r/F1Technical • u/Schwerter_105 • May 23 '22
Question/Discussion Was rewatching the onboard and noticed something wired
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u/daniec1610 May 23 '22
it seems like it goes into anti stall(?) before going into gear. Seems like they still havent fixed the issue. I wonder if its related to the engine because Sainz also got anti stall at the race.
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u/Schwerter_105 May 23 '22
Maybe, I believe Alfa also uses the internals of the Ferrari gearbox (they made the outer casing in-house)
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u/FurtleTurtle01 May 23 '22
From what I have read anti stall is mostly driver error, just releasing the clutch entirely too quickly. If you watch Carlos’ onboard, he saves it by pushing the clutch in immediately when he noticed the anti-stall kick in. Zhou did not.
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u/get_in_there_lewis May 23 '22
To me this is what it sounds like, I've heard this exact sound in a normal manual car by releasing too much clutch without enough accelerator putting the engine under a heavy load and it about to stall.
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u/mikethingsup May 24 '22
In a downstream way could this plausible damage the engine [or specific component] enough to cause the in race failure?
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u/mrbstuart May 24 '22
The only one I could think of would be if oil pressure dropped too low (oil pump is driven by the engine so pressure rises as speed rises) but it's highly unlikely
Damage caused by vibration at that engine speed would need a much longer time to create a real problem
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May 24 '22
What's anti stall (new to F1)
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u/Filandro May 24 '22
Power unit and electronics do everything they can to move the car forward without losing power, despite driver error. Power applied too slow/low could stall the car. The electronics boost power, since driver didn't do enough, because stalling an F1 car on the grid can be horrific and deadly.
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u/vick5516 May 23 '22
the alfa has been struggling with that for a while. seeing how its still an issue, its either just zhou being inexperienced with the starts, and needing more practice, or they have a problem which will need to be fixed for next year
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u/Mtbnz May 23 '22
So you're saying that the ongoing issues are either a problem with the car or with the driver?
That narrows it down a bit.
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u/FourteenTwenty-Seven May 23 '22
There could be some external factor!
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u/Mtbnz May 23 '22
I know, I'm just having a little fun
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u/tig999 May 25 '22
Car problem but more experienced driver seems to be clearly handling it much quicker/easier than rookie.
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u/Schwerter_105 May 23 '22
Yeah it’s just that for the last 2 races the starts were completely normal so seeing this again made me wonder if it’s the driver’s problem or the car’s. Either way I hope they get it sorted out for Monaco
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u/Dazed_Op Nov 04 '22
It kinda seems like the shifts are a little long. His head looks to jerk forward between the shifts. Other cars seem to do it less, like the Alfas shifts have a longer gap (by longer I mean by a fraction of a fraction of a second)
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u/nachmk4 May 23 '22
Alfa's starts these season have been quite bad. For me is problems with the clutch or clutch lever.
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u/Schwerter_105 May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22
So I was watching Zhou’s onboard trying to figure out how he dropped 4 places at the starting straight, and noticed a few things.
When he released the clutch the gearbox made some kind of grinding noise that seems to signal that the gears aren’t biting properly (may be human error or technical issue)
During the first 5 gears none of the rev lights on the wheel was on when the gear change actually happened, may very well be short shifting to limit slip.
However even at 6th and 7th gear the rev lights doesn’t seem to show the green lights to the left, it’s either all off or the red and blue ones on the right are lit.
The third point in particular seems strange to me as I always thought that if the engine revs high enough the band of lights will start lighting up from the very left all the way to the right, not start somewhere in the middle. I guess I just don’t understand this at the moment, any insight will be very welcome, thanks a lot!
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u/Scalage89 May 23 '22
When he released the clutch the gearbox made some kind of grinding noise that seems to signal that the gears aren’t biting properly (may be human error or technical issue)
That's not how this works, the car is in gear at the start, clutches have plates, not gears. On top of that, all gears are meshed at all times, only the plates engaging them to the axles move.
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u/Schwerter_105 May 23 '22
Ahh thanks for the explination
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u/MittonMan May 24 '22
To further the explenation, since he didn't bother to give you an alternative as suppose to just telling you what it isn't... The grinding you heard is more a shudder. Shudders and/or fluttering happens for many reasons, but they are mostly to do with things not operating in sync or as expected (too high or too low revs for instance) and they start to ocellate or vibrate as a result.
Closest example: In manual cars (or like F1 that has a clutch + sequential gearbox), there's a certain point in pulling away where if the revs are too low, the clutch grabs and releases (like a tire spinning on a loose surface) which causes shudder much like you heard in the video. It can also be a case of the ECU adding fuel to an engine that's about to stall, the engine revs up, the ECU backs off, only for the car to stall again. Rinse & repeat and you have oscillation.
Or like some have suggested in here. A wonky anti-stall that engages erratically, causing shudder.
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u/SquidCap0 May 23 '22
For the lowest gears it is not at all important to reach max RPM. The powerunits have lots of torque, in the higher gears you have to reach peak RPM to push thru the air. It is far better to change too early than to hit the rev limiter.
The grinding sound can also be wheel spin that is then reflecting thru the drivetrain, not a full spin but slipping just at the limit and bit over it.
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u/Zii23 May 23 '22
Not sure about the rest of the points but the lights I thought the left 4 lights are DRS. 1 to show its available 2 to show its useable and 4 showing its active. But maybe I’m just confused cause that’s how they have it in the F1 car in iracing 🤷🏻♂️
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u/Astelli May 23 '22
It's completely configurable for each driver, so what those lights show is up to them and them team. Could be DRS, could use it as part of the rev counter or could be something else entirely.
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u/Schwerter_105 May 23 '22 edited May 23 '22
That’s interesting, I looked over some more footage and during the actual racing the 3 lights on the very left would light up one by one upon exiting the final corner, and all 3 would shut down in around 2 seconds time. The timing makes them entirely possible to be DRS indication light. (Still not sure why they lit up before the race start, maybe some dedicated display mode for race starts?)
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u/Admiral_Hipper_ May 23 '22
Almost every driver uses the left most lights as DRS indicators, so it’s likely Zhou does the same but like you said it could be a different UI setting specific for race starts that he likes.
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u/c62899 May 23 '22
The grinding noise you mentioned could also possibly be a gear sync issue, Verstappen said his poor start at Imola was a gear sync problem.
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u/PocketSizedRS May 23 '22
The sound sounded a lot like wheel/axle "hop." I've heard it in a few F1 starts, my understanding is that its caused by a combination of the tire rapidly losing and regaining traction, and drivetrain lash. Very unpleasant from the drivers seat and (in some cars, idk about f1) can cause drivetrain damage due to the massive load spikes if it gets bad enough. Goes away as soon as the tires hook up though.
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u/PocketSizedRS May 23 '22
Also, this is a long shot and might be totally wrong, but the lights may be a camera artifact. Those lights are typically multiplexed. Essentially means they very rapidly flash one after the other, instead of just staying on continuously. It simplifies wiring and is unnoticeable to the driver. But it can sync with the camera's shutter and look really strange. It's most obvious in bright light since the shutter isnt open as long. Notice how the lights seem to very gradually brighten and then dim over the course of several seconds, definitely doesn't look normal.
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u/ToineMP May 23 '22
I see he's learned how to start from his teammate
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u/exumaan May 24 '22
His teammate has had pretty good starts this year though.
Also we're slowly running out of excuses for Zhou, dude's performances have been terrible since Bahrain.
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u/herpderpmcflerp May 23 '22
Shifting seems hard on his neck. More so than the average team. Could just be me though?
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u/ency6171 May 23 '22
This is the first time I noticed it. Do all drivers experience those jolts on the first few gear shifts?
That can't be comfortable.
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u/peacefulassassin May 23 '22
Is this due to software ? Or can it be a design flaw ?
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u/-Spoony May 24 '22
The team commented that it was due to oscillations of the driveshaft earlier this season. I understood torsional oscillations which could cause inconsistent biting of the clutch plates under high torque.
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u/davesim24 May 24 '22
Could it be that the gears lost sync? I remember verstappen having similar problems in the past
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u/faratto_ May 23 '22
Zhou still doesn't know how to start, it's weird but not so much all things considered
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u/Not_Repsol May 24 '22
Wired like there’s a wire hanging somewhere? I can’t see anything in the video
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