r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • Sep 04 '24

AAJ "Ask A Jew" Wednesday

It's everyone's favorite day of the week, "Ask A (Anti-Zionist) Jew" Wednesday! Ask whatever you want to know, within the sub rules, notably that this is not a debate sub and do not import drama from other subreddits. That aside, have fun! We love to dialogue with our non-Jewish siblings.

Please remember to pick an appropriate user-flair in order to participate! Thanks!

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16

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

[deleted]

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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Sep 04 '24

That’s a great question! And I feel like it’s similar to in this space!

Arabs and all ally’s are welcome in these spaces but probably should not be leading the conversation on messaging as far as it relates to Jewish issues specifically. And when topics discussing antisemtism arise, obviously listen more than speak. If someone calls you out for a “microaggession” that would be a great opportunity for conversation and mutual engagement!

And it’s a two way street. JVP wants to hear about what is imoortant to being a good ally for Palestine! So it’s good to share thoughts on what they could be doing better in that regard too!

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u/sudo_apt-get_intrnet LGBTQ Jew Sep 04 '24

I think there needs to be a balancing act.

On one hand, allies are great, and support is great! Educating people is a useful endeavor, and boosting a message via bodies is really helpful!

On the other hand, I think its way too easy to backfire. The point of an organization like JVP/this sub/similar orgs is not just to generically show support for Palestine. It is also to show that there is Jewish support for Palestine. If the organization that has Jewish in its name isn't majority Jewish then it becomes way easier to dismiss it entirely ("see? They say they're Jewish but the majority aren't! They're lying and only pretending to be Jewish!"), and it then becomes easier to dismiss other, similar organizations.

Not only that, but another point of Jewish pro-palestine orgs is to encourage otherwise non-activist antigenocide Jews to participate in activism, especially those worried about antisemitism (real or imagined) from non-Jewish antigenocide protestors. Once you hit a critical mass of non-Jews in the org, especially in leadership positions, it becomes significantly harder for the remaining Jews to actually police antisemitic microaggressions. I know the one time I tried to participate in a JVP activity I quickly got hit with some casual antisemitism by a gentile and have never went back because of it, and similar things happen in this sub that make me debate continuing to participate (though thanks to the magic of the format they quickly get called out).

TLDR: Its hard to do right inherently, and comes with a lot of drawbacks, but allyship and companionship are still important.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Sep 05 '24

The one that I love are the people insisting that we don't have a special connection to the problem, or that we somehow benefit from Zionism as opposed to having our own institutions occupied by the Zionists. And that in all cases we must center Palestinian voices because blah-blah-social-justice-jargon-bullshit.

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u/Popular-Flatworm-196 Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

My two cents as a "patrilineal" (don't get me started on my feelings about being told I don't count), nonreligious Jew: I was in a JVP virtual meeting and a Palestinian stepped up (figuratively) to speak. I was very moved by what he said. When Isr*el's favorite narrative is Jews and Arabs hate each other, I feel so much gratitude for allyship and comraderie in spaces like those.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

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21

u/MangoLovingFala7 Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

Shalom.

I just wanted to drop by and apologize for my country expelling its Jews and for the rampant antisemitism in our public discourse.

I know I am not personally responsible for the things my country and countrymen do, but I felt that it might be worth hearing for anyone who has dealt with Egyptian anti-semitism or the generational trauma from Abdelnasser’s ‘ethnic cleansing’ (euphemism for genocide) of Egyptian Jews.

Thanks for sharing empathy for Palestinians despite how easy it would be to just let ethnic hatred and tribalism control us.

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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

Thanks for your message. From what I've gleaned in my research, a lot of the Jewish community in Egypt was initially hopeful in the early days of the Nasser regime. I do wonder what might have happened to the Egyptian Jewish community if Israel hadn't invaded in 1956. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 05 '24

These sorts of messages are how we can build empathy, understanding, and cooperation between Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians and Jews/Israelis.

We must be able to acknowledge the other's historical pain and trauma if we are going to be able to achieve peace.

Thank you and god bless you.

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u/Best-Championship-66 Palestinian Sep 04 '24

is it true that a majority of jews are Zionists or is it just a lie?

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u/ezkori Ashkenazi, American, raised in orthodoxy, currently cultural Sep 04 '24

It is, unfortunately, true that most Jews would describe themselves as zionists. That being said, just as unfortunately, in modern Jewish society Zionism has so many meanings that the exact specifics of what that political belief means isn’t exactly clear. That being said, I’d say the vast majority of Jews right now unfortunately are turning a blind eye/truly not being exposed to the reality of what Palestinians have and are continuing to go through. It doesn’t help that 90% of mainstream Jewish organisations link themselves somehow to Israel, whether financially, politically, etc. it’s truly difficult to be an “active” Jew in mainstream Jewish society without being exposed to Zionism in some shape or form. It truly, maddeningly has permeated through much of modern Judaism

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u/elianna7 Queer Jew 🍉 Sep 04 '24

Yes. I live in Montreal and the Jewish community here is incredibly zionist. I know a few anti-zio jews but we’re a far smaller group. I’m queer and tend to run in queer circles so people I meet in these settings are usually anti-zio but outside of that, they’re very zio.

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u/Cornexclamationpoint Ashkenazi Sep 04 '24

Most Jews, at least American Jews, would likely be considered either Liberal Zionists or Non-Zionists.  Most Jews here are strongly anti-Netanyahu, anti-settlements, pro-two states, and pro-civil rights for Palestinian Israelis.  Adherence to early Zionist ideals such as the universal promotion of Aliyah and the negation of the diaspora are also practically non-existent at this point.

However, true anti-zionism, the actual dissolution of Israel as a Jewish state, is pretty rare.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 04 '24

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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 05 '24

To some extent, it depends on how one defines "Zionist," but the simple answer is yes, most Jews would identify themselves as Zionists.

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u/JakDaLad01 Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

When I see anti-zionist Jews protesting or standing up to Palestinian racism, I can only imagine the backlash from friends and communities. I try to put my place in that situation and think that I wouldn't have the courage. Are you seeing changes within your circles?

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u/elianna7 Queer Jew 🍉 Sep 04 '24

Yes, I’ve effectively been disowned by my Jewish side of the family (parents are divorced, mom converted but hasn’t practiced since they divorced nearly 20 yrs ago so I have no issues with her side of the family). I had thyroid cancer last year, diagnosed in November, and none of my family on my dad’s side even reached out (except for one cousin’s wife in the spring). (Also, I’m totally fine now so no need to worry!)

I was vocally anti-zio in 2021 as well, and that was the time where I lost every zionist friend I had (didn’t know any anti-zio jews really).

So yeah, lots of changes.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 05 '24

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u/ContentChecker Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 05 '24

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10

u/TurkeyFisher Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

I have seen my Zionist relatives stop posting support of Israel on Facebook and they don't comment on my posts supporting a ceasefire trying to argue with me anymore. I think it's becoming harder for them to support but I doubt they'll ever completely change positions on it. They're just waiting for a ceasefire so they congratulate Biden and the Israelis for their diplomacy even if it's a year overdue. It's all just social media noise though, none of it is meaningful activism.

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u/juflyingwild Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

An uncle of mine (Zionist) is finally starting to see through the propaganda from israeli media.

I think the aipac push to ban tiktok, telegram, etc bc it shows unfiltered news is proof that it is weakening their hold over people's minds.

We see live videos and reactions of elected israeli people glorifying the deaths of the oppressed.

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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

I'm seeing people who were quietly anti-Zionist becoming outspoken. I haven't witnessed many Zionists changing their minds in my own circles, but I imagine that has to be happening too.

1

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6

u/ShakeTheGatesOfHell Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

I know American Jews overall tend to vote left wing. Orthodox Jews, however, are generally more conservative. Is Chaya Raichik (host of Libs of TikTok) rather extreme even by Orthodox standards?

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u/Specialist-Gur Ashkenazi Sep 04 '24

That’s a good question. I’m not orthodox so I’ll be curious how they answer.

Anecdotally she’s more extreme than the orthodox people I know and definitely more hateful

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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Sep 04 '24

Chaya Raichik (host of Libs of TikTok) rather extreme even by Orthodox standards?

Depends on if you're asking about the sorts of stuff she says, or if you're asking about public activism, incitement on social media, or trying to ban books in public schools and libraries.
Also depends on which types of Orthodox. There are a lot of differences between Open Orthodox, Modern Orthodox, yeshivish, the ones in between the former two, hasidic, and probably some other loose subcategories. Open and Modern Orthodox can actually be moderate on a lot of issues, even if they might be rabidly and disgustingly pro-Israel or even Kahanists.

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u/ShakeTheGatesOfHell Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

She's Hasidic but I couldn't find anything more detailed than that.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

She is definitely not Hasidic. Hasidic Jews generally prohibit using the internet and social media entirely, and women in particular are prohibited from having their faces depicted in media of any kind, including in print.

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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24 edited Sep 04 '24

Chabad is very pro-outreach and uses the internet constantly. A lot of the Breslov movement use the internet as well. Hasidism has many movements within it, and not all are as restrictive as say Satmar.

Edit: Chaya Raichik is part of Chabad, a more outreach focused branch of hasidism if you read the article, you'll see that she's not that extreme by right-wing orthodox standards.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

Chabad and Breslov are notable extreme outliers in terms of Hasidic lifestyle and culture, and some would say they are no longer truly Hasidic sects today. They are Hasidic in the sense that they preach the teachings of the Baal Shem Tov, but not in the sociological sense. While both originated as Hasidic communities, most who affiliate with Chabad or Breslov are not considered Hasidic by any traditional definition of Hasidism. Chabad has not had a traditional Hasidic dynastic leadership since the death of the last Lubavitcher Rebbe in 1994, and Breslov has not had a leader since Rebbe Nachman's death over 200 years ago.

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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Sep 04 '24

Chabad isn't strict about internet or women's faces being exposed. They're actually really savvy about social media. The women also dress more fashionably and don't look like they're from the Victorian era, 1900 Poland, or draped in window curtains like what you'd see if you're in Boro Park or Monsey.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

Chabad is Chabad, they are not culturally, sociologically or structurally Hasidic even though they originated as a Hasidic sect. To put it simply, one who affiliates with Chabad is not necessarily a Hasid, whereas one who affiliates with Satmar is inherently a Hasid.

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u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Sep 04 '24

Chabad is absolutely a hasidic movement, and nobody would claim otherwise - including themselves. The biggest substantial difference between them and other large hasidic groups except for Breslov is that they don't have a (living) rebbe leading the sect or dynasty with his court, and that they dress in more modern ways. In terms of religious practices and stringencies, liturgy, ways of praying, prayer timing, use of classic hasidic texts and their own distinct ones, folklore etc, they are absolutely hasidic.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

Chabad is a Hasidic movement, of course. But affiliating with Chabad does not [necessarily] make one Hasidic.

1

u/Thisisme8719 Arab Jew Sep 04 '24

If you mean people who just pray at Chabad congregations, then sure, plenty of them aren't hasidic. But they don't call themselves Chabadniks or Lubavitchers.
But people who call themselves Lubavitchers - pray almost exclusively in Nusah Ari, venerate the Tanya and teachings of their different rebbes, follow the laws of their own Shulhan Arukh, only eat meat which follows their own shehitah rules, won't eat any foods prepared outside of Lubavitch homes on Passover and other legalistic peculiarities, do their farbrengers or whatever the hell those things are called etc - are absolutely hasidim. It doesn't matter if they were descended from Lubavitch families or became part of the movement, which sadly includes tons of Sephardim.

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

You are completely right, but in practice I know people who were born in Crown Heights, affiliate with Chabad and even label themselves "Chabadniks" but are very "modern" and do not consider themselves "Lubavitchers" in a Hasidic sense. There is a wide acceptable religious and cultural range in the Chabad world (including within the same families), many who affiliate deeply with Chabad have more in common culturally with Modern Orthodox than other Hasidic sects. My main thesis is that being born into and affiliating with Chabad does not necessarily make one a "Hasid" as it does in say Satmar or Skver or Bobov or Vizhnitz, etc.

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u/Saul_al-Rakoun Conservadox & Marxist Sep 05 '24

IME, American Jews tend to vote liberal, which is different from left-wing.

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u/Impressive-Collar834 Palestinian Sep 05 '24

What is one think you would like Palestinians in diaspora to understand about jews? Unfortunately Palestinians (outside of the 48 lands) (and Arabs) don't interact much with other jews in the world

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u/lilleff512 Jewish Sep 05 '24

I think things like this comment from this thread are really important

Just as Jews/Israelis need to understand the Palestinians' trauma of the Nakba, Palestinians need to understand that Jews have our own painful history of persecution and displacement, and I am not just talking about Europe or the Holocaust here.

One group denying the other group's history and trauma is a barrier to peace. We need to acknowledge each other's pain if we are going to move forward together.

​

Can I also flip the question back to you? What is one thing you would like Jews in the diaspora to understand about Palestinians?

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u/Impressive-Collar834 Palestinian Sep 06 '24

Totally agree, I think Palestinians need to understand the long term history of the region and it's impact to Jews in general. One thing for example which I think is interesting is that my grandparents interacted with jews and even worked in the same place in Palestine, but not their children who became refugees in the Nakba in other countries no longer interact with jews, and all they know is what is happening to their people. I guess what I am trying to say is the barrier of interaction causes more of the same long term.

I would say as a Palestinian I would like for Jews in Diaspora to know is that partnership with Palestinians for a free palestine for all is the most likely path forward, even if it seems daunting today. Interaction and education and humanizing both people is critical in breaking the loop and finding justice and peace.

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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 05 '24

Unfortunately I do see some Palestinians believe that Jews control the world/all of capitalism/etc. and that's a dangerous antisemitic belief. But other than that, I think most Palestinians I meet already know we're all in this struggle to free Palestine together.

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u/Impressive-Collar834 Palestinian Sep 06 '24

i have heard things along those lines too. one other thing I am aware of now is in arabic they will often say jews (yahood) when they are talking about zionists so I will correct people now when I hear such things

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u/ShakeTheGatesOfHell Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

Did you ever get taught about the secular views of the Old Testament's origins? Like Sumerian mythology's influence on Biblical stories?

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u/magavte_lanata Jewish Anti-Zionist Sep 04 '24

I was taught this in an academic setting--more common in liberal Judaism.

1

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u/AlexandreAnne2000 Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

Okay this is a little random but I read a book recently about a patrilineal Jewish American man born in the 1910s in the US. I've always assumed his father wouldn't have raised him as Jewish since his mother was Christian and Reform and Reconstructionism weren't around  when he was born but is this necessarily true? The book was super vague about his Jewishness, and his views on religion on general, but he kinda was too and there's nothing on the internet. 

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u/specialistsets Non-denominational Sep 04 '24

Reform was around then but they did not officially accept patrilineal descent until the 1980s. Early 20th century America was a time of intense assimilation for Jews, and even more so for patrilineal Jews. Someone like this would likely have some elements of Jewish identity and culture, but it is highly unlikely they were part of a religious community.

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u/AlexandreAnne2000 Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

Thanks for answering, that's what I assumed.

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u/hereiam1ceagain Non-Jewish Ally Sep 04 '24

How are you all holding up this week?

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u/Impressive_Wall4186 Reform Sep 04 '24

Holding up great until I go on X, have decided to stay clear for a while. My feed is no longer pro Palestinian or Israel-Gaza, it’s just Islamophobia and antisemitism.

1

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u/valonianfool Anti-Zionist Sep 07 '24

I'm interested in seeing an anti-zionist jewish perspective on the West Bank settlements-they're the most visible example of Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, to the point that people who aren't very well-informed of the history of the zionist project or any other issue faced by Palestinians with or without Israeli citizenship can point to the WB settlements as something clearly unethical, but can't give an extensive explanation for why.

I'm aware that the settlements effectively creates barriers between Palestinian villages and neighborhoods in the WB, separating them from each other, that Palestinians in the WB have nearly all aspects of their life decided by Israel, yet do not get to vote in Israeli elections as they aren't considered citizens, when settlers are allowed to as they have Israeli citizenship.

Zionist apologists have used the Oslo Accords to justify the settlements and Israel's expansion into the WB, claiming Palestinians themselves have given their approval and that it legitimizes the settlements, which I don't buy.