r/F1Technical • u/yukonwanderer • Jun 02 '22
Regulations why didn't the Williams cars receive penalty for ignoring blue flags?
Seeing that Latifi and Albon both didn't get out of the way for the Ferrari cars in Monaco - Albon being particularly bad in this regard, ignoring at least 10 flags - why weren't they penalized? Why did Ferrari not protest that?
Seems to me like the penalty for such a performance should be a ban in the next race. I'm no Ferrari fan but this situation upon replay seems extremely screwed up.
Not sure if this regulation stuff is considered technical or not.
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u/-Coffee-Owl- Jun 02 '22
That's the mystery of FIA we probably will never know. Or someone in 10 years will write about it as a "blue-flag-gate".
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u/merc4815162342 Jun 02 '22
Other than the fact that they are not battling Williams in the championship, I'm baffled as to why Ferrari did not protest this. Also baffled as to why race control let these slide during the race.
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u/DirtCrazykid Jun 02 '22
There is a fee required to file a protest with the FIA. No brainer if it's your direct competitor, not worth it if it's a team you were literally lapping. Ferrari would just be wasting money
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u/deathclient Jun 04 '22
The protest costs around €2000 and an appeal around €4000 . And if I recolllect , it is returned if it is successful. It should be a peanut cost for F1 teams and the outcome is that then it becomes a precedent for others to not do the same
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u/Quaxi_ Jun 02 '22
What would Ferrari win from it? They don't care if Albon gets a 5s penalty.
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u/satellite779 Jun 03 '22
Presence for the future? Now back markers can continue doing it and say Williams didn't get penalized, why should we.
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u/big_cock_lach McLaren Jun 03 '22
No point making unnecessary enemies without gaining something in a political environment. F1 is very political, and it’s not worthwhile protesting, since Ferrari doesn’t gain anything, and Williams can do something to hurt them in the future. Ferrari can complain in public (as they are doing) to make sure future stewards will keep a closer eye on these things too.
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u/TheTuxdude Peter Bonnington Jun 06 '22
As the system is set up right now, it is fine for FIA to let these things slide (unless the race director catches this and passes it to the Stewards for review during the race) unless the affected team(s) file a protest. And even if they did file such a protest, the only outcome would be the team who caused the issue gets some kind of penalty. There is nothing the affected team really gets in return unless the team who caused the issue and the affected team are battling out each other.
All it really sets up is more inconsistencies and setting a precedent in terms of getting away with these kinds of incidents with no repercussions whatsoever.
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Jun 02 '22
Race control = room of squabbling old men
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u/WhiteWolf7472 Jun 02 '22
*senile
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Jun 02 '22
Yes also senile
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u/scope_creep Jun 02 '22
If only they had a roomful of Redditors.
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u/Blue_Shadow_Vaccine Jun 02 '22
We would shit on Mercedes just to let Bottas always stand higher in the WDC standings then both Mercedes drivers, and particularly on Hamilton so Russel can also beat Hamilton. Except if there would be Hamilton supporters, then it depends on what side has the most total karma. Haas would also win the WCC, and Latifi would get points for crashing in a race. The rule that you need to use at least 2 different tyre compounds per race would be abolished, and Pirreli would have to re-introduce super hards, so Albon can drive an entire race on 1 set of tyres. Everyone would also be simping on the drivers.
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Jun 02 '22
Also Max would already be announced as the champ for the next 6 seasons (no one is allowed to beat MS apparently tho)
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u/striptofaner Jun 02 '22
In an interview albon said he was quicker and would have overtook him right after letting leclerc pass. He had the balls to say this in Monaco.
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Jun 02 '22
How he would overtake him in Monaco? 😀
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u/Master_Reaction_703 Jun 02 '22
DNF
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5
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u/Giostark7 Jun 02 '22
Doesn't make any sense, he should have pulled out of the blue flag zone (1,2s) if he was quicker
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u/striptofaner Jun 02 '22
I know, that's why i call it a bullshit. I don't thibk he did that with malicious intent, he just wanted to lose the least amount of time. And ruined leclerc race. And latifi ruined sainz's.
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u/Rikysavage94 Jun 03 '22
i mean Williams were sitting in last position in Monaco... losing time on what? gaining a p16?
He should gave space anyway3
u/Rikysavage94 Jun 03 '22
also, when Albon did that mistake and Leclerc overtook him i didn't saw Albon overtake back... he was just incredible stupid or wanted to get attenction from RB
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u/beltjones Jun 02 '22
Honestly, I wish Latifi would find a racing series where he is competitive. The only business he has being in F1 is his father’s business. He’s a fine driver, but it’s not even worth penalizing him at this point. I mean, banning him from a race would likely save Williams money. In virtually every other race he’s dead last and driving by himself, so even a 10 second penalty is meaningless.
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u/JaredDadley Jun 02 '22
Me and my friends were crying with laughter after we joked that Stroll and Latifi were the most likely to fuck up on the formation lap, then it immediately cut to these guys in the wall.
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u/IHateHangovers Jun 02 '22
We had a bet on how long it would take them to crash, I definitely won the <10 minutes bet
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u/SirLoremIpsum Jun 02 '22
Me and my friends were crying with laughter after we joked that Stroll and Latifi were the most likely to fuck up on the formation lap, then it immediately cut to these guys in the wall.
Absolutely those two are the most likely to bin it in the wall on formation lap...
But that's in no way limited to latifi and Stroll.
2020 Hungary Max put it into the wall on a recon lap in wet conditions. 2020 Imola, Russell put it into the wall behind Safety Car. 2021 Spa, Perez put it into the wall on a recon lap.
It might not happen to everyone - but it happens. Cold tyres, wet conditions - this is something that happens to drivers at the front of the grid and drivers at the back of the grid.
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u/dmyl Jun 02 '22
I bet you and your friends were very surprised with how did Turkish wet qualy in '20 end
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u/jlobes Jun 02 '22
Yes, Lance Stroll taking pole position was very surprising. Since, y'know... he's comparatively slow.
What was the point you were trying to make?
Do you think that performance was down to Stroll's driving and not a Hail Mary of a strategy call to put him on intermediates?
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u/dmyl Jun 03 '22
add 2 and 2 chief, you and your pals seem like a fair bunch. Why didn't you bet on Schumacher who now has a 100% record of disassembling his car in Monaco? Sure, the "goatifi and stroll bad" is very humorous, but the toxicity levels in f1 are not enough, let's bring some more
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u/jlobes Jun 03 '22
I'm sorry you think I'm being toxic, but you're the one that assumed I was surprised that a slow driver took pole. I'm only agreeing with you that yes, I was surprised, because he's generally pretty slow.
I'm not trying to be an asshole about it, I'm not saying he's a bad driver, but he's not who I expect to qualify on pole, ever. Frankly, short of a miraculous change of circumstances, no one should expect Lance Stroll to qualify on pole.
I think you're conflating my comment with the one you initially replied to.
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u/Keep6oing Jun 02 '22
I'd like to see him in Indycar in "equal" equipment. I get that he isn't the best driver F1 driver but you still have to be pretty damn quick to put an underperforming car on the grid every weekend.
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Jun 02 '22
Agreed with this and it's an understated point. Even Mazepin made the 107% time just about every weekend he didn't crash first. You can buy an easier path, but you ultimately can't buy a Superlicense. That said IndyCar is a higher standard than most F1 fans give it credit for, he wouldn't have an easy go of it right away.
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u/Keep6oing Jun 02 '22
I agree. Like him or hate him, and despite his questionable on track decisions, Mazepin was still running up front in F2. I thought he did well considering the car he was given. Certainly better than I could do.
Of course Latifi wouldn't win Indycar races out the gate but he would at least have a fair shot. Driving a Williams is like asking a fish to climb a tree.
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u/SoothedSnakePlant Jun 02 '22
Yeah, all things considered, Mazepin's lack of pace last year should have been a big surprise to anyone who actually kept up with the junior series through means other than memes. He was winning races down there and regularly running up front. He wasn't going to be an elite talent, but there was nothing to suggest he was going to be that bad.
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u/Keep6oing Jun 03 '22
Exactly! I really think it was down to the car. I read that the car was overheating the rear tires after 3-5 laps. That gave it great speed in qualifying but proved to be unpredictable during the race. I get the business side of why they did it, but putting 2 rookies in a garbage car was never going to produce results.
I could go on and on about it, but I feel the way Hass handled Mazepin's tenure with the team was embarrassing.
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u/According-Switch-708 Mercedes Jun 02 '22
Yeah,Both Williams drivers should've been given penalties for impeding the Ferraris.
What i dont understand is, as to why Ferrari didnt pursue this matter with the FIA.
Sure, those penalties wouldn't have helped Ferrari out but atleast they could've passed on a part of the blame that they got(for the failed strategy) to Williams.
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u/dialtone Jun 02 '22
What would that achieve? Penalty for Williams wouldn’t have fixed the ruined race, and would have cost money for Ferrari. RD needs to deal with this stuff on their own
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u/striptofaner Jun 02 '22
Carlos Sainz lost the race to that. I don't know why they didn't even investigate. But i'm a Ferrari fan, i'm used to nonsense decisions.
-86
Jun 02 '22
Sainz lost the win to Leclerc.
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia Jun 02 '22 edited Jun 03 '22
Don't know how you're getting this logic but Sainz lost a good 3-4 seconds behind Latifi and Leclerc lost God knows what behind Albon. Albon's race engineer was even calling for him to let Leclerc by. He should have a race ban and be investigated. I'm sure it's only circumstantial that he's a Red Bull employee.
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u/The_209 Jun 02 '22
I went back and looked at the times for the lap where Albon was parked in front of Leclerc. Lec lost 3.5 to 4 seconds to Ver behind him in one lap. That much time definitely has an impact on pit windows.
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u/Flogiculo Jun 02 '22
Verstappen came out of the pitlane just ahead of leclerc, about 0.9s. Those 3.5 seconds were plenty for leclerc to stay ahead!
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia Jun 02 '22
Absolutely. I genuinely believe it's shocking this wasn't investigated. My question is this; if Albon was trying to help out RB then what more would he have done?
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Jun 02 '22
Sainz refused to box twice to cover Perez. If He did that, it would have been easy double for Ferrari. Then he pitted late for softs and payed the prize.
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u/Harry_middle Jun 02 '22
I hate to break it to you but if he were to have been found ignoring blue flags he’d get a 5 second penalty not a race ban
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia Jun 02 '22
Alvin ignored 21 blue flags, whether you like it or not it's a conspiracy that he's not being investigated.
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u/SwiftFool Jun 02 '22
lol all that salt isn't good for your health. Conspiracy or not he wouldn't get a race ban because that's not what the rules call for. You can't demand Albon be held to this role and be punished by your temper tantrum made up punishment.
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia Jun 02 '22 edited Jun 03 '22
The FIA have made it obvious that rules can be changed to suit proper punishment. I expected that something would change after last season but it's obvious that 2022 is just a new flavour.
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u/SwiftFool Jun 02 '22
Haha complaining about the FIA being the same and then trying to throw my same joke back at me. Go back to Mario Kart, kiddo.
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u/TheKingOfCaledonia Jun 02 '22
Living up to your username, have a nice day :)
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u/SwiftFool Jun 02 '22
Cheers, kiddo. Maybe go talk to sobering about your feelings to help you cope with last weekend.
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u/FoxOConnor Williams Jun 02 '22 edited Jun 02 '22
Anyone got the onboard? I am curious if it was actually that many
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Blue flags indicate a driver must yield to a lapping car behind them at the earliest *safest** opportunity.* Monaco doesn’t provide many of those.
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u/nxhwabvs Jun 02 '22
Yes, a few ex-drivers have commented that this is their take on the situation.
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u/CuriousPumpkino Colin Chapman Jun 02 '22
Somehow every non-williams driver did manage to find a spot that didn’ take them over a dozen blue flags. Albon pretty much drove an entire lap with leclerc behind him. You can’t tell me the only spot to let someone past is “escape road T1” when other ppl managed
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
So, I guess you’re implying Williams had an agenda to slow down just Ferrari?
Jeez. Some F1 fans are just out there. I’m glad I’m not that delusional.
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u/CuriousPumpkino Colin Chapman Jun 02 '22
Read the other replies, all I’m saying is that that’s a piss poor excuse
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Yeah, I know what you’re saying, and I’m saying it’s not, unless you were driving one of the Williams at Monaco and thus know exactly what was going on.
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u/CuriousPumpkino Colin Chapman Jun 02 '22
So I guess the Williams just happens to be 50% wider than the Alpha Tauri and Alfa Romeo that also got lapped then? Seeing as Tsunoda and Zhou didn’t ignore a dozen blue flags? Or do you want to tell me that Latifi and Albon are just simply far less capable drivers than Tsunoda and Zhou? In the 2021 Mazepin style of “I can’t. We’re in Monaco!”?
Tsunoda and Zhou proved that it’s very doable
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u/mistled_LP Jun 02 '22
I think they’re just saying that’s a terrible excuse since others didn’t have that issue. Don’t be so dramatic.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
And my point is that they weren’t out there in that Williams, so their opinion of where it was safe to yield is exactly as valid as my own: it’s not.
Somehow in this thread, though, there are a ton of people who seem to think they know better than the driver who was in the car on the track. It’s absurd, hence my reply.
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u/Giostark7 Jun 02 '22
If you can't find a safe spot to let a front runner pass on a WHOLE lap clearly you don't belong in f1 and if that's the situation you are clearly a danger for others on track. That said, Albon's behavior needs to be fixed, because he ignored a lap of blue flags impacting the end result of the race for no acceptable reason
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u/Unable-Signature7170 Jun 03 '22
Yet Albon let multiple other faster cars past him in the race without needing a full lap. It was only Leclerc he kept behind him, and it’s because he felt he was quicker.
It’s nothing to do with a lack of safe places to pass.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
The person you're replying to isn't suggesting Albon had some anti-ferrari motive at all? We're just saying Albon seemed pretty oblivious and that is problematic.
There are several points to allow a car by. After Casino, the tunnel, after the nouvelle chicane, after tabac, and of course, again on the straight. But sure, people just expected Albon to pull into the harbor. Everyone *else* is delusional.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
"The flag should normally be shown to a car about to be lapped, if the driver does not seem to be making full use of his rear-view mirrors. When shown, the driver concerned must allow the following car to pass at the earliest opportunity."
Appendix H to the FIA International Sporting Code 2.5.5.e
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u/hexapodium Jun 02 '22
In the ISC 1.2.3:
1.2.3 [the ISC] will never be enforced so as to prevent or impede a Competition or the participation of a Competitor, save where the FIA concludes that this is necessary for the safe, fair or orderly conduct of motor sport.
Implicitly this means where a blue flag is concerned, a driver at least has a right of appeal on the basis of the perceived safety of yielding or not.
More generally I suspect the FIA really doesn't want to get into the business of litigating what is ultimately a sporting decision, rather than a safety one. It's a terrible look if they start saying "well you should have done the thing you considered unsafe in the moment, for sporting reasons" - the process of getting and holding a super license is in part about being considered capable of making that decision. Blue flags have the further complication of being a three-party complaint: "I was yielding and the faster driver wasn't going for it hard enough before the opportunity disappeared". This is even more true at Monaco, given that on a good day it can take most of a lap to set up an overtake.
Short version: especially at the moment post-2021 dubious decisions, the FIA (and the sport) has an interest in only going to the mat on stuff that's a slam-dunk "don't do that" violation. Blue flags are almost never going to be slam-dunk, so for a while yet they aren't going to prosecute violations.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
I don't mean to get too bogged down in this because ultimately I don't mean to suggest the FIA ever intends to make drivers do things that are unsafe. They obviously don't. And I agree with your Moree general point. But also, there are plenty of points, even around Monaco, to yield to faster traffic, and we saw cars doing this--just as we have in prior years.
That said, your reading of 1.2.3 isn't correct. The rule you quote says the ISC will never be enforced to prevent competition among competitors unless [enforcing the ISC] is necessary for the safe, fair or orderly conduct of motorsport. This clearly means that the ISC can be enforced for safety purposes even if it would compromise someone's competition. That is the inverse of what we're talking about here, and does not at all lead to the conclusion you've suggested--that someone can decide a blue flag doesn't really apply to them because they are convinced deep down that they have the pace to re-pass the car behind them.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Wouldn’t the fact that rules can be enforced specifically to promote safety also by default mean safety can override a rule?
Drivers aren’t allowed to cut chicanes, but if they have to in order to maintain safe driving it’s allowed, they just have to be sure they don’t gain an advantage because of it.
That’s a pretty clear-cut example of the opposite that everyone accepts.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
Wouldn’t the fact that rules can be enforced specifically to promote safety also by default mean safety can override a rule?
No. Your question seems intuitive in the abstract, but it doesn't actually follow logically. The context of the quoted rule first establishes a baseline rule: The ISC can never be enforced to impede competition. The exception then simply states that the ISC rules can be enforced, even to impede competition--that is, even if it torpedoes one driver's individual race--in the interest of safety. In other words, the intentional sporting code is king--even if applying it destroys your race--where safety is concerned.
It does not follow to say that because safety can trump an individual competitor's race, individual competitors are therefore the arbiter of what is safe when race control tells them to do something.
Again, I'll reiterate my earlier caveat that I agree it's no the FIA's intention to make someone do something unsafe. But I think the Albon defenders in this thread could also appreciate that his decision didn't have anything to do with perceived safety. Albon said it himself: "You get into a position where, in my eyes, for both of us, it was quicker if I just stayed ahead, because I would have pulled away pretty much straight away. So that’s it really."
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
It does not follow to say that because safety can trump an individual competitor's race, individual competitors are therefore the arbiter of what is safe when race control tells them to do something.
Yet they are, both on and off the circuit. Individual drivers can choose to compete in events or not based on their discretion when it comes to safety. On the track, they have an obligation to maintain safety at all times. If a driver is black flagged, they don’t stop their car in the middle of the track, nor do they pull it over to the side and get out. They continue the lap and pull into the pit. There’s tons of situations where an individual driver has to make safety calls that override or at least skirt the rules.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
I don't actually disagree with you on those points. I think the question is this: what happens if a driver is mistaken as to their safety concerns? If a driver is shown a blue flag and fails to yield because they were mistakenly concerned about safety, are the stewards simply powerless to impose any penalty? I would submit that cannot be the case.
My point here is not that Albon had to park his car at casino the moment he saw a blue flag. But surely, if a driver ignores what race control have ordered him to do, then it's not unfair that he should face the consequences for doing so if it was in fact safe to let the car behind through.
And again, let's not lost sight that the actual issue here wasn't about safety.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
I was just using that as an example to illustrate my point, FYI. Don’t think you actually believed that, lol.
I mean, someone earlier asked, “Do you want drivers second-guessing themselves when they make safety calls because of the fear of penalty?” and I’m pretty sure most reasonable people would say no to that. I’m certain it has, does, and will happen that drivers fudge situations and claim safety occasionally to cover themselves, but as long as they aren’t blatantly abusing it, I’d always rather give them the benefit of the doubt in order to avoid injuries or fatalities because a driver ignored their instincts out of fear of a penalty.
What is the actual issue here, then?
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
The actual issue here is that Alex Albon didn't yield after like 18 blue flags despite not having any safety concerns...
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u/hexapodium Jun 02 '22
I think your reading is correct - if we are all being fair and equitable, assuming that everyone is acting in good faith both in the race and at the stewards' desk later. And I completely agree with the reading that the ISC is and should be enforceable even if it compromises someone's competition.
However, if we view it from the rules-wrangling perspective later - that is, if a complaint was made and it goes to the stewards (etc etc) - then what Williams are looking for is a plausible post-hoc justification which will withstand scrutiny and escape too-severe punishment. This can probably be conjoured up on "on-track safety judgement call" grounds; the FIA is then on a sticky wicket because on the one hand, they don't want to make a concrete call about how promptly one must respond to a blue flag; on the other, if they say non to the complaint, that would be open season on ignoring blue flags for sporting reasons so long as the team's got a convincing lawyer, and those are cheap.
I suspect there may have been some behind the scenes "don't push this" discussion, but I also think this is a good example of a policy of ambiguity - F1 is a sport of going right up to and then as far as possible over the line; making these lines ambiguous can in some cases stop people from pushing them.
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u/ThatKidWatkins Jun 02 '22
I agree with everything you said. I just don't think it really applies here. Albon came right out and said he ignored the blue flags because he thought he was faster. That is not his call to make. I don't think imposing a penalty for that is straightforward here. In fact, I think failing to do so encourages the problematic behavior you describe: making it open season on ignoring blue flags because the driver thinks "nope, actually I'm the faster driver here."
Again, to be clear, I don't actually feel super strongly about this. I like Albon and think the folks calling for race bans are probably overboard, but I'm surprised someone can go around this track of all tracks ignoring blue flags based on their personal judgment and essentially have that blessed by the regulatory body.
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u/pinotandsugar Jun 02 '22
If he had impeded Hamilton fighting for a podium there would be calls for the death penalty
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Lol, the way some people in this thread are talking, he should have immediately put his car into the harbor to let Ferrari pass.
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u/pinotandsugar Jun 02 '22
Perhaps modify the rule so that a lapped car must move off the line and remain off the line until the faster car is past.
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u/hexapodium Jun 02 '22
I think that might open up even more scope for what might be politely called "team orders nonsense" - assume car A1 is way out in front and in contention with C1, car B1 is slow and about to be lapped by A2, but C1 has just left the pits. A1, A2 and C1 are all on the same lap, B1 is +1.
A2 coming up behind B1 results in B1 getting the blue flag. Perfect for A2, if they wanted to push hard. But by not pushing, now they're blocking C1 - who is not entitled to have A2 blue-flagged (they're on the same lap). A1 gets to widen their gap for an easier pit, and C1's chances of an overtake are greatly reduced. Do it strategically and we'd be selling pitchforks outside the stands.
Ultimately, I think it's better to consider the blue flag to be informational, rather than directive - "a faster car is behind you". It's then a question of good sportspersonship and good conduct to give the line to the faster car, but not at the expense of safety or any down-field battles - imagine for a moment the uproar if HAM came out at +1 after some nonsense like a dodgy pit, and was obliged to back off during a critical sector in order to let the leaders, who he is on his way back to catching, through at the expense of his own fightback.
I know it's a controversial stance among some, but my personal take is that traffic is just something drivers have to deal with; it adds texture to a race and has the potential to stop a field getting threaded right out to a four or five-lap spread. The drivers are generally not that offensively unpleasant as individuals and they can (broadly) be trusted to compete with a degree of honour - the boot could, as we've seen with Mercedes this season, be on the other foot but for a few races or a rules change. Cast-iron rules are good for safety and for things that can't ever involve judgement calls - but where something like yielding a line is concerned, it's sporting conduct and competitive judgement that has the flexibility that's needed.
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u/pinotandsugar Jun 02 '22
Let's change the line a bit and the Mercedes Miracle has occurred, Hamilton's chasing down Max. Hamilton comes out behind Perez whose car is having an off day and is a lap down but between Hamilton and Max. Perez pace drops another second a lap, partially because his line is designed to make it more difficult for Hamilton to pass. Without Perez Hamilton would run 2 seconds faster than Max but now when Perez does move Max is beyond reach.
The outrage would be overwhelming.
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u/hexapodium Jun 03 '22
I think the difference there is that in your scenario, everyone is still racing. Hamilton has to pass Perez, but that is actually no different than if everyone was half a lap closer to the front and Perez was holding him up in 4th not 10th. Overtaking is pretty integral to the sport after all, and if Hamilton is now on a car that can do -3 on Perez I would expect him to be able to make that overtake. That's what I mean by the "that's racing" angle - the better driver is kind of expected to be able to take an advantage, not have it handed to them.
Blue flags, on the other hand, are taking battles away down-field and adding another handicap to the weaker driver - now they have to give the line and pace in their own fights to someone else who isn't even involved. That seems like a difficult call for marshals to make, if blue flags are strictly directive - "whose battle is more important, the leaders in another three laps or the 10-11-12-13 brawl in front of me with the 3rd place fighting through?"
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u/pinotandsugar Jun 03 '22
When you have a driver valiantly fighting for 19'th place either blocking or causing a crash affecting the two drivers struggling for the win and the championship the lynch mob would be out. Especially if the slow driver is in the B team of one of the drivers competing for the championship. The slower driver is given a few turns to allow the pass and there are very few situations where the time lost is material. Actually the driver fighting to prevent the pass is probably losing time to his direct competitors.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Soooo…exactly what I said?
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u/bobwont Jun 02 '22
You said ‘safest’ so no.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Making sure the pass is safe is a given. They’ve even had situations in the past where a driver did not yield specifically because it was unsafe and it was allowed. Unless you’re suggesting that the rule is implying they must yield, even if it risks a collision.
So, yes. Exactly what I said.
This thread is obviously about trying to imply the race direction was anti-Ferrari, though, so I’m going to get downvoted.
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u/lazygeekninjaturtle Jun 03 '22
Monaco doesn’t provide many of those.
Yes, among all other speculations this looks plausible. Also, important to note that, the track outside racing line was still wet, and in Monaco stepping outside racing line and going in wet could mean slowing down significantly.
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u/Tvoja_Manka Jun 02 '22
i can think of at least 3 spots where they could do it
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u/gspm Jun 02 '22
On a partly wet track though?
Palmer's analysis on youtube talks about the time lost behind Latifi.
I ran a scenario through my mind of Latifi going off the dry line to let Sainz past, and then losing his car into the wall and Sainz being too close behind on a narrow track to avoid being caught up in it. Sainz out of the race.
As it was, Latifi gets out of the way as he enters the (dry) tunnel.
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u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Didn’t realize you were Albon or Latifi.
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u/DieLegende42 Jun 03 '22
You do realise you're being incredibly disrespectful to Albon and Latifi, right? You're essentially saying they're to shit at driving to make way
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u/Unable-Signature7170 Jun 03 '22
But Albon himself said the reason he didn’t let him by was because he felt he was quicker. It was nothing to do with a lack of safe places to let him through.
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u/king_pipo Jun 02 '22
I don't think its worth a race ban
87
u/dfaen Jun 02 '22
That a driver can go over an entire lap while ignoring flags is obscene. The only reason the flags stopped is cause he messed up in turn one. Absolutely should have been black flagged. Imagine the uproar if a driver ignored yellow flags. Flags are flags. That a driver can ignore directives without any consequences is not something that should be tolerated.
3
u/kidhockey52 Jun 02 '22
What lap did albon hold up leclerc? Just watched both of his outlaps and it wasn't on either of those which is what I had thought.
4
u/AakashT Jun 02 '22
Lap 18, I think it's albons outlap
14
u/kidhockey52 Jun 02 '22
Lap 20, just watched the full Leclerc onboard. That was pretty egregious by Albon. He wasn't even going to let him by down the pit straight after that lap except for the fact that he locked up and went straight at St. Devote.
3
u/AakashT Jun 02 '22
Ah my bad, must've had my laps mixed up. And yeah, what Albon did was way too strange, especially with the reasoning. It doesn't matter if you're faster or not. You're not in contention for the win, so you concede and get lapped. Plain as day. Latifi let Sainz past just before the tunnel, plenty of space there. I'm surprised with the friendship Albon and Charles have off track, he didn't think twice as to what this might cost.
6
u/kidhockey52 Jun 02 '22
Yeah pretty selfish tbh.
And of course we have to expect that on track every single driver is going to be selfish. That’s why we have flags that make them do things they don’t want to do. Like getting tf out of the way of the race winning contenders.
I like albon but that was a dick move.
3
u/AakashT Jun 02 '22
Exactly. I'd understand if it was Russell in the Williams last year giving Max a hard time to pass on a blue flag, or Pierre doing the same to Hamilton, just to make things a little harder for them, even though that's kinda shitty thing to do.
But Albon man, like there's literally nothing good for you in holding poor Charles up.
3
u/kidhockey52 Jun 02 '22
Spent the whole lap not wanting to compromise his own race at Charles’ lol expense and then loses all that time he maybe gained by locking up and going straight. Totally pointless.
0
u/ninjakippos Jun 02 '22
I might be wrong here, but isn't albon still under redbull contract? So in that case he would be in the same boat as pierre right?
But still... Dick move!
1
Jun 02 '22
My understanding is he's not currently under contract with Red Bull Racing, but has Red Bull (the parent company) as a personal sponsor, although Red Bull has some sort of option to recall him for 2023 if they choose. But for 2022, he is a Williams driver, not a Red Bull driver on loan at Williams.
2
u/sion6590 Jun 02 '22
But I mean if Albon genuinely thought he was quicker, then what he did makes perfect sense. Why should he ruin his race and chance of catching up to the pack/overtaking someone in the pits if he genuinely would have been quicker than leclerc? He was on the slicks and had the tyre advantage over leclerc and was pulling away down the pit straight
2
u/sylenthikillyou Jun 02 '22
In my mind, the chance to prove that you're quicker is before you're shown the flags. Once you're seeing blue flags, it's fine if you end up being quick enough to unlap yourself later, but you can't just claim that you're faster without giving the leader the lead and proving it on track. Basically the same process as team orders where the team goes "we'll put the other person ahead and give them a shot at overtaking/pulling away, and if it doesn't work you get the place back in a few laps".
1
u/Rikysavage94 Jun 03 '22
but why he didn't overtook leclerc in the lap after like he said?? ridicolus
he wasn't faster, also you let p1 guy pass if you are p 20 or something1
u/sion6590 Jun 03 '22
Albon didn't overtake him after because he made the mistake going into corner 1 which allowed Leclerc through and lost him time, if he hadn't made that mistake he maybe could've overtaken him
1
u/Rikysavage94 Jun 03 '22
Ye sure, are you for real? They cant overtake a car 5s slower in monaco
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u/pinotandsugar Jun 02 '22
Rather than a black flag a penalty
Drive through or 10 second hold if he enters his pit.
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u/dfaen Jun 02 '22
That’s not enough to deter back markers from doing something like this. Driving an entire lap while intentionally ignoring waved flags warrants a black flag.
0
1
u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 03 '22
Lol it doesn’t. If you can deliberately drive into another car (see Vettel in Baku 2017) and not get a black flag it makes no sense to give one for a blue flag incident lol
0
u/dfaen Jun 03 '22
This wasn’t a one flag incident. Alex drove a whole lap ignoring blue flags, was instructed by his race engineer to let the Ferrari through and did nothing. The only reason he was passed is because he out braked himself. His answers on the issue after the race also demonstrated that he did this with full and deliberate intention, it was many just an accident that he somehow failed to see the flags or that there was an issue with his radio. A driver gone rogue is the very grounds for a black flag.
1
u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 03 '22
No it’s really not. There’s plenty of precedent for this. Personally, it’s a bit surprising to me that he didn’t get a penalty, but if he had got one it would 100% have been a 5-sec time penalty. Saying anything else is just plain nonsense. As I said, if you don’t get a black flag for deliberately driving into another driver they’re not going to do it for something like this. I could send you the FIA penalty guidelines document and show you exactly what the blue flag guidelines are. Hint: not a black flag!!!
1
u/dfaen Jun 03 '22
Absolutely, ignore a handful of blue flags, get a penalty. The current rules state three ignored blue flags attracts a penalty, right? What about when a driver intentionally ignores blue flags for a whole lap, and at no point voluntarily lets the car behind pass?
1
u/GaryGiesel Verified F1 Vehicle Dynamicist Jun 03 '22
It’s considered the same offence no matter now many flags you pass. Obviously more flags passed is a more serious breach of the rules, but it’s not black and white in terms of the number of flag posts you can pass. Especially in a case like this where the flagged driver had a reason to believe that they’d be faster than the car behind that presents a very different scenario to a driver simply ignoring flags
0
u/dfaen Jun 03 '22
You can’t be serious? Based on your flair you work within the sport, and you genuinely think what you wrote holds any truth? Drivers don’t get to decide what flags they obey and what flags to ignore. Drivers don’t get to decide that yellow flags are invalid and refuse to slow down because they’ve assessed there’s no safety risk. Alex has zero right to ignore blue flags upon his own bullshit assessment. He’s a lapped car holding up a car contending for a podium position. If he genuinely thought he was faster than the Ferrari, which is such a ridiculous notion, the appropriate course of action would have been to let the Ferrari by, as required by the blue flags, and then overtake it using his supposed speed advantage. That you’re seriously defending the behavior of a back marker driver who influenced the outcome of a race who went rogue and refused to follow waved flags is bewildering. There is no situation in which what Alex did was worthy of anything other than being black flagged. Imagine the shit show of Lewis going postal and deciding that he was going to ignore blue flags when he was lapped by Max earlier this year.
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Jun 02 '22
Because the FIA is in shambles, they no longer understand their own regulations and how to run a Grand Prix. It’s been quite obvious since Charlie Whiting passed away that they’re floundering and are proving their existence is completely unnecessary to the continued success of the sport.
3
u/AbsoluteYes Jun 02 '22 edited Jun 02 '22
Ensemble of living senile graves who play managers without any collective and enduring vision but filling their pockets. That is true for most of the things in the world, so it's not only a FIA problem. Doesn't make it look better tho.
10
u/smartaxe21 Jun 02 '22
This is like Redbull calling for a raceban for Hamilton after silverstone 2021
7
u/TheScarlettHarlot Jun 02 '22
Claiming race direction makes you lose is what all the cool kids are doing these days, though.
1
1
u/Oliese Jun 03 '22
When the pace is so similar between 4 cars these details on your outlap matter a lot
1
5
u/cairohamilton Jun 02 '22
Sounds like Albon thinks he’s still driving for RB. Both drivers should should receive an in race penalty next race, pointless giving a grid penalty to a Williams driver.
3
u/An0nBanana Jun 02 '22
Is it just me that thinks Albon is only there to sabotage other teams? I mean he clearly has red bull bias and even has it on his helmet (as an individual sponsor)
He may be a decent driver but it just baffles me how people aren't looking at him this way
2
u/LeviSJ95 Jun 02 '22
The track was quite wet and moving off the racing line can easily cause problems, we saw an Alfa and a Ferrari both almost spin and we saw a Haas in two parts.
I think historically the FIA have been a bit more lenient in blue flags in wet races as the safety aspect of moving out the way is riskier.
I also wonder if it was down to a penalty having no impact on the race for Albon, he was already comfortably last. Some retrospective points and a fine wouldn't go amiss though.
1
1
u/dscottj Jun 02 '22
Race control is run by humans and sometimes those humans make mistakes. Every year there's at least a dozen or so violations during the season that in retrospect should've gotten a penalty but didn't. The reverse is also true, but thankfully is less common. It's been like that for decades. If anything it's a bit better now that we have all the cameras and footage available. But it's only a bit better.
I don't think anyone likes it, but it's been a problem for so long I'm not sure there's an easy way to fix it. Yes the teams should be vigilant and protest when race control misses something, but again those teams are run by people and sometimes they make mistakes too. Ferrari in particular has turned snatching defeat from the jaws of victory into a kind of style signature.
0
u/LordDhr Jun 02 '22
Just wait for the stewards to come to a decision, maybe after some 10 years when the decision is made, the respective drivers might get 5 sec time penalty.
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u/erics75218 Jun 02 '22
I am honestly sick of the worst team in the sport continuously ending up in articles about the best teams in the sport.
Replace them with Andretti. Williams.have had a bigger impact on race outcomes than the legit competitors.
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u/Kaiser_-_Karl Jun 02 '22
I don't understand this take at all. Ferrari could see where williams were on the track and put their drivers behind them. Its not williams fault that ferrari pit strategy is awfull and beyond the letter of the regulations they aren't owed to give ferrari anything. The williams beleived they had the pace to not yield and that the track made it unsafe both of which race control doesn't seem to disagree heavily with. Williams are running their own race most racing series don't bother with blue flags for this exact reason
1
u/erics75218 Jun 02 '22
It's just like man, Williams and Latifi have had WAY to much an impact on races. Sure, ok it's legal, so what. "they have a right to race" ok fine. Are we trying to make F1 a field of bad asses, or trying to apologize for the suck asses? What's the name of the game here? Just because Ferrari fucked up, doesn't mean that Williams being so shit and having such shit drivers they impact race AND CHAMPIONSHIP outcomes FAR to often false.
Fuck it, let F2 on the track, make it like IMSA. "What they are racing too, they have a right....." F1 should be the best of the best, and when the worst team in the sport going on a decade is affecting championships from last place, that's not good, And nobody will convince me that's good.
Get better, or make space for someone else. Fucking HAAS would BEAT THEIR ASS, and they barely have an idea of what they are doing. LOL
1
u/Kaiser_-_Karl Jun 02 '22
Williams are running their own race they do not care nor should they care about other drivers except how it impacts them. Williams as a team and latifi in particular have only had such an impact because of how teams have responded or failed to respond to them. Hamilton in abu dhabi or leclerc in monaco neither are latifis (who was runner up in f2 and did some mighty impressive drives) fault. Besides that wtf are you on about? "Bad asses or suck asses" this is a championship its not a spec series there will always be some cars that are better some teams that operate better and some drivers who preform better. Latifi is faster than you or i could be in that seat but if you don't like how he drives thats fine just don't blame him for things hes not responsible for.
2
u/dialtone Jun 02 '22
100% not how it works. Williams is a backmarker and needs to get out of the way as soon as possible when shown blue flags, no discretion from their drivers is needed, necessary or even allowed
1
u/Kaiser_-_Karl Jun 03 '22
No actually. Your expected to give up the position before receiving 3 blue flags if it goes longer race control may choose to penalize the driver. But your allowed to not cede position or overtake a car that has lapped you if you have sufficent pace. Williams felt they did wether or not they were right race control didn't feel the need to intervene
1
u/dialtone Jun 03 '22
They never had sufficient pace, look at telemetry. Each of them cost a minimum of 2, probably at least 4s per lap to each Ferrari driver. They had no business being in front, Latifi never went full throttle until tunnel that whole first half of lap.
1
u/Kaiser_-_Karl Jun 03 '22
Which is why they eventually did get out of the way yes. Williams beleived they had the pace they were just wrong nobody is claiming williams were the fastest team on track
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1
u/carlospbraun Jun 02 '22
because is kot walking, slowing too much or getting out of the race line sometimes "might be dangerous" they analize telemetry adn situstion to know.
in monavo you ahve to ve significantly faster to overtake, more than 5 secs per lap, sonif your race is compromised by a blue flag you can hold the position a bit to find the best spot
1
1
u/tjsr Jun 02 '22
Is this in the same part of the race as I'm thinking? When they were still seconds behind?
Why not wave the blue flags when they're behind the Alonso train.
The times I can remember seeing those blue flags, they were out way too early.
1
u/Sudowoodo-Official Jun 03 '22
I believe in analysis said those Williams or fucking Latifi cost them nearly 3s of a pace or I just misheard something.
1
u/Rikysavage94 Jun 03 '22
it's really sad, Ferrari have basicalli no power since Schumacher days
by the way, it's a clear penalty... also if you are fighting for last position you have to leave space for people racing for p1 always, no matter the tyres
1
u/FavaWire Jun 10 '22
Latifi gave way to Sainz at Portier (which was the earliest opportunity when he got waved blues at Mirabeau)
Albon was on the dry slicks when Leclerc was behind him on Inters and according to Albon the pace difference between them at that point was "marginal" (We'd need more pictures to tell for sure).
Albon's alibi is that the dry tyres were starting to come good and "it no longer made sense to give way to a car on Intermediates as I would have to repass the same car later".
I am guessing the distance was big enough that the FIA did not blue flag/penalize? Not sure but Albon did not see his driving as being outside the rules at that point in the race.
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