obviously untrue but only made believable by Biden's hatred of Palestinians.)
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u/Big_Red_Machine_1917 Non-Jewish Ally 24d ago
I've said this before and doubtless say it again, Zionism is the spoiled brat of political ideologies. It doesn't matter that Biden has bent over backward to supply Israel's genocidal slaughter in Gaza, the fact that he's made some vague empty criticisms of the Israeli government is too much for them.
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u/hollywoodhandshook Jewish Anti-Zionist 24d ago
yup. its white supremacy - you can only be harmed and bullied, nothing you do is bullying and harming. you can blame the individual for the group and the group for the invididual, but nobody can ever do that to you.
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u/CarpeDiemMaybe Non-Jewish Ally 23d ago
Looking through headlines from staunch Zionist news and thinking, it’s like they view what is essentially a slap on the wrist from the UN or from any state criticizing Israel’s actions as analogous to propaganda preceding a pogrom in Tsarist Russia. It’s so bizarre to watch the mental gymnastics and irrationality
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 24d ago
I think the majority of people who believe that are actually not Jews. Anyone who has uncritically consumed Fox News for the past year is likely to believe that. Jews are a (sadly increasing) portion of that cohort, but remain on average better educated and less likely to consume Fox News than the average American.
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u/GladysSchwartz23 24d ago
Sadly my mom is one of the Jews who does. I don't understand it. It's like she's entirely lost her mind.
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 24d ago
My friend’s mother wrote a letter to NPR News saying that she would not donate this year like she normally does because of their “blatant anti Israel bias”…
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u/dmg1111 24d ago
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Jews are not going to be the majority of anything in the US. But there are still a ton of Jews who honestly think Dems love Hamas. NY-16 and NY-17 results are a manifestation of that, eg.
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u/Critter-Enthusiast 24d ago
I guess I would be curious what portion of Jews believe that. It is obviously a Republican talking point, and while most American Jews are Zionists I don’t think they’re mostly republicans.
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u/00000hashtable Conservative 24d ago edited 24d ago
From the right wing mindset: Israel is in an existential conflict with Hamas, and the world wants to see Israel lose. Anything short of unqualified support of Israel, including any public criticism at all, threatens Israel’s ability to combat Hamas, so therefore democrats support Hamas.
For example, Biden said Netanyahu isn’t doing enough to secure a hostage deal. He also gave Israel an ultimatum to meet various aid requirements and change how they were engaging - or lose military support. He didn’t follow through, but still even the proposal is viewed as being anti Israel, and in turn pro Hamas. Same can be said for Sanders recent amendments to limit specific arms transfers to Israel and the various dems who supported those amendments.
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u/No_Macaroon_9752 24d ago
Why do you think some right wingers believe the world wants Israel to lose?
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u/00000hashtable Conservative 24d ago
Because it’s repeated to them nonstop. The UN tries to pass a resolution against Israel, it’s because of anti Israel bias. Whatever happened in Amsterdam is because Europe isn’t safe for Jews. Call as many things as possible antisemitism, and look, antisemitism is on the rise.
To some extent Zionism is a concept for a safe haven for Jews. The best way to sell the need for that is to paint a picture of everywhere else being inhospitable to Jews.
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u/No_Macaroon_9752 24d ago
Yes, that makes sense. Like Netanyahu always uses tragedy to encourage Jewish people to move to Israel, despite Israel being very dangerous and ”surrounded by enemies.”
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u/Raptorpicklezz 24d ago
Because being found guilty at The Hague counts as “losing”, and much of the world very much does want Israel to be found guilty.
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u/DurianVisual3167 Jewish 24d ago edited 24d ago
I can't find the survey atm but when American Jews were surveyed on Harris only 8% said they thought Harris "was too far left" or whatever. I know we all probably have anecdotal experiences saying otherwise and that surveys are not always reliable (especially when surveying the Jewish American community for reasons I'm not gonna get into on this post) but I think "Jews think Democrats support Hamas" is a smaller issue than it's being made out to be.
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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew 24d ago
A common human behavior is to see something that a subset of one group does exclusively, and then equate that with the rest of the group. Leftists vote Democrat if they vote in a meaningful way at all, and I've never seen or heard of anyone who "supports Hamas" in any meaningful fashion that wasn't a self-proclaimed Leftist. Therefore, in the Zionist conservative mind, Democrat = Leftist = Hamas supporter.
Worth pointing out that most Jews, even Zionists, don't actually believe that Dems=Leftists=Hamas. Most Jews vote Dem, statistically speaking, including in the last election (as far as I know). The "Jews see the Democrats support Hamas!" line is just something the right likes to throw around to recruit Zionists -- Jewish or otherwise -- to their cause. Most Jews, Zionist Jews included, do seem to see that the Dems are still fully Zionist, albeit less so than the Rs.
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u/Time_Waister_137 Reconstructionist 24d ago
Biden has always on the right wing of the democratic party, an instinctive unthinking, unrepentant cold warrior, as if every problem is solvable by increasing the supply of weapons for any and every conflict.
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u/Ihsan2024 24d ago
Yea, I am so sick of claims of left-wing governments supposedly being antisemetic.
Their actions have been islamaphobic if anything. Allowing acts of terror against muslim populations which they wouldn't normally tolerate or support.
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 24d ago
I’ve heard the claim that he was more belligerent than begin but haven’t found any reliable sources for this. Obviously I’d assume they are buried but if you have anything I’d love to take a look. Thanks in advance!
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u/Typical-Car2782 24d ago
"In June 1982, a few days after the start of the Lebanon War, known as Operation Peace for the Galilee, Begin met with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in Washington. Several lawmakers grilled him over Israel’s alleged disproportionate use of force.
“A young senator rose and delivered a very impassioned speech — I must say that it’s been a while since I’ve heard such a talented speaker — and he actually supported Operation Peace for the Galilee,” Begin told Israeli reporters after he returned to Jerusalem.
The senator — Biden — said he would go even further than Israel, adding that he’d forcefully fend off anyone who sought to invade his country, even if that meant killing women or children.
“I disassociated myself from these remarks,” Begin said. “I said to him: No, sir; attention must be paid. According to our values, it is forbidden to hurt women and children, even in war… Sometimes there are casualties among the civilian population as well. But it is forbidden to aspire to this. This is a yardstick of human civilization, not to hurt civilians.”"
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 24d ago
I watched this interview
https://youtu.be/BrxTpo36h_4?si=CLpZ4VvQuWGHB3lb
I think it’s inflammatory and definitely not a professional interview but I want to understand the level of racism in Israel between different groups of Jews. And what are absorption centers? And are all communities / neighborhoods segregated? How much of the racism is based on skin color alone? I’d love for someone living in Israel to provide more info.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 24d ago
Do a Google search for "Menachem Begin Joe Biden" and look at the results. In the first couple of pages, you'll see right wing and far-right outlets like Jpost, National Review, Israel Hayom, JNS, Arutz Sheva, Jewish Press etc publishing articles recounting Begin allegedly telling Biden that "he's not a Jew with trembling knees" when they were trying to secure weapon shipments during the war in Lebanon. They use that meeting to say that his threat to withhold weapons if Israel were to invade Rafah (how did that turn out) is part of a consistent pattern going back decades and has always been hostile to Israel. It's absolutely absurd and ungrateful, but they believe what they believe
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u/dmg1111 24d ago
Biden didn't like West Bank settlements (hence the "trembling knees" comment) but they always leave out Begin telling Biden that you can't intentionally target women and children.
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 24d ago
Yeah I know, but that's when the supposed content of the conversation is elaborated like in Tevi Troy's piece in WSJ. When the right-wing outlets write about it, they generally make it seem like it was also about weapons shipments, not just settlements if they even mention it, like here. Stuff like this is what contributes to the pro-Israel conservatives attacking the Dems
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u/dmg1111 24d ago
Everyone forgets how hostile HW Bush and James Baker were towards Israel!
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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew 24d ago
Yeah, Baker even banned Netanyahu from the State Department building when he was deputy Foreign Minister under David Levy in Shamir's govt. It's how that wretch should be treated in Washington, not getting standing ovations
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u/MassivePsychology862 Non-Jewish Ally 24d ago
I watched this interview
https://youtu.be/BrxTpo36h_4?si=CLpZ4VvQuWGHB3lb
I think it’s inflammatory and definitely not a professional interview but I want to understand the level of racism in Israel between different groups of Jews. And what are absorption centers? And are all communities / neighborhoods segregated? How much of the racism is based on skin color alone? I’d love for someone living in Israel to provide more info.
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u/babiesmakinbabies 24d ago
I don't think it's necessarily Zionism, but classism. It's the ultra rich who hold this view.
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u/maxy_fruvous Anti-Zionist 24d ago
Because anything less than absolute cooperation and enthusiastic public support is terrorism according to Israel. Ergo, the democrats are Hamas.
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u/maxy_fruvous Anti-Zionist 24d ago
And I don’t think there’s as many Jews who actually believe that as western media and Hasbarists would like everyone to think.
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u/StoneyPicton 24d ago
Why does it have to be jews? Every group has people in it that believe things because so many versions exist and they only look in their own corner for the answers. Everyone needs to understand that there are many, many types of people in the world and all are susceptible.
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u/SoftWolverine267 24d ago
It’s no wonder Jill Stein received the support that she did in many parts of Michigan. I could hold my nose and vote for Harris, but I understand those who couldn’t. Even with facing the nightmare we now have of Donald Trump.
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u/Greatsayain Ashkenazi 24d ago
I saw a headline recently "trump demands return of hostages otherwise there will be hell to pay". Has hell not been being paid up until now? What could actually be done differently? I hate to ask how it could be worse because somehow there will be an answer but the democrats have not impeded Israel in any way, so I don't understand how people say Trump is better for Israel.