r/JewsOfConscience • u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist • Aug 22 '24
News The DNC refused to allow any Palestinians to speak at the convention. Uncommitted delegate Abbas Alawieh called a Democratic Party contact to plead his case again, "The Palestinian children need to be heard." At least 16,480 Palestinian children have been killed by the IDF since 10/7.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 22 '24
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
So, I think this is the unfortunate conclusion of Harris riding that wave of coconut-pilled, vibes based popularity with no real platform. She's run some numbers, and decided that the Muslim/Arab/general anti-war vote is not actually big enough to threaten her election, and so it's not necessary to risk her lobbying money by taking any stance.
To be quite honest, I hope she loses on principle for what this regime has done to Gaza. If Trump had done half the stuff Biden had to beef up police and military funding, clamp down inhumanely on the border, commit genocide, and be more or less on the verge of war with Iran, liberals would at least pretend to care, and might mobilize into strikes or civil disobedience. Under a Democrat, they don't.
You can actually just look at the protest size difference at the DNC vs the march on Washington a while back - the DNC one was tiny in comparison and outnumbered by cops. People just no longer care about genocide if they think it's in an electable enough form.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 22 '24
America is the Empire in Star Wars.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
I can't believe this radicalized young man from a desert climate, whose family died in an unfortunate stormtrooper incident (the stormtroopers are investigating this) has joined an illegal group for training! And even broken out a notorious high-ranking dissident from custody, before committing violent acts of terrorism against the Death Star, which contained civilians! The Empire has flaws, but Palpatine is stepping down in favour of a woman Sith soon, and she's said she "sympathizes with people protesting the use of force lightning as a torture method" which means she's a lesser evil and we need to support her-
Actually, I guess this is just how Mark Hamill sees the story. Lmao.
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u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 Sahist Aug 22 '24
People care more about what directly effects them the most. That is the nature of any issue for the most part.
Trump and his allies are a direct existential threat.
Iran and its proxies are indirect non-existential threat.
Any suffering going on outside of America will always be secondary in most American's eyes unless it has a direct effect on them. Anti-war sentiments against Veitnam grew because Americans were being drafted. As long as Israelis are the ones fighting, Americans won't mind footing the bill.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Oh, I'm well aware of how little Americans care about foreign policy, or Muslims and Arabs generally. I used to have a degree of optimism that perhaps, as a society, white Americans had moved a little bit beyond the dehumanization and hatred of the post 9/11 era - unfortunately that's not the case. It actually feels significantly worse now than it did then. This is not a surprise, just generally depressing.
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u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 Sahist Aug 22 '24
The apathy has definitely set in, but I wouldn't say it is worse than the immediate 9/11 era.
The information is out there and being seen by more people than ever before, which makes me hopeful. The problem is the disinformation from one side and the less informed on the other; but I would say people are catching on to this as well!
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Honestly, I think it's worse.
Everyone I know who wears a hijab at protests has had some kind of incident with being harassed or followed or feeling unsafe, I've straight up seen someone try to pull a hijab off a woman, and I had to intervene. Older Muslim folks are saying it's unprecedentedly bad. There were those cases in the US of that child in Chicago being murdered, two other kids nearly drowned to death, Palestinian-American students being shot while walking outside. And that's not even getting into the widespread employment discrimination and the associated culture of silence and intimidation.
And beyond that there's stuff like the UK race riots... I don't know. I was much younger for the post 9/11 period, but I remember how many "ahaha don't say that! You know the government's listening :)" dark jokes people would make, and how generally nervous and careful people were. But it feels like the level of socially acceptable Islamophobia had been rising steadily for a while, and has shot up so fast and gotten worse than that in the past 10 months.
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u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 Sahist Aug 22 '24
That's definitely understandable. I might have been a bit older than you during post 9/11. Middle Eastern and South Asian people in general were all demonized during that time by every part of society. People were literally friends one day and enemies the next (the worst resulting in violence like that of the murdered Palestinian child in chicago). It also created a lot of internalized self-hate from what I have heard as well. All that being said, it just seems like there is generally more out-group solidarity than before. Though it's still hard, it just isn't as lonely.
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u/ArmyOfMemories Jewish Anti-Zionist Aug 22 '24
America is partners with Israel in the genocide of the Palestinian people.
So anyone who thinks this doesn't involve us is fucking clueless.
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u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 Sahist Aug 22 '24
I never said it doesn't involve Americans, I said it doesn't affect Americans directly, hence why there isn't enough political will for change. If there was enough will for change, we wouldn't be texting about this right now. If you want to make change, you have to get more Americans on your side, and that requires more than just being moral.
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u/zerocerosun Reform Convert - Jew of Color Aug 22 '24
An election cycle ago I was still somehow hopeful that accelerationism wasn't the only way forward for this stupid country, but at this point... ugh.
Libs couldn't care less what the president does if he's a Democrat. Kids in cages? Increased police funding? Deploying the national guard to NYC subways? Union busting? Caving on transgender rights? Failing to uphold a single campaign promise - student loan debt, single payer healthcare, Roe v Wade enshrined in law, anything??
Zilch. Nada. And they still insist that a Trump presidency would be the end of the fucking world in comparison - for the love of God, how different can it be anymore?
I live in a border town and have many undocumented folks in my community. I've tried so many talking to libs close to me about how despicable Biden has been about the border - all I get is "BUT TRUMP BUT TRUMP BUT TRUMP". It's just a game to them. Winning is what's important, nothing else.
I'm tired. This country fucking sucks. Get me out of here, man.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 22 '24
I don’t hope she loses on principle. A Trump presidency would be worse for Palestinians and Americans. Fatally so. If this sank her candidacy, it would be a Pyrrhic victory.
I hope she wins and exceeds expectations.
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u/DazzJuggernaut Aug 22 '24
If you're not willing to hold them accountable, then they have no incentive to do better.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 23 '24
They could have some relevant personal principles motivating them. I think that’s our best hope. I don’t expect that the pro-Palestine movement will ever win the incentives battle against the pro-Israel movement.
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u/rumagin Aug 22 '24
Also how could it be worse for the Palestinians? I see how it could be worse for the rest of us. But for the Palestinians that's bullshit, it can't be worse.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 22 '24
You don’t see a difference between rebuilding Gaza and treating it as valuable beachfront property a la Jared Kushner?
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Have the Democrats taken any action to stop the destruction, let alone rebuild anything?
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 22 '24
So just to be clear, I’m not showering praise on the Democratic Party. I do think it’s better than Trump. When Biden threatened to stop supplying bombs, that was woefully inadequate and also better than we’d ever get from Trump.
When the Democratic Party denies a speaking slot to Palestinian Americans, it’s bullshit, and it’s also better than demonizing pro-Palestinian activists as “thugs” and “jihadist sympathizers” who should be deported.
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u/snarkitall Aug 24 '24
Did Biden undo anything significant regarding Palestine that Trump did while in office?
If it's the same actions just with nicer words, I really don't see how it is any better. And anyway I've heard plenty of nice white liberals complaining about "these people" bringing "their issues" over here and wishing they'd go away. They're saying the same thing, just less aggressively.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 24 '24
I don’t remember what Trump did besides move the embassy and appoint Jared to say Gaza would be valuable waterfront property.
Biden sanctioned a few violent West Bank settlers. This is a crack in the idea of complete Israeli impunity. Did Trump ever hold Israel accountable for any settler violence?
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Is it? It has not actually stopped a single shipment of arms to Israel yet. The other stuff is just talk.
This is the problem. They do stuff that's - let's say 90% as bad as the Republicans. I'll give them credit for not actively inciting the Proud Boys into lynch mobs I guess. But then they act sad and sympathetic, and white people react to this as if it actually reduced the amount of damage they've done. So it goes like this:
Republicans are 100% bad: Liberals freak out, organize, nonstop media coverage and awareness, active efforts to stop what's happening. There is a possibility for change.
Democrats are 90% bad, 50% sad and repentant: Liberals start putting coconut emojis in their bio, circle the wagons, and call any criticism of their candidate fascism. And nothing actually changes.
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u/Klutzy-Pool-1802 Ashkenazi, atheist, postZ Aug 22 '24
I don’t see things so black and white as you. But that’s probably a personality thing, I don’t think we’re going to convince each other of anything.
Take abortion. Republicans got the upper hand, killed Roe. Liberals started freaking out and organizing. Will this result in better abortion access than if we’d just elected Democrats in the first place? I don’t think so. I don’t see any greater potential for change just because Republicans freaked out liberals.
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u/Efficient-Profit9611 Aug 22 '24
If you hope Kamala loses, just wait until you see what the other side thinks of Palestinians.
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u/Artistic-Vanilla-899 Non-Jewish Ally Aug 26 '24
As a former American liberal lifelong Democrat, I feel betrayed by the DNC, supposed liberal institutions, and liberal policy makers. Trump is horrendous, but m "Don't let that other guy back in" is hardly a viable political position. Harris's soeech was full of lies and generalizations. Honestly, she's full of human fecal matter and so fake. What happens if Trump wins again is not as scary as what Democratic policy makers have already done - perpetuating genocide, overthrowing foreign governments, allowing a foreign government to restrict our criticism of it. They can't whitewash, pinkwash, or Orangewash in the case of Trump what they have done and lie about what they will do.
I think i may choose to exercise my right not to vote and to protest and resist, which I'm doing now.
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u/TheUnknownNut22 Anti-Zionist Aug 22 '24
I simply cannot vote in November. I will not be made to chose between fascism and genocide.
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u/essenceofnutmeg Aug 22 '24
Please consider voting for your local representatives and ballot measures.
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u/Sailor_Heliotrope Aug 22 '24
Same. This is the first election I’ve intentionally sat out. I don’t take that decision lightly, but I just can’t bring myself to cast a vote in good conscience.
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u/essenceofnutmeg Aug 22 '24
Understandable, but please consider submitting your vote for your local representatives and ballot measures.
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u/ray-the-they Ashkenazi Aug 22 '24
The unfortunate reality is that we are in a position of picking our enemy for the next four years.
We know one enemy has announced that they will let Israel “finish the job”. The other has given, at least, lip service to a ceasefire and I think is arranging a meeting with Uncommitted last I checked.
One of them is objectively going to be easier to fight.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
If you have a source on her wanting to meet with Uncommitted, I'd be curious to see it.
And no, the Democrats have not shown any sign of preventing Israel from "finishing the job." By some estimates, nearly 10% of Gaza's population has been killed already, or is going to die from long term health effects. Do you understand how insane that is, for less than a year? Polio is actively spreading, and they US has shown no signs of pressuring Isrsel - even Israeli media was saying that Blinken himself sabotaged the talks last time he went. Gaza does not have time for Harris to fish around and find her conscience after being sworn in.
The Democrats are doing the exact same stuff as Trump would have, but while making a sad face about it - which unfortunately cons white moderates into giving up and going to sleep. Look at how pitifully small the DNC protest was in comparison to others in the last several months. If Harris wins, she has no incentive to change anything, and most people will shut off and stop caring.
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u/ray-the-they Ashkenazi Aug 22 '24 edited Aug 22 '24
Here are 3. And they are not “wanting” to meet. They are “have met”.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/8/9/layla_elabed_kamala_harris_palestine_policy
As I said earlier this is about picking who we are fighting on this matter. Literally look at their relationships to Netanyahu and tell me which one is gonna be more useful to us. It’s not the one beaming all buddy-buddy with him.
I beg you to get out of the nihilist bubble of hopelessness that pops up here time and again.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Ok. So these articles are from several days ago, I read the coverage then too. People protested her event, she said the classic girlboss line of "I'm speaking," to shut up Muslim women from complaining about the genocide, sparking feminist t-shirts all over America.
Then she mildly softened her tone and had a brief chat with Uncommitted while passing by, in which she said she'd be open to a longer meeting, but then her team immediately clarified that she would not support an arms embargo. And then she refused to allow a Palestinian-American speaker at the DNC at all, despite that being an extremely small demand.
This does not really convince me that she's doing anything besides trying to jingle enough keys in the hopes that Muslim and Arab voters forget what her regime has done to Gaza.
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u/ray-the-they Ashkenazi Aug 22 '24
I mean go ahead and do whatever you want to do. I think we stand a better chance at fighting her than fighting the other guy who wants to deport American citizens for protesting.
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u/SeaSlugFriend Aug 22 '24
There’s no scenario where neither Trump nor Harris win. It’s going to be one or the other so we need to figure out which of those two would be easiest/most feasible to force to end support of israel . Of course neither are at that point where they would, but I think if Harris and Walz win it would be much more possible to get them to do it than if Trump and Vance do. I like what Ray-the-they said where basically you can think of it less as voting for someone you like more and think of it as choosing who to be up against in this fight. Of course if they get into office there’s gonna need to be massive pressure on them to stop funding the genocide, but I think if it’s them rather than trump and vance the pressure has a greater chance of working.
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u/classyfemme Jewish Aug 22 '24
I’m sorry but most intelligent folks aren’t single issue voters. We aren’t only voting based on one specific area of foreign policy. We have shit here at home we need taken care of, and a Harris/Walz ticket is what will help the most US citizens, not Trump. We have to take care of our own first, then other countries/peoples second as we are able. We pay taxes for our government to help ourselves. The DNC is a rally to get people to vote more than a platform to air grievances regarding foreign wars. At the end of the day, the war is between Israel and Palestine - those are the two peoples that have to settle negotiations. USA might help mediate, but we aren’t the negotiating parties, we aren’t at war, and we aren’t the decision makers at the table regarding any ceasefire deals.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Israel would stop the war tomorrow if the US stopped sending arms. The US repeatedly blocked every UN resolution with a chance of actually forcing a ceasefire. The US is credibly reported to have intelligence operations directly assisting the IDF. Israel itself has said it relies on the US.
But you know all that, I don't think you're stupid. I'd like to ask you if you know any Palestinians, and if you'd be willing to say this to their face, just as you said it now.
Anyway! With white allies like these, who even needs enemies. One side will gleefully commit genocide and boost up domestic hate crimes to an insane level - the other side will say "hm, kind of sad, but.... not my problem? That's your single issue and not mine. Thoughts and prayers," and move along.
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u/classyfemme Jewish Aug 22 '24
Yes I do know Palestinians and yes I would say this. We have to handle our country first. That’s why we pay taxes.
Also it’s foolish to think of Israel didn’t buy arms from America that they wouldn’t be able to buy them elsewhere. You give the US too much credit.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
Ok! I'm glad you're at least committed to America First strongly enough that you'd be willing to say that to a genocide victim's face. I think you should probably tell them this, so that they have full information on who they're friends with.
Also no, Israel would not be able to just buy arms from somewhere else at the drop of a hat, that's not how supply chains work, or even how Israel describes its relationship with the US. But I don't think that matters to you regardless, since it's marginal single issue, so I'll leave it at that.
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u/classyfemme Jewish Aug 22 '24
You must have missed my other reply where I pointed out that Israel already buys arms from other countries, and the US isn’t even the biggest supplier - Germany is.
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u/bearoscuro Non-Jewish Ally Aug 22 '24
This is literally not true. It took me about 2 minutes to google. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68737412
Anyway, I'm not interested in litigating this further with you. I don't think you have an interest in either the facts, or actual investment in the "single issue," as you describe it. Please go tell your Palestinian friends your opinion so that they know what your stance is. ✌
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u/BrokenShanteer Communist Palestinian 🇵🇸 Sep 02 '24
Bruh no lol ,American imperialism is the number one enemy of us the Palestinian people and we know well Israel would crumble without their help
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u/sarim25 Aug 22 '24
Problem is with that logic, you won't hold politicians accountable for their promises or actions. The last 3 elections had the same pattern, where DNC platform was "we aren't Republican" and not based on actually meaningful policies.
Sees student loans, gun laws, or even abortion rights. Nothing was done to improve them in the last 4 years, just empty talk.
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u/classyfemme Jewish Aug 22 '24
Student loan progress was shut down by the Supreme Court. Gun laws and abortion rights are passed by Congress not the president. President can influence as much as possible, but isn’t the voting power.
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u/snarkitall Aug 24 '24
It's always the same fucking thing - a Dem is president, " oh we don't have control of Congress" - a republican is president, "oh, we don't have the president"
It's always just fucking excuses for why they can't ever actually do anything. The Dems could have significantly changed the supreme Court and voting rights a decade ago. They could have codified roe v wade.
We have the same thing happen in Canada. Trudeau promised significant voter reform. Then he won on the messed up system and we never heard another peep out of him about it. Now we're going to get a sadder, dumpier version of Trump as our next PM and it's Trudeau's fault.
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u/rumagin Aug 22 '24
The US is actively supporting a genocide and youre saying they somehow not involved and the war is between Israel and Palestine. There is no war and genocide without US suoport.
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u/classyfemme Jewish Aug 22 '24
That’s plainly not true. If Israel couldn’t get weapons from the US they’d find another supplier. Multiple countries send weapons to Israel, with Germany historically being the biggest supplier. https://www.reuters.com/world/who-are-israels-main-weapons-suppliers-who-has-halted-exports-2024-05-09/
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u/Sailor_Heliotrope Aug 22 '24
But you’re comparing millions to billions. The US provides billions of $ worth of weaponry, while Germany is in the lower millions. You can’t even compare the difference. The article you posted says 69% is from the US. Israel would absolutely not be able to sustain its violence without it.
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u/zerocerosun Reform Convert - Jew of Color Aug 22 '24
The United States is, with absolutely *zero* competition, the most feared and dangerous military power in the world. If the US said "no more genocide or you'll fucking get it," *basically everyone ever would listen.* This country - through our repeated and ongoing imperialism - has a chokehold on so much of the world - this genocide is only continuing as it does because we're allowing it to.
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Rabbi David Mivasair has a GoFundMe to help provide basis necessities for the Palestinians of Gaza. If it is within your means, this is the link:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-gaza-families-survive
Rabbi Mivasair writes:
Please consider signing this petition which calls for a ceasefire and arms embargo, started by Rabbi Brant Rosen of Tzedek Chicago.
https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/not-another-bomb-sign-on-letter?source=direct_link&referrer=group-jvp-2
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