r/F1Technical • u/itisyeetime • Nov 09 '22
Safety What is the Marshalling Walking Behind the Starting Grid with the Green Flag When the Lights Go out Doing?
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u/ZealousidealFox1391 Nov 09 '22
Its to indicate to the race director that everything is fine and it’s safe to start
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u/colin_staples Nov 09 '22
Specifically to indicate that all cars at the rear of the grid have stopped moving, to avoid the kind of accident that occurred at Monza in 1978
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u/WonderNastyMan Nov 09 '22
which is what kind of accident?
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u/chazysciota Ross Brawn Nov 09 '22
That was what killed Ronnie Peterson (sorta, he died in the hospital due to complications). Cars at the back getting a rolling start and swamping the cars ahead.
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u/No_Luck_5505 Nov 09 '22
Taken from another comment further down....
Like many procedures in F1 it's there because of a tragedy - in this case the death of Ronnie Peterson in 1978
In the 1978 Italian Grand Prix, Peterson had qualified for 5th position on the grid. After the formation lap, drivers were arriving at the grid when the race starter began that race before the drivers were ready. As a result, some of the drivers were already rolling to the grid when the race started.https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Ronnie_Peterson
In the days after the race, many drivers on circuit stated that the race starter lit the green light for the race too early.[16] Although a Formula One start is meant to be a standing start for all cars in the field, the early green light meant that cars in the rear rows were still rolling when the green light came on. This resulted in cars in the back getting a jump on those at the front, and an accordion effect as the cars approached the first chicane, bunching them tightly together.9
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u/colin_staples Nov 09 '22
See my other comment in this conversation, about the death of Ronnie Peterson
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u/Budpets Nov 09 '22
Similar to that portugal restart mayhem a couple years ago
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u/colin_staples Nov 09 '22 edited Nov 09 '22
He's signalling that the cars at the back have actually stopped.
Because if they are still in motion, they have a rolling start - rather than a standing start of the drivers at the front.
Why is this an issue?
Because accelerating from a rolling start means you gain speed much faster, and are far more likely to hit the cars ahead of you.
Like many procedures in F1 it's there because of a tragedy - in this case the death of Ronnie Peterson in 1978
In the 1978 Italian Grand Prix, Peterson had qualified for 5th position on the grid. After the formation lap, drivers were arriving at the grid when the race starter began that race before the drivers were ready.
As a result, some of the drivers were already rolling to the grid when the race started.
https://f1.fandom.com/wiki/Ronnie_Peterson
In the days after the race, many drivers on circuit stated that the race starter lit the green light for the race too early.[16] Although a Formula One start is meant to be a standing start for all cars in the field, the early green light meant that cars in the rear rows were still rolling when the green light came on. This resulted in cars in the back getting a jump on those at the front, and an accordion effect as the cars approached the first chicane, bunching them tightly together.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronnie_Peterson#Death
Peterson actually survived the accident and went to hospital with badly broken legs. But he suffered an embolism and died in hospital.
So the accident itself wasn't the cause of death, but it's highly likely that the accident would have been avoided if they had waited before all cars at the back were actually stationary before starting the race.
And that's why today somebody walks across the back of the grid to check for exactly this, and waves a green flag to confirm that it's safe to start the race.
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u/nick-jagger Nov 09 '22
I mean if you watch that race start from Monza it wouldn’t have been solved by a Marshall. The entire grid was still rolling when the light got switched on….
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u/colin_staples Nov 09 '22
(Disclaimer - I haven't seen the race start)
But surely if the race could not start until a green flag was waved, and the green flag would not be waved until ALL cars were stopped, then that would mean the race would not start while some cars were still rolling?
So surely it would have been solved by that marshall?
Or have I missed something?
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u/nick-jagger Nov 09 '22
Worth watching, then you’ll see what I mean. The race director must have been blind, no Marshall signal can solve that
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u/xocerox Nov 09 '22
I had never seen it. Only 2 cars were almost stopped, the rest was clearly not yet in position.
I agree that if the RD couldn't see that every car was still moving, he wouldn't have seen or not seen a marshal at the back of the grid.
Did the RD get sanctioned somehow from this?
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u/SirLoremIpsum Nov 09 '22
The race director must have been blind, no Marshall signal can solve that
I feel if we had an Aircrash Investigations into the accident - the primary at fault would be the RD hitting the button too early, but a lack of a marshal signalling 'all stopped' would be a significant contributing factor.
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u/FavaWire Nov 10 '22
What solves it is the procedure. That time in 1978 the Race Control were left to their own devices when to start.
Today they must affirm all grid rows are "green" and they must affirm that the last marshall has waved the Green Flag across the back of the grid.
It's the requirement to wait and not just press the start button.
This is an important change and it would have saved lives in 1978 as it continues to protect competitors today.
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u/stillboard87 Patrick Head Nov 09 '22
If the race director had waited for the signal from the Marshall before switching the light….
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u/nick-jagger Nov 09 '22
Race director was so blind he couldn’t see an entire grid driving around in chaos, which means he couldn’t have seen a marshall either. Two cars had stopped, the rest weren’t even close to being gridded…
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Nov 09 '22
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u/Driver9211 Nov 09 '22
Can't it be monitored electronically, do we need a guy waving a flag? What if one car fell back too far and is slow to join the grid and the green flag guy is crossing the track waving the flag, and the car behind then joins? It can lead to a nasty accident.
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u/colin_staples Nov 09 '22
The medical car follows behind the 20 race cars. If one car is slow presumably the medical car slows down to ensure that no race cars fall behind it. And this would be seen on the TV and reported to race control.
I assume that the flag guy counts all 20 cars go past him, see that there are no more cars ahead of the safety car, sees that both slots on the final row are filled, then he knows it's safe to walk across.
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u/Middle_Somewhere6969 Nov 09 '22
The green flag marshal will have been told how many cars are on the grid (in the case where one or more may start from the pitlane) and will only wave the flag when that number are in place.
The green flag initiates the electronic monitoring for a false start as well as the red light countdown.
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u/hexapodium Nov 09 '22
Electronic monitoring is great for all the foreseeable problems. A human marshal walking past and looking is much better for unforeseeable problems and edge cases; considering that the start is one of the most dangerous points in a race, both statistically and theoretically, the small extra risk is offset by the substantial gain.
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u/stillboard87 Patrick Head Nov 09 '22 edited Nov 09 '22
Why would the Marshall cross and wave the flag if all the cars aren’t there? His job is to not go until the last car is in place.
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u/Driver9211 Nov 09 '22
If a car in between is missing can he spot it from the back of the grid?
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u/stillboard87 Patrick Head Nov 09 '22
He would count the cars as the arrived on the grid. When only 19 of the 20 had arrived then he would know a car in the middle was missing. It’s not that hard.
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u/ziryra Nov 09 '22
No, a person physically waving a flag on the race surface is not needed. On board telemetry and cameras, I think, are enough to replace needing to be on the race surface.
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u/mopoke Nov 09 '22
Usually the chief grid marshal. They will wave the flag once the grid is set. The starter will then initiate the start sequence. These days they will also radio before they wave the flag.
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u/zerthz Nov 09 '22
That's my dream job, walking and waving that flag. Every race I see him and that's what I aspire to be
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u/chazysciota Ross Brawn Nov 09 '22
Whole lot of eyes on you, and nobody can really see your face. Probably a strange feeling.
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u/DirtCrazykid Nov 09 '22
Forever immortalized in controversy and excitement yet no one knows your name
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u/Loss-Sorry Nov 17 '22
Not all are anonymous - at the 2019 Abu Dhabi GP it was Will Smith waving that flag. He looked kind of silly though.
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Nov 09 '22
Trivia: In the 1990's they did away with the green flag guy, as seen in this video of a 1999 start...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWhA5DBuLJw
...but his job was deemed so important they brought him back again.
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u/DepartmentSudden5234 Nov 09 '22
How did they resolve this ... Do you know?
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u/Abisteen Nov 09 '22
The start was aborted and they did another formation lap. No one got penalized. Interesting note, there was a pretty dramatic crash that happened in the first turn once the race proper began: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1SwKIsnTCo
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u/ihathtelekinesis Mar 21 '23
To add to this, they stopped using the green flag man for 1996 when the 5 red lights were introduced. At the first start in Australia that year, Murray said something like "remember too that you're not going to see a man with a green flag walk across the back of the grid because the whole thing has been automated". They must've reintroduced him a few years later because I remember seeing him at Shanghai in 2005 and thinking it was unusual.
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u/francor46 Nov 09 '22
Not exactly when the lights go out but after he does it, yes, the light sequence for the star will begin after he gives it the green flag.
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u/FavaWire Nov 10 '22
Asides from the Marshall at the back waving the "Final Green Flag" there are also Green Flag indicators per grid row you can see them just above the "Heineken" logos on the starting grid in this image:https://d2xpg1khvwxlf1.cloudfront.net/production/images/original/30818-F1_Experiences_Mexico_2018_Sunday_039-1-d1ccc7cd04b3a42db551a211760f485f.jpg
Next time you watch a race you will notice that all of these confirm "Green" to affirm that the grid is ready row-by-row then the marshall at the back does the Walk-and-Wave for "Final Green".
In earlier times, if ANY of the cars had a problem, the drivers could signal with crossed arms overhead that they have a problem. There would be a yellow flag (or yellow light on their grid row as it would be today) and the marshall at the back will NOT wave the green and the start will be aborted.
With the problem car(s) marked "yellow" you can then proceed to another formation lap. Cars that revive and can do so before they become the last car to cross on that formation lap can retake their position. Any cars that revive but are last to cross the start line for a formation lap will start from the back of the grid.
Any cars that remain dead will be wheeled into pitlane and have to start from pitlane once a confirmed start can occur. They miss any succeeding formation laps as well.
This process repeats on a loop until such time you can get an "all green confirm" then the 5 red lights illuminate and start the race.
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u/AkohovavyManeno Nov 09 '22
Follow up question: I’m assuming the safety car at the back just goes into the pit lane immediately? What’s its purpose?
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u/C22CorvusCorax Nov 09 '22
It's the medical car, with a doctor onboard. It follows the field round on the first lap, and assuming it isn't required to attend any incidents it pits at the end of the first lap.
That is why the medical car arrived so quickly in Grosjean's crash at Bahrain, for example - it was already following the cars.
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Nov 09 '22
first lap is chaotic and when a lot of accidents typically occur.
Thats the medical car with a competent driver and a doctor on board. They follow the field for the first lap then return to the pits at the end of lap1. the leaders wouldnt possibly lap the medical car on the first lap and it puts a doctor at the scene almost immediately if theres an incident.1
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Nov 09 '22
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u/Jackles64 Nov 10 '22
I thought the same as the above posts but I swear, on many occasions, that the start sequence begins even before the guy waves the flag. As if the race director wants to get on with the show.
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