Why did the Vikings establish what is now Dublin but never established what is now Belfast?

[u/Portal_Jumper125]

Dublin is a coastal city, but Belfast is on the shore of Belfast Lough and surely that would have been a nice location for Vikings to settle, I have read that the Vikings were present in and around Lough Neagh, Bangor, Strangford etc but why did they not hang around the Belfast Lough?

I have also read that in general Ulster suffered less from Viking activity in comparison to other places in Ireland but why was this?

[u/Professional_1981]

Belfast had a very different shoreline until the late Victorian period when what we see today was made from reclaimed land.

Dublin had the black pool, a deep, safe anchorage well up river from Dublin Bay that could be protected.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Professional_1981]

That's really interesting, so alot of the shoreline we see now in Belfast was actually underwater before the 1800s?

[u/Professional_1981 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

As a result a quay was constructed at the confluence of the Farset and Lagan rivers in the early 1600s. However, it was still significantly smaller than that of Carrickfergus, which was a bigger and more established port at the time.

But over the next century the Port continued to expand. Records show that by 1663 there were 29 vessels owned in the town with a total tonnage of 1,100 tonnes. Trade continued to grow throughout the century, and it became clear that effective governance was required.

Following an act of the Irish Parliament in 1785, a new body – the Corporation for Preserving and Improving the Port of Belfast – was constituted.

Better known as the Ballast Board, its primary objective was to develop solutions to restrictions caused by shallow water, bends in the channel approach and inadequate quays.

Work on straightening the river and constructing what would become known as the Victoria Channel began in 1839.

It was an immense engineering project. There's a BBC NI documentary that showed all the changes but I can't find any clips for you. As the section above from Belfast Port's own history website notes Carrickfergus was the more important port until the 1800s.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Professional_1981]

Carrickfergus I thought use to be the capital aswell at one stage

[u/GamingMunster → u/Portal_Jumper125]

That was far, far back, as it was the chief seat of the Earls of Ulster for several reasons e.g. natrual harbour, formidable castle, proximity to England. Though William Donn de Burgh held his seat at Greencastle for a time.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/GamingMunster]

Could it be argued that Carrickfergus is one of the oldest towns in Ireland?

[u/GamingMunster → u/Portal_Jumper125]

No I dont think so. It onyl became a place of real prominance during the Norman period. I would personally say that our first proto-towns wouldve emerged around large early Christain monastic sites such as Clonmacnoise.

[u/bigvalen → u/GamingMunster]

Did many of the towns founded as monastic settlements survive as cities ? I think there was one, on the north side of Dublin, that was there before the Norse settles on the south bank, near the black pool...but it's the only one I know. Clonmacnoise, Glendalough, etc. would have been pretty big, but didn't survive long term.

[u/blue_gandalf007 → u/bigvalen]

I'd assume the likes of Tara, Navan and Drogheda likely could be traced back to the oldest times. With droghedas location and proximity to Newgrange which is 5000 years old there would have been some sort of settlement there. Also the majority of Irish folk tales are from that boyne River area showing the history it has.

[u/bigvalen → u/blue_gandalf007]

Yeah, before the slaving raids of the 800s, there must have been some huge settlements around the Boyne.

[u/GamingMunster → u/bigvalen]

You answered it yourself pretty much, most didnt survive and others moved away from monastic sites being at their centre.

[u/tadcan → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Belfast was a large bog essentially, at one point it was sold for £5, in I think the 1600's for development.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/tadcan]

I thought the British built it after taking over Ulster

[u/tadcan → u/Portal_Jumper125]

If you are asking if things were built under direct British rule then the answer is yes and no. It was subcontracted to private individuals, companies, guilds, and consortiums who bought the rights to land and/or do business. This is the time of Mercantilism, the transitionary period between Feudalism and Capitalism. The king could sell the rights and have other people take the risk. For example the Apprentice boys of Derry were literal members of guilds who had the rights to do business in the city.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/tadcan]

So the British sold land to private companies/business people for them to do whatever they like with it

[u/tadcan → u/Portal_Jumper125]

They also gave land to families they liked, mostly nobles. The current Lord who owns Lough Neagh has it because it was given to an ancestor. There was generally a purpose to giving the land, like agriculture or building a city like Londonderry. In medieval times giving land and a noble title was the reward for taking hold of it and defending it against attack, collecting taxes for the crown. So in this period some land is given to loyal nobles, some is sold to new companies, or guilds had a charter, settlers would come in to work the land. As I said the Mercantilism phase was a transition from Feudalism to Capitalism so it's a mixture of both. If you were on good terms with King James you could pull something off, he still held a lot of power.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/tadcan]

It's really wild to me that one man who lives in England owns a large body of water on an island he probably hasn't even set foot on just because his ancestors stole it from other people

[u/Nurhaci1616 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Belfast was in many ways a pretty insignificant place prior to the industrial revolution: once that kicked off, it became prime real estate, due to coal.

Essentially, not all coal is created equal, and the best, cleanest burning and most energy efficient, coal is found mostly in Wales. Although Dublin and Derry were both more established ports that would be able to handle the commercial traffic, Belfast was physically much closer to Holyhead than either, reducing transportation fees on coal. This then made it an attractive place for people looking to establish factories, and that attracted more people looking for work, and so on; until, by the end of the 19th century, Belfast had developed into a wealthy industrial city and one of the major hubs of shipbuilding within the British Empire, and therefore the entire world at that point, with shipbuilding both directly encouraging the growth of industries like rope and linen, and indirectly others, like Whiskey.

All of this industrial development required things like reclaiming land, deepening the harbour and covering over waterways that were inconveniently placed. All of this massively impacted the shape of Belfast and its harbour today.

[u/shinmerk → u/Nurhaci1616]

On a map it wouldn’t look like Belfast is closer than Dublin to Holyhead?

[u/bigvalen → u/shinmerk]

Also, the tide into Belfast is a hoor when it's against you. Dublin was also not that navigable until the bull walls were built.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Nurhaci1616]

That's interesting

[u/DonQuigleone → u/Portal_Jumper125]

The same is also true of Dublin, though it's likely that Dublin's water system was more easily navigable as the river was quite wide.

[u/patiodev → u/Professional_1981]

Sandy Row used to be sandy!

[u/The_Little_Bollix]

The O'Neills basically. There's a reason the largest tract of land in Ireland still held by the native Irish up until the early 17th century was in Ulster. They were a formidable barrier for the Vikings when it came to where they could land and set up a colony. They tried, a few times, and failed.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/The_Little_Bollix]

Is there any books or online sites where you can read about the O'Neills vs the Norse

[u/Rabh → u/Portal_Jumper125]

This book covers it, the Norse who attempted to conquer and settle in Ulster were repeatedly wiped out by in Ulster by the Ui Neill.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Rabh]

Thanks!

[u/bigvalen → u/Rabh]

Nice one, thanks. Mary Valante's Vikings In Ireland is also a savage overview, and explains why Dublin grew, while Annagassan isn't there anymore (Norwegians in Dublin got their arses kicked and traded, the Danes in Annagassan turned to slaving and convinced the Meath kings to sell them 200,000 people over the course of the 800s...so there was no hinterland left).

[u/Express_Salamander_9 → u/The_Little_Bollix]

This is correct. The Oneils were so powerful they would unite clans to repel the outsiders.i listened to a great Irish history pod and the oneils were so interesting.

[u/GamingMunster → u/Express_Salamander_9]

If youre interesting in learning more about the O'Neills Turlough Luineach O'Neill is imo the most interesting of them. I'd highly recommend it.

[u/CDfm → u/Express_Salamander_9]

That's very different to the rest of Ireland.

[u/Express_Salamander_9 → u/CDfm]

How do you mean.

[u/CDfm → u/Express_Salamander_9]

It took until the Confederation of Kilkenny for any type of unified action.

The Gaelic Irish would normally be feuding with one another and would ally with their "enemies enemy " to get a local advantage. Their loyalty was to their sept and loyalty wasn't based on the feudal system.

Ulster was more unified.

[u/GoldGee → u/The_Little_Bollix]

The O'Neils came from a particularly barbaric and violent tribe - Cenél nEóghain.

I remember my history teacher saying the Normans didn't bother with the North because of them. John De Courcey had a go and succeeded.

Feel free to correct, above is mostly from memory.

[u/BobySandsCheseburger]

They attempted to conquer ulster several times but were pushed out

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/BobySandsCheseburger]

That's interesting, so Ulster was alot more difficult for them to try and take compared to Leinster?

[u/mccabe-99 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Ulster was always the most difficult province to conquer

It took a massive plantation for the British to finally achieve the feat, whilst they conquered Leinster and Munster with relative ease in comparison

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/mccabe-99]

What about Connacht, I thought Connacht was also difficult or not worth it to them since there's a quote "to hell or to Connacht"

[u/mccabe-99 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Connacht wasn't necessarily difficult, they deemed it not worthy of the effort due to the landscape and poor quality of land

Hence the term to hell or to Connacht from Cromwell

Where as, in comparison, they had tried on countless occasions to take Ulster and failed. And it wasn't really until Hugh O'Neill marched south during the 9 years war that they got a foot hold in Ulster with the 'flight of the earls' coming as a result

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/mccabe-99]

I always wondered what would have happened if the flight of the earls never happened

[u/BobySandsCheseburger → u/Portal_Jumper125]

They had some settlements around Lough Foyle but they were all burned and destroyed by the king of the Northern O'Neills in 860 or so and they never really regained a foothold in the North after that, just the occasional small raid

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/BobySandsCheseburger]

Are there any sources on this, I thought Donegal "Dún na nGall" was fort of the foreigners referring to the vikings

[u/BobySandsCheseburger → u/Portal_Jumper125]

The annals of ulster are usually the primary source material for this era, they're quite reliable

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/BobySandsCheseburger]

Thanks!

[u/exclaim_bot → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Thanks!

You're welcome!

[u/GamingMunster → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Sparse settlement, a hostile geography and militarised kingdoms to name but a few reasons.

[u/Prestigious_Key387]

The Ui Neill had a number of strong kings that led successful campaigns against many of the Norse and Danish settlements in Ulster.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Prestigious_Key387]

Sorry if this is silly to ask but I thought Ireland was mainly victim to Norwegian vikings, is this inaccurate?

[u/Prestigious_Key387 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Sure, especially when they first came. It was actually Danes that came first before being kicked out by the Norse, but I could have it backwards.

One of the first great Viking warlords to lay waste to much of Ireland was named Turgesius in the 840s. He plundered plenty of monasteries before being defeated by Ui Neill king Mael Sechnaill and being drowned to death in Loch Lene.

The Viking period lasted almost 300 years. By the middle of that period the Irish, like many of the victims of Viking raids, adjusted militarily. They adopted bows, armor, and brought larger forces to bear. Once the Vikings began to settle, the tables began to turn. Suddenly, the Irish could “surprise attack” the Vikings.

Ultimately the kingdoms in the south were weaker and that’s why we see permanent settlements like Dublin, Waterford, Wexford and Limerick in the southern half. The Ui Neill we’re relatively strong and successful in defending their lands.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Prestigious_Key387]

Were the Ui Neill the same ones who got their lands confiscated during the Ulster plantations?

[u/Electronic-Fun4146 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

After the vikings, Norman’s and everyone else failed - yes. Luck runs out sometimes

[u/Prestigious_Key387 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Those would’ve been the O’Neills, who were descended from the Ui Neill.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Prestigious_Key387]

When we see maps with Uí then a name is that a family clan that was passed down through generations similar to how the British, Spanish, Swedish etc royal families would be today?

[u/Prestigious_Key387 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Sometime after Brian Boru the Irish septs began to differentiate into the Irish clans that we know now. They started taking the O’ and Mac surnames after more recent ancestors. The O’Neill take their surname from one of the Ui Neill kings during the Viking age. But many clans in the North, such as the O’Donnells, are descended from the original Ui Neill that I mentioned previously

Edit: this particular part of Irish history is very confusing and I still don’t full understand it. But it’s a process that all clan-based people undergo; as their populations grow, they refine themselves by identifying with more recent ancestors.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Prestigious_Key387]

This is interesting

[u/conor34 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Uí is more or less the same as Ó or O’ and means ‘grandson of’ or ‘descended from’.
It’s actually a little bit more complicated than this but this covers most cases. Fun fact, Uí makes it into the top 10 in most common placenames but most people don’t notice it as it was mostly anglicised to y

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/conor34]

I thought Uí became Uíbh in place names

[u/conor34 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

It can also take that form Uí Ó Uíbh Placenames map

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/conor34]

Oh

[u/durthacht]

As others have said, the main obstacles for the Norse were the more challenging geography in Ulster and the strength of the Ui Neill.

Dublin, Waterford and Limerick were better harbours at the time, and all were built beside major rivers that facilitated trade with fertile lands in the interior. This meant the Norse could trade products from their network across Europe and the Middle East (mostly luxary goods like precious metals, wine and spices) with products from Ireland (mostly agricultural products, furs, and slaves unfortunately).

Aside from natural harbours, Ulster had fewer navigable rivers but more mountains and forests, so it was more difficult to move around.

The Ui Neill were the dominant political faction in the northern half of medieval Ireland, and had a lot of military success against the Norse from the 840s. The first major Irish victory was when the Norse king Turgesius was captured and killed, which largely led to a military stalemate. The Norse were limited to a handful of coastal settlements in the south and even less in Ulster, compared to contemporary England and France where they conquered vast swathes of territory. They achieved less success in Ireland, and by the late 900s they were largely subject to Irish overlords.

The Ui Neill were the most powerful dynasty in the northern half of medieval Ireland. They claimed descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages, a legendary warrior from late pre-Christian Ireland (he probably lived around 430). Niall's son Leogaire is named as the High King who granted St Patrick permission to preach Christianity in Ireland, and Niall was one of four sons descended from the even more legendary Conn of the Hundred Battles after whom the province of Connacht is named. Niall's descendants moved from modern Connacht to conquer and create kingdoms in modern western Ulster and expel the previous inhabitants eastward, while other descendants conquered kingdoms in modern Meath & Westmeath expelling the previous inhabitants further south.

The Northern Ui Neill were based mostly around modern Tyrone and largely persisted until the defeat of Hugh O'Neill in the Nine Years War in 1603. The Southern Ui Neill lost most their power and influence after the 1070s due to the O'Brien High Kings using divide and rule tactics to encourage conflict between different branches of the family. They lost what little power they had left to Hugh de Lacy, who became primary the local Norman lord, when they finally moved west to Connacht.

It should be noted that Ulster was always extremely difficult to conquer, not just for the Norse. Even Brian Boru barely achieved nominal submission from Ulster despite launching multiple unsuccessful military campaigns in the decade immediately before Clontarf. Likewise, other powerful dynasties regularly tried and failed to invade Ulster such as the Southern Ui Neill and both the O'Briens and O'Connors who were the two most powerful dynasties in the hundred years before the Norman conquest.

So Ulster has always been difficult to invade, either by external forces or other Irish armies, and that is mostly down to difficult geography and powerful local kingdoms.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/durthacht]

I was wondering were the Uí Neill based in Tyrone, Donegal, Derry and Fermanagh or did they have a presence in Antrim, Monaghan, Cavan, Down and Armagh aswell?

[u/durthacht → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Mostly Tyrone and Donegal for the Northern Ui Neill. They expelled the previous people of that area (the Cruithin) to east of the River Bann and settled the northwest themselves, while the Cruithin in eastern Ulster eventually became subject to the Dál nAraidi who mostly faced eastwards to the Hebrides, Highlands, Strathclyde and Dal Riata.

The Ui Neill had a lot of influence in Armagh as they were the primary patrons of the cult of St Patrick. They wanted to associate themselves with him as he was the most prestigious Christian in known Irish history, and he was mostly active in their sphere of influence of the north and west. The Southern Ui Neill patronised St Brigid of Kildare so promoting different religious saints was part of the power struggle between the two Ui Neill branches and so Armagh was important as it was associated with St Patrick. Flann Sinna, as Southern Ui Neill king of Meath, allied with the Dublin Norse to attack Armagh in the 850s in an effort to undermine the prestige of the Northern Ui Neill and their High King (and his own stepfather) Áed Finlaith, which would in turn increase Flann's own power.

The Northern and Southern Ui Neill intermarried with local lords in Monaghan and Cavan to try to secure their allegiance in power struggles with the rival branch, so each had some influence there at various times, but their main power bases were Tyrone/Donegal and Meath/Westmeath respectively.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/durthacht]

What about Derry, I wonder what it looked like. Did the Uí Neill have towns of their own that were destroyed during the plantation?

[u/jimsdarkhistory]

Waterford was extremely strategic , 3 rivers flow into Waterford estuary which between them drain or access one fifth of Irelands land mass . If you control access to Waterford harbour you control access to a huge slice of countryside . The vikings knew this and so did the Norman's when they came over

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/jimsdarkhistory]

But I thought from Belfast they could have used the river lagan to get into the countryside aswell

[u/jimsdarkhistory → u/Portal_Jumper125]

The basin size of the River Suir on its own is 7 times bigger than the Lagan,

Other factors would be proximity to the continent and weather . Waterford in Norse was Vadroford meaning winter harbour . It close to the sea , it's extremely sheltered and dominates a lot of land

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/jimsdarkhistory]

I thought the Norse named it Veðrafjǫrðr or was that Wexford?

[u/jimsdarkhistory → u/Portal_Jumper125]

No your right I just have no idea how to do the Nordic script on Reddit

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/jimsdarkhistory]

Ah right

[u/Kyadagum_Dulgadee]

They hated the shit crisps and the way they say scone.

[u/RoughAccomplished200]

Christ lad, the vikings may have been savages but they still had some standards 😜

[u/milkyway556]

Too many prods up there for their liking

[u/Gortaleen → u/milkyway556]

Lol. Someone (not me) needs to create an ironic Irish history sub.

[u/p_epsiloneridani]

I think where Belfast sits was very marshy/boggy with lots of rivers crossing the land. Not really suitable for Viking settlement.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/p_epsiloneridani]

I always wondered what the area of Belfast was like before 1800

[u/Huge_Effort_5221 → u/Portal_Jumper125]

“Derry was a city when Belfast was still a swamp”.

[u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

"Strangford" is itself a Norse derived name, so there was at least some Viking activity in Ulster. There would also have been some crossover with the Norse-Gaels in the Hebrides as well.

But yes, they did not settle in the same numbers as they did in Dublin/Waterford/Cork etc - presumably due to greater resistence in Ulster from a stronger political set up of the Gaelic tribes.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Hour_Mastodon_9404]

I wonder if peaceful co-existence existed between the Irish tribes in Ulster and the Vikings, I head that the Irish had great crafts and stuff so would the Norse have traded with them

[u/Justa_Schmuck]

A lot of what we see in Belfast now to make it more usable as a harbour was done from the 18th century. It probably didnt interest the vikings 1200 years ago.

[u/A_StarshipTrooper]

Would anyone know the population numbers in Ulster prior to the Vikings arriving?

[u/Capital_Implement_43]

Great people .mum a MacSorely from Antrim Road. House blitzed out of existence WW2.

[u/Movie-goer]

Too cold probably. Why would you go north when you can go south? Southern ports were closer to the continent.

[u/Portal_Jumper125 → u/Movie-goer]

I'm sure the coasts of Antrim/Down were not as cold as those in Scotland, Norway and Iceland

[u/Movie-goer → u/Portal_Jumper125]

Scotland, Norway and Iceland you can't go any more south. Ireland you can.

[u/LoverOfMalbec]

Who knows. It's just one of those odd facts of history. Waterford, Wexford, Dublin etc were just ports they seemed to prioritise for whatever reasons.

[u/GamingMunster → u/LoverOfMalbec]

It was not "an odd fact of history" but came about because of circumstances within Ulster. The kingdom of Aileach (the Kinel Eoin and Kinel Connell) fastly resisted the Vikings. Here are some excerpts from the Annals of Ulster:

"Aed son of Niall inflicted a great rout on the Norse-Irish in Glenn Foichle (Glenelly Valley) and a vast number of them were slaugtered by him" - 856.

"Aed son of Niall plundered all the strongholds of the foreigners i.e. in the territory of the North, both in Cenél Eógain and Dál Araidi, and took away their heads, their flocks, and their herds from camp by battle (?). A victory was gained over them at Loch Febail and twelve score heads taken thereby" - 866, this coincided with a Viking expedition from Ireland to Pictland in the same year, which likely allowed Aileach to take this opportunity.

"A slaugter of the foreigners by the Conaille (a chiefdom in Louth) and Laigne's son, in whihc Amlaíb son of Ímar fell" - 896.

Ulster is also geographically more hostile, having vast areas of (what wouldve been at the time densely wooded) uplands, glens, and bogs. There is greater rainfall than the southeast and east, with temparatures also being cooler.

Moreover, it made less strategic sense, once the Vikings controlled the kingdom of York controlling easier held ports such as Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, etc. made greater sense as they were east-facing. Larne, the only prominent Viking site in Ulster, is more northward facing, towards Galloway and the Isles.