r/InternationalNews • u/UXUI75 • Mar 30 '24
Opinion/Analysis “Israel has entered the elite rank of pariah states.”
Said David Hearst the Editor-in-Chief of Middle East Eye
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Mar 31 '24
I have never been so sure that I will see a free Palestine.
I hope he's right.
Me, I've never been so sure that I will see Israel degenerate into a Middle Eastern tyranny nobody able to function somewhere else will want to live in, Jewish or Arab---a Jewish Syria or Iran.
The Israeli leadership claim Israel's choices are a Second Nakba or a Third Exile. They chose a Second Nakba. Israel's children will get a Third Exile.
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u/hydroxypcp Estonia Mar 31 '24
Israel is US's puppet/outpost, but even US has a line where they won't support the rogue state anymore. Israel is crossing it. When US/EU withdraw support, Israel is done for. Israel can't defeat Hamas, they have no chance against Hezbollah and others they have been antagonizing for years. Israel is toast
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u/Independentizo Mar 31 '24
I hope you are right. I simply want peace. I think peace is only achievable when Zionism is eradicated from the region and from its strangle hold on Judaism. I want to live in peace with everyone. It’s 2024 for fucks sake. And Israel is living in the Middle Ages with their brutality and callousness.
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u/hydroxypcp Estonia Mar 31 '24
and most Muslims in the region want peace too. Israel is a rabid dog that needs to be put down. Not Jews, but Israel as a state
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u/NinjaQuatro Mar 31 '24
The problem is how does the world force meaningful reform and ensure Israel makes an effort to rebuild the many communities they destroyed. I just don’t want to watch the world hastily throw together a poorly thought out plan that leads to even more bloodshed. I all know is that something has to change and the risk is most likely worth it.
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u/hydroxypcp Estonia Mar 31 '24
it starts with asking Palestinians who are the indigenous people
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u/NinjaQuatro Mar 31 '24
It’s not that simple though. We know Israel is in the wrong and has a lot to answer for. We know Hamas also has a lot to answer for. Palestinians absolutely deserve a voice here and I don’t see a way it can be resolved without their direct involvement in talks/ negotiations. Once we are beyond that basic first step The problem comes down to determining specifics such as land distribution and how to do that in a way that doesn’t lead to unnecessary tension.
It’s a really delicate balancing act that is going to anger a lot of people even when done right. It’s would take a lot of money and consistent international support to ensure conflict doesn’t break out and even then I don’t think could all be avoided
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
What do you think the government structure for the current region should be?
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u/qe2eqe Mar 31 '24
Just a reminder that they blew up the USS Liberty during the 1967 surprise war on Egypt, and it didn't cross a line. Some of the investigations about how and why that happened are still classified.
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u/porky8686 Apr 01 '24
I don’t think there’s a line the US government won’t cross, but it’s election season and they realise how the people feel…. Once it’s over I’m sure they’ll go back to defending Israeli claims of self defence.
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u/GenericManBearPig Apr 01 '24
The Americans will always back Israel.
The two idiots running in the next election are both going to simp for Israel, no matter what they claim publicly.
AIPAC owns the president and congress, both parties.
The Christian evangelical and fundamentalist movements are rabidly pro Israel and have powerful lobbyists of their own.
Lunatics trying to kick start the rapture influence American foreign policy
Weapons manufacturers make bank off Israel’s wars.
The government donates billions to Israel with the condition that it can only be used to purchase American made weapons.
Thats American taxpayer money funding a genocide.
Now Israel is bombing Syria, they bombed the Iranian embassy, this has never been about Israel’s right to defend itself, this is Israel forcing a larger conflict and trying to drag the Americans into it with them.
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u/Tribalgeoff May 14 '24
The muslim population of the world which is 1.9 billion are now the enemies of Israel, USA and all the European allies. They will not respect them, so you can expect further radicalisation and terrorist attacks. And who will have caused this?
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u/Super-Base- Mar 31 '24
Gazans are also REFUGEES of Israel, the Israeli army is literally massacring people it forced off their land to begin with for not being Jewish then forcibly contained under total blockade in this territory of their creation.
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Mar 31 '24
Israel is a pariah state and its supporters are genocide supporters. Israel was founded specifically to ethnically cleanse and genocide Palestinians. Never forget that.
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u/Fit-Captain-Hero Mar 31 '24
Israelis are waiting for entire 2 billion Muslims to destroy them. I think their plan is working. They will have their wish granted soon.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
This is the truth.
I have never and I will never vote for Joe Biden or anyone else who tolerates, excuses, supports or cheerleads for genocide.
Everyone with a conscience must do the same.
The Green Party is on the ballot in nearly all 50 States, so no one can argue there isn't an alternative.
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u/Beezelbub_is_me Mar 31 '24
What’s horrifying here in Texas is the amount of people who condone this. White supremely through Ashkenazi Jews is an interesting thing to look in to.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Condone what, exactly?
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u/Beezelbub_is_me Mar 31 '24
Well most would call it genocide but some of my fellow Texans call it self defense.
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Mar 31 '24
I get what you re saying. The other commenter is probably tired from all the genocide apologia going on.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
I'm still not quite sure what you're getting at but I'm voting for the Green Party, which is the biggest party running on a "we won't supply or support genocide" platform. I'm continually astounded how people keep trying to justify it anyway.
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u/Beezelbub_is_me Mar 31 '24
I’m being sarcastic about how we are supporting genocide. I’d gladly support a third party. Who is on the ticket? I feel like it’s always a two party ticket and you have to pick the lesser of two evils.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
That's exactly what the two party system tells people. Sadly, most people believe them.
Look up the Green Party. See who's running. They're all basically Social Democrats. Whoever wins their nomination process gets my vote.
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Mar 31 '24
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u/Beezelbub_is_me Mar 31 '24
Really? How so?
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Mar 31 '24
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
I wont vote for him either. Not him, not trump. To hell with both of them. I've given my vote to a straight dem ticket for my whole life, and now I see that many of them are scoundrels and cant be trusted with that anymore. Say what you will of Biden, he's shown us the outrageous undemocratic rot at the core of the party. With immigration, in reproductive rights, with social justice, in international policy, in the UN. The Democratic party has let me down too many times to count. If they wont stand with me, then I wont stand with them either.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Precisely this. Now it's time to spread the word to everyone.
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u/PulteTheArsonist Mar 31 '24
If Trump gets in cos of pillocks like you you do realise everything will get worse?
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
LMAO as if the whole election rests on me!
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u/BPMData Mar 31 '24
The current situation is an open, unrestrained genocide of millions of people. "Worse" how?
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
Y'all would be rooting for the Japanese in World War 2.
All the same bullshit colonizer narrative could be used in the same way.
Everyone here wants a ceasefire so that the Hamas attack can happen again in 5 years and the situation repeats. No one here can actually articulate a solution besides the people with the courage to actually say what the reality of this thinking is, that Israel goes away and the Jews all leave the region.
It's a ceasefire for Israel only, and we all know that, no one will bat an eye when Hamas continues the war. And people here expect peace to be able to exist under these conditions. Insanity.
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u/AdditionalCollege165 Israel Mar 31 '24
Explain to me the morality of picking a party that doesn’t support genocide. If your vote was the determining factor, vote Green Party means Trump wins and vote Biden means Biden wins, would you really vote Green Party?
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Mar 31 '24
I'm glad you used the word morality there. If you know your vote will lead to more zionist violence (and a vote for Biden will, we know this), of the choices available to you,
- vote Biden
- vote trump
- vote third party
- not vote
which ones have the best chance to be moral choices? Could it not be possible that if Joe Biden and his funders had signal from the electorate that he wasnt going to win, he'd either change his course with Israel (in more than just words) or else that the party funders would bump him and get someone else?
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Mar 31 '24
To illustrate the morality of this situation, consider the classic gun-on-a lifeboat test, which is taught in many ethics classes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcKg7a3lNzw is sort of the case. You are on a lifeboat with too many people. Some old, some young, one pregnant, some women, some men. Shore is far away but you might make it. You have enough food to save most of them. You also have a gun hidden in your coat. What is the most ethical choice of what to do here?
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u/AdditionalCollege165 Israel Apr 01 '24
If you’re not taking expected value into account then you’re not thinking about it correctly. Just because the most moral outcome is option C doesn’t mean it’s most moral to vote option C if you can expect it to fail. So it comes down to just how likely you think not voting for Biden will get you the moral result. Personally I don’t think the chance is high at all
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
They call that consequentialism or Machiavellianism, and its the opposite of Kantianism. I'm not an expert and not insisting that I'm correct, but I took the same ethics classes many people here took in college. Id be curious to hear other opinions and what to do here with the choices at hand.
Consequentialism somehow always ends up as the philosophy of the tyrants, supremacists, and war criminals. Nietzsche loved the idea, and it became the basis for nazi philosophy. Kantianism is the basis for a basic definition of fundamental human rights.
If you follow the idea that humans deserve some basic rights, our voting in a system where both Trump and Biden will kill innocents in order for us to have an easier time of it in domestic politics under Biden vs Trump is unethical. It amounts to trading other peoples lives for our convenience.
The only ethical path is to force Biden to commit to a better outcome using what pressure we have, or else allow trump to win and fight him every step of the way. Trump and Bidens support of genocide is our problem to solve, not the Palestinian civilians. They have their hands full already, and its on us to remove the support for genocide, or else what kind of people are we?
So how do we pressure Biden to be better. There is no way to pressure trump. After the vote both Biden and trump wont need the voters for anything anymore, and will do whatever he wants. Its not a great situation, but supporting genocide seems like it needs to be explicitely and loudly unsupported.
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u/AdditionalCollege165 Israel Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
I never said the vote would be based on domestic politics. It’s based on projected lives lost in Palestine.
Isn’t the whole issue with Kant that not everyone behaves rationally? If everyone was on the same page then this wouldn’t be a dilemma. It’s about making the optimal choice when people are sabotaging the situation. Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to Kant it seems like if there’s a .001% chance that a protest vote will change the situation, then since that’s your only moral path, you must protest vote. Meanwhile in reality what has actually happened is an even more genocide-enabling candidate has been elected. So who are you helping here by maintaining this philosophy?
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Apr 02 '24
I dont know that you can conclude that trump would be even more genocidal. Biden is all in.
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u/AdditionalCollege165 Israel Apr 02 '24
Biden may pull back when things get worse, and it’s especially necessary for the timeline after the war is over. I’d find it hard to believe that Trump will.
But I’m still curious for you to answer my question. It wasn’t rhetorical
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u/Master-Piccolo-4588 Mar 31 '24
You think Trump would act differently. Better expect to be even more supportive to Israel to a much much higher drehte than Biden.
But I get your point. You can only choose between two worse and worst.
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Mar 31 '24
I suppose. But the only other person aside from Biden with any realistic chance of winning the presidential election is Donald Trump, who is likely to give Bibi a far freer hand in Israel's near abroad than Biden is still willing to.
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u/Adventurous_Aerie_79 Mar 31 '24
I suppose thatd be true if you believe Biden's theatrical pushback. This is the same Biden who has claimed with a straight face that his bill was "blocked" by the senate parliamentarian, right.
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u/FriendlyGuitard Mar 31 '24
That's the problem with having a two party system. The lesser evil is a vicious circle that leads to more evil, not less.
At some point you get people to just not commit anymore. OK, that's weird than parent red line is on Israel, where US support is basically consistent for decades. But that's the end of process, not the beginning. That's like being forced to play the Trolley Dilemma over and over again - at some point you just give up. You reach the point you don't want any blood on your hand, not just less.
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u/lokilivewire Australia Mar 31 '24
"Trolley dilemma"?
Can you briefly explain pls? I'm Australian, not familiar with this term.
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u/FriendlyGuitard Mar 31 '24
The relevant quote to the situation here would be
An alternative viewpoint is that since moral wrongs are already in place in the situation, moving to another track constitutes a participation in the moral wrong, making one partially responsible for the death when otherwise no one would be responsible.
That can be exacerbated if you think it is a false dilemma, i.e. the people on the second rail are not there by accident but by design by an immoral entity.
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u/lokilivewire Australia Mar 31 '24
Very familiar with this principle. Never heard it referred to that way. Thanks for explaining.
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u/Nepalus Mar 31 '24
Choosing not to participate when you realistically can determine that Trump would make things objectively worse is still choosing to not act in the best interest of the Palestinians.
It's like watching someone about to fall and you could choose to kick a mattress under them or toss them a pillow. But instead of doing that you let them fall and hit hard ground because you don't like the people manufacturing the mattresses or pillows.
To the person who is falling, there is an objectively better choice, even if you find having to make that choice detestable. Life sucks and we die.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
It is not my job to singlehandedly change the entire structure of the American political system. All I can do is register my preferences and I'm doing exactly that by voting for the party that best represents my interests.
I urge all Americans to do the same.
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Mar 31 '24
You could vote against the guy who would be much worse on this issue. That IS an option.
And it's the option you would take if you cared about these people, rather than wanting to "register your preferences" for your own sake. The people of Gaza will starve, but at least you will feel heard, right?
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
But lesser of two evils voting is precisely what got us here in the first place.
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Mar 31 '24
No it's not. It's more than a third of people choosing not to vote, with the majority of the non voters being younger and more left wing.
People refusing to vote and then complaining their voices aren't getting heard. That is how we got here.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Once again, the best a Democrat can do is, "BUT TRUMP!!!!" then they're not a party that can be taken seriously in terms of fighting for the interests of average Americans.
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u/Nepalus Mar 31 '24
I'm sure the people of Palestine will find your brave choice endearing when Trump is putting boots on the ground in Gaza.
Hate the system all you want, it doesn't make you a hero to avoid choosing the lesser of two evils because of your values. Arguably it's basically giving Trump a higher possibility of victory and therefore a higher possibility that Trump will, in his words, "finish the job".
But I'm sure everything will be fine. It's not like the last time he got elected no one thought it would happen, nothing bad ever came of those 4 years right? Right?
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
Single-handedly? Voting to preserve democracy is absolutely a collective effort that is all of our responsibility.
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u/lokilivewire Australia Mar 31 '24
I'm not American, but that is/was my fear too. But the orange baby doesn't have a lot of patience. Several times now he's said (openly) Netanyahu needs to get back to peace.
I don't have any faith in Trump, but fact is stranger than fiction. He may just surprise us all. (Not that I'm holding my breath)
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u/Nepalus Mar 31 '24
The Green Party is on the ballot in nearly all 50 States, so no one can argue there isn't an alternative.
Let's say your objective is purely to benefit the people of Palestine. That's it, nothing else.
You have two options in front of you, realistically.
- You vote for Biden, you've made Biden's chances for victory higher.
- You don't vote for Biden, you've made Trumps chances for victory higher.
That's the cold hard reality. Trump would raze Palestine to the ground and piss on the ashes, and while you may want Biden to do more to help, and don't find him worthy of your vote, don't delude yourself into thinking you're doing anything else but giving Trump a better chance at victory.
Because if you really believe this:
I have never and I will never vote for Joe Biden or anyone else who tolerates, excuses, supports or cheerleads for genocide.
Then you'll vote for Biden. Because at the end of the day, not voting for Biden essentially means you're choosing to give the greater evil a better chance at winning. Which in a world where there's only a lesser evil and a greater evil on the ballot, is tantamount to supporting a greater level of harm towards the Palestinians.
If you want a third party, you need to start smaller. You're not going to get anyone elected to President outside the two party system on a whim. It would take decades of planning, billions of dollars, and fighting an entrenched system of unfathomable inertia in order to achieve.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
I've never been told how to vote so much by a "Democratic" society.
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u/Nepalus Mar 31 '24
If you want Trump to win because you're petty that's fine too. Just don't pretend you're a brave revolutionary for not voting Biden.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Once again, if the best a Democrat can do is, "BUT TRUMP!!!!" then they're not a party that can be taken seriously in terms of fighting for the interests of average Americans. And I'm not voting for them unless they do.
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u/RevolutionaryWorth21 Mar 31 '24
What a bunch of hogwash. You really think we have a democracy under Biden? What we have is a corporatocracy either way, with our foreign policy essentially the same with either party.
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u/Nepalus Mar 31 '24
If you think the foreign policies of Biden and Trump are "essentially the same" I think you need to re-watch some speeches...
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
How do you expect to elect politicians that care about genocide outside of a democracy? Because that’s what’s at stake. Vote out people like Biden, but the GOP absolutely needs to be punished for putting us on the brink of authoritarianism, so that we CAN vote out the Bidens of the country without destroying it.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
That's not what's at stake.
But you make up whatever excuse you need to "justify" voting for genocide.
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
Of course it is. You’d have to be living under a rock to think otherwise. It’s been explicitly told to you in a hundred different ways. Make whatever excuse you need to usher in authoritarianism, but it just doesn’t hold water. Whatever goals you want from your government are impossible without a substantive democracy.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Yes yes yes I've been "told" and that's exactly the problem; no one gets to tell me how to vote. No one has any right to demand it. Yet here you are, doing exactly that.
The Democrats gave up asking for, let alone earning our votes long ago, in favor of "BUT REPUBLICANS!!!!" That's just the bankruptcy of ideas.
I WILL NOT VOTE FOR GENOCIDE. You can do what you want.
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
Oh boy… you’re being told that democracy is at stake by the people who want to take it away.. that have been doing so while telling you about it.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Any excuse you need to feel better about voting for those committing genocide.
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
lol whatever you need to usher whatever conservative fantasy you have to destroy democracy
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
LMAO
That's pretty weak sauce in the face of being held accountable for VOTING FOR GENOCIDE.
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
Where do you think this is going? I’ve already responded to this. Whatever goals you want from your government are impossible outside of a democracy.
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u/NoCeleryStanding Mar 31 '24
This guy is a tankie masquerading as a democrat don't bother
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
Just because you have no answers doesn't mean no one else does.
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u/NoCeleryStanding Mar 31 '24
Nobody cares what tankies think they are completely irrelevant in American politics
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u/LASpleen Mar 31 '24
What one thing has Biden done to protect democracy while in office?
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u/farmerjoee Mar 31 '24
By participating in it and not threatening its end for one. I think you’re misunderstanding my point. This isn’t a pro Biden thing. It’s a preserve democracy so voting out status quo politicians doesn’t destroy the country thing.
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u/OrenoKachida2 Apr 01 '24
Typical shitlib who is impressed by the bare minimum
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u/farmerjoee Apr 01 '24
Impressed? I want to be able to vote out people like Biden without threatening democracy. The only candidates conservatives can give us are fascists. I've said this of course, so I'm not sure what the problem is.
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u/OrenoKachida2 Apr 01 '24
And the only candidates Democrats can give us are useless and corrupt shitlibs.
We don’t have much of a democracy if these are the two choices we have. This isn’t something that should be normalized
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u/farmerjoee Apr 01 '24
Indeed, which is why you start with the candidates that want to take it away. It’s not a complicated choice.
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Mar 31 '24
“A Rubicon has been crossed.” - That hit hard. I expect every one of these soldiers and their officers will be tracked, and brought to justice. Israeli’s will never be welcomed anywhere in the world, ever again.
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u/Independentizo Mar 31 '24
I hope so but I’m a little more tempered. I think Israel will devolve into a state of war and isolated in its brutality. Their isolation will drive further atrocities. And that’s the biggest concern. These bloodthirsty soldiers now have a taste of the blood of Palestinians and of Arabs and they’ll crave it. And this is what is most dangerous, not that the world isolates them, but that these soldiers and officers will not allow themselves to stop, and won’t allow themselves to be brought to justice.
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u/Weedobag Apr 01 '24
Muslim world isnt whole world, so things will become normal soon
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Apr 01 '24
While the islamaphobia comes thru, this isn’t about religion.
From Latin America to Africa, to Middle East…countries across the globe that have had their democracies overthrown, resources looted, land arbitrarily divided or taken, and been threatened for decades have now grown up, and are fed up. This is demographics and desperation driven. Israel is not only part and parcel of imperialist spear, it behaved as the worst actor of them all, committing atrocities for 75 years in the longest running brutal occupation. So…NO…things will never go back to normal, especially not for Israel.
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u/Weedobag Apr 01 '24
Ahah what a story Also there's nothing bad in islamaphobia, cause it's not phobia it reasonable concern
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Apr 01 '24
The ‘Story’ is true and YES Islamophobia (fear of an entire faith) is bad. Replace Islam with Christianity/Judaism and any reasonable person would agree.
Your history of comments is part of organized Zionist propaganda to spread misinformation, and link Islam and Middle East with all things negative. This is not about religion, it’s about a bully apartheid state that didn’t know when to stop, and will soon be taught a lesson in consequences of over reaching.
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u/Tribalgeoff May 14 '24
Israel's state secret police; Mossad forsaw these events by a decade and has actively groomed the political elite of Europe. The US government admin is chock full of Jewish people. It's like a coup.
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u/JonEngelePhotography Mar 31 '24
Damn, that was powerful. The world is waking up. Slowly, no question about that - western propaganda is a powerful thing - but you can feel the tide turning bit by bit. The scale of it all. The openness. It’s seeping into the world conscious collective. And the world will not forget when this is over. Israel truly has shown us how low humanity is capable of going still
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Mar 31 '24
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u/DirtyOldTrucker68 Mar 31 '24
I think anyone who says that nothing justifies Oct 7th really doesn’t understand what those people went through just since 2000. 10000 people killed before October 7th, and a host of other things.
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
For context, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and killed ~4000 Americans, mostly soldiers.
In response America killed about 1,000,000 Japanese soldiers and 1,000,000 Civilians (if Japan hadn't surrendered this ratio would have started to lean more and more into civilians as America only had the ability to bomb the Japanese mainland at the end of the war) and destroyed the ruling party and entire system of government for Japan, allowing them to only keep a ceremonial emperor position. This only stopped because they surrendered, without a surrender, this would have continued indefinitely.
Japan then lived under occupation for 7 years, and US troops are still stationed there to this day.
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Apr 01 '24
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
War is not about revenge, it's about removing the threat.
There is no number of dead people that Israel will just be like "oh job done that was what we were here for"
They aren't trying to reach some "revenge threshold" and then stop.
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Apr 01 '24
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
Then the region will not have peace. There will be no compromise possible with Hamas. As their goal is the removal of Israel.
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Mar 31 '24
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u/zamsamzam Mar 31 '24
David Hearst is always worth listening to. He is of the generation of British journalists that were superstars. His star certainly hasn't dimmed. He himself is Jewish.
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u/ttystikk Mar 31 '24
That's a man who understands what having moral convictions is all about. I applaud his willingness to speak publicly and hold the powerful to account.
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u/GuideMwit Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24
I condemed Hamas. So I’m ok to speak the rest.
Not only Israel, but now the Western World in general already took off their mask and have to swallow all previous attempts of shaping the world with “western value”. We’ve seen them greenlight Israel to commit war crime, supply them weapons, send warships to deter Hezbollah and Houti from attacking Israel - aka defending and allow the Israeli war crime to continue. All those human rights, war crime, oppression of people, genocide allegations against other countries are no longer hold any weight. Israel is already more evil than Russia. But the West just shrugged off. It just showed how two-faced they are.
The world will now laugh at those western societies since they already destroyed their last drop of legitimacy to lecture others. You can already see these shifts in the response. All those Muslim countries, Global South, African Union, they are no longer uphold the fake western value. Even India, who supposed to be the largest democratic country in the world, are already changing its position, becoming more autocratic.
The West shall remind themselves. Apart from 1 billion in Europe and anglosphere, there are 7 billions more people in this world, and we’re watching with curiosity.
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u/urmomaisjabbathehutt Mar 31 '24
IMHO
the "values" themselves aren't the issue under dispute
i.e. I claim that human rights, free expression and the righ to freely choose,
I claim that every human is born a free individual with the same equal rights under the law regardles of sex race and religion and
I claim that those rights are UNIVERSAL and must apply to every human being
the issue under dispute is the ruling class allowing bad actors to be bad actors because "allies" while claiming to uphold those rights themselves and using it as excuse to punish those they don't like (picking and choosing to whom international law applies)
rights that should apply universally to all
i.e. I don't make a difference if its Israel, the Iranians the US or India any one else for that matter
in my view all people deserve to be free individuals because we all are just born persons, if a government doesn't withhold those principles they are bad actors period.
and if "traditions, rules or religion practices or anything else" are used somewhere as excuse to contradict or prevent the application of these principles then change those traditions, we are not middle age serfs.
is our responsibility as people to spread those principles, to ensure social justice for all and to ensure it applies to everyone not just a selected privileged group
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u/GuideMwit Mar 31 '24
Totally agreed with you. The value are universal but people who are promoting them instead used it as tools to coerce, take control, bargain, undermine, or even declare war. They choose to shield their allies and swept everything under carpet and allow such atrocities to heppen before our eyes. That why I say the West just lost their legitimacy. And there will be more resistance in promoting or implementing such values since the rest of the world could not trust the West anymore.
Don’t you think it’s pathetic when we hear the world “democracy” attached to every sentences out of the ruling elites’ mouth when they made a TV broadcast. As if we need a reminder every now and then that we’re living in a better society cuz it is democratic. Otherwise we would begin thinking are we really in a better society?
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
So which states currently are you allowed to be a "free individual" and which states are you not. Then please evaluate where each of those regions are. And come back to me on if the "west" has any moral high ground any more.
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u/urmomaisjabbathehutt Apr 01 '24
do the place you live have laws against murder? yet nevertheless murder happens yes?
so no, nowhere exist a perfet perfect heaven, that doesn't mean that those rights should not be enshrined in the law as they are in international law and the UN and signed by all its constituents despite many blatantly breaking many of their statutes
and that's way they are called out for it
also it is a bit tiresome to try to paint those rights as a "Western thing"
that if started being in legal practice in "the West" earlier than in other places is incidental, should history happened differently it may had happen in some other region not considered "the West"
people's rights are considered universal because in every culture they had been calls from it, even in Islamic culture as early as the year 800 by renowned philosophers of their own
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u/PushforlibertyAlways Apr 01 '24
I find it ironic you say that the West can't lecture others. But what gives you the right to lecture the west? Please try to show me in what ways any other region of the world supports and upholds the average citizens rights more than western nations?
Where are the so called human values coming from any other state besides the west? What human values are being championed in South Africa? seems like it only is being used as a deflection from their failing economy and policies.
The west, and in particular the unites states, has created a global world order of economic prosperity that has enabled billions to come out of poverty and develop their nations across the planet.
You are so privileged you don't even comprehend the structure and order that the US has provided for you.
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u/GuideMwit Apr 02 '24
It’s truely ironic that the West “selectively” lectures those third world countries while “selectively” ignored or being lenient on atrocities committed by the so called allies, which eroded decades of trust and prestige built upon the Western value, especially in the information age when it is more difficult to sweep things under the rug.
On the other hands, each region/cultures values different things. If the West is really promoting freedom and right of self determination, why the West could not accept the value of other countries? For example, stability over political system (China) or using monkey to collect coconuts in Thailand.
No. What the West did is try to impose THEIR OWN thinking, using such universal values as leverage against other countries, impose sanctions or tariff on products, or destabilize other countries that is not within the West’s economic “sphere of influence” aka neo-imperialism in disguise.
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u/RevolutionaryWorth21 Mar 31 '24
Unfortunately, as long as Israel is supported by the U.S. it being a pariah state in the eyes of most of the world won't matter. They'll be able to continue to flaunt their disregard for international law and war crimes will be able to continue.
Everyone knows that the U.S. is equally complicit in these crimes, and the majority of the U.S. population wants the U.S. government to change course, and in that sense the U.S.is equally a pariah state on this issue. But in spite of this the slaughter continues month after month. I hope there are ultimately consequences for those responsible, but when it comes to the U.S. and those they want to protect there rarely are.
And wrt the change in tone of people like Biden and Schumer, I'll start to believe there's any substance behind it when weapons and diplomatic cover for Israel stop.
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u/wetbirds4 Mar 31 '24
The only thing they care about is money. That seems to be the only thing that will end it. Companies, business and universities are slowly starting to divest. I’m hoping it picks up speed until it’s just not worth it financially for them to continue.
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u/lokilivewire Australia Mar 31 '24
Israel is heading towards implosion, of that there can be no doubt. But as long as the US provides weapons and political cover, they will never feel the full force of being a pariah state.
Other nations around the world can only do so much. Things need to change in the US. The US needs to be subjected to BDS as much, if not more, than Israel.
We need to take away Israel's support, which is the US. How "we the people" achieve that is what stymies me.
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u/stoner_woodcrafter Mar 31 '24
I'm glad to see that, even being downvoted by the hasbara bots, the truth will always rise to surface, even on these international news subs from reddit
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u/GitmoGrrl1 Mar 31 '24
The Rabid Rogue Rightwing Netanyahu government has become an existential threat to Jews of the world. They commit the crimes, we pay the price.
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u/frandalf921 Mar 31 '24
Sionismo, Un nuevo ejemplo de la ineficacia de la maquinaria alemana del siglo veinte y sus consecuencias
Zionism, a new example of the inefficiency of the German machinery of the twentieth century and its consequences
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u/Hairy_Traffic_3691 Mar 31 '24
Allah is the best of all planners !
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u/dejavuus Mar 31 '24
What israel seeks to prevent, little do they know that they hasten with their own actions!
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u/Some_Ad_563 Mar 31 '24
I thought the cease fire was approved by the UN..Not that it's any use..But I thought it would have stopped the US from supplying weapons? Was I wrong?
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u/aebulbul Mar 31 '24
Does anyone have the link to the original video? Can't seem to find it on their website or social media.
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u/GenericManBearPig Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
Everything he said scans but something needs to happen NOW.
The death toll from starvation is only going to continue to skyrocket every day this atrocity of a war continues.
If the United States isn’t willing to lead the world by example then someone else must because Israel will not stop until they are forced to stop.
An isolated Israel won’t survive long without western support, that needs to be the only option Israel is given.
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u/wishtherunwaslonger Apr 01 '24
Bro you know Israel would literally just cuddle up to a Russia or China. They would support Israel whole heartedly
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u/GenericManBearPig Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
You aren’t serious are you bro? I’m sure Iran and Syria would love it if their ally suddenly decided Israel was super neato and cozied up to them.
Russia would gain nothing of value by replacing the yanks as Israel’s fleshlight,
I’m sure Russia would love to donate billions in aid to Israel like the Americans do. What’s Israel going to do with all of their American equipment? Just let it rot in the sun when they can’t get replacement parts or ammo?
Doesn’t really matter because Russia can’t even fulfill their current foreign weapons orders while they’re stuck in the quagmire in Ukraine.
Russia has their own equipment shortages to deal with
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u/wishtherunwaslonger Apr 02 '24
Russia would gain nothing of value? Information and technology. A real stable foothold in the Middle East. You think they need all of that equipment. Without US help and with Russia/Chinese support they will literally genocide Palestinians out of their land along with any threat near their borders. Russia has ramped up production. They are fulfilling orders at record rates. Keep in mind Russia is no where even close to fully mobilized for war. My main point is Israel has options and a China/russia would love to be Israel’s friend. I bet they could flip Chinas vote in the Un with one f-35
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u/PlausibleFalsehoods Apr 03 '24
Good stuff, but I was a little thrown by the word "Jewry." I've only ever heard it in an antisemitic context. Does it have a more general meaning?
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u/wood1492 Apr 01 '24
Another case of whataboutism. Sadly both sides have grisly tapes to share - let’s stop the killing and hating on both sides. There is room for two states…
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u/wood1492 Apr 01 '24
It is all so awful. But why is he only representing one side of the conflict? He doesn’t even mention October 7th…journalists need to be unbiased.
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Mar 31 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Suitaru Mar 31 '24
did you know that during south african apartheid, the anc killed people with “necklacing”? they’d trap someone with a tire, douse them in gasoline, and set them on fire. forty years ago you’d have been one of the people calling for the execution of duly convicted terrorist nelson mandela. nowadays those people just quietly thank their lucky stars that there wasn’t social media to preserve their inhumanity in pristine amber.
in contrast, today, israel is not only constantly committing horrifying atrocities that would make apartheid south africa blush, it’s doing it on camera and bragging about it on social media. history will not be kind.
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u/RevolutionaryWorth21 Mar 31 '24
What Israel is doing in Gaza has nothing to do with Hamas or self defense or getting back the hostages. If it were they wouldn't have chosen to cut off food, water, electricity, etc. to the whole population. Even the mere fact that they had the power to do so shows the power imbalance of Israel as the occupying power over Gaza, which makes this not a war, but a slaughter.
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u/CockpeedFartin Mar 31 '24
since we love doing politics of the lesser evil here in the USA: Hamas is unequivocally, and by every metric, the lesser evil when compared to israel. Fun fact: Israel and the USA are actually pretty friendly with ISIS. They find them useful very often. ISIS even apologized to israel after attacking them by mistake.
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