r/F1Technical • u/karolis_7 • Dec 16 '21
Regulations Mercedes say they won’t pursue appeal of Abu Dhabi stewards decision, as FIA announce investigation
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-mercedes-wont-pursue-appeal-of-abu-dhabi-stewards-decision-as-fia.53UcGzDl9H2Ae3zMnsTX4w.html•
u/Noname_Maddox Ross Brawn Dec 16 '21
Understand this post is far from technical.
But since this story has dominated this sub for the past 5 days hopefully we can now put it to bed and move on.
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u/kavinay John Barnard Dec 16 '21
I think it makes sense. It's such a weird feeling to be so deeply into the gearhead and data aspect of the sport and then have the rug pulled out from under you on the title decider where none of that minutia mattered due to the regs being modified on the fly.
I mean none of the weird little performance details we go on about really matter if Abu Dhabi-style officiating becomes accepted.
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u/HerpDerpenberg Dec 16 '21
Well, the ruling is that no regs were modified "on the fly" the race director has final say. Mercedes is just going to look for more clarifications in the rules.
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u/realtop25 Dec 17 '21
We got an amazing mano y mano 1 lap shootout championship decider. Think about it, every little fussy little detail everybody on both the teams pry over all culminated into the ultimate showdown of who's faster
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u/kavinay John Barnard Dec 17 '21
lol, no. You can't make a call on a rules option that won't exist until it's engineered out of no where.
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u/Captain_Case Dec 16 '21
Very technical
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u/skend24 Dec 16 '21
yeah I hate it. It is clearly technical sub, there are multiple normal f1 subs, so why not post there? It is similar to people announcing Max as champion on... f1 game sub, and people were surprised why some other people had problem with that. Stick. To. The. Correct. Subs.
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u/touchofginger Dec 16 '21
Definitely true but F1Technical seems to be the only place where reasonable discussions regarding F1 can take place. And all of this seems to hinge on the technical interpretation of the rule book
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u/tmortn Dec 16 '21
Torn on this one. Changing results after the fact would suck and not be what anyone (at least anyone being reasonable) wants. I think what we all really want is for them to get a chance to rewind and do it again, and get it right this time. Granted... what would be "right" differs for a lot of people. Here is my take.
The fundamental issue to me is that Merc Strategy was informed by the regs which the RD over rode in a manner obviously intended to give the audience a more exciting end than finishing under the safety car. Secondarily it was a non zero safety risk increase to make the calculated risk to short cut the established reg in favor of this way to finish the race. If Merc knows this is going to happen then they put Lewis on fresh tires track position be damned because he stood zero chance of legitimately keeping Max behind for that last lap. But it shouldn't have happened. Lewis was not the only driver negatively impacted... just the most eye catching given the circumstances. Why other teams were not in line with Mercedes on the appeal is puzzling to me. Guess they just don't want to rock the boat and are "reading the room" better than Merc.
This precedent of the RD directly over ruling on the fly a regulation governing safety car procedures is something I find fantastically dangerous. This season had a lot of questionable no calls that I think have been slowly amping up the danger quotient... but this one takes the cake. I think the teams/drivers/stewards/RD have gotten a bit complacent about the nature of racing these cars thanks to the fantastic improvements in safety. I think they are at seropis risk of losing some of the margin of safety that has been painfully gained.
Now... was the call Masi made dangerous in this particular case? Probably not. The risk I see here is more in establishing this precedent that the RD can (and will/should going forward?) make perfect safety protocol change decisions in the heat of the moment for more exciting finishes rather than relying on the regulations that apply and were hammered out over time and not established "on the fly". As I read them, the RD god clause is there to handle situations the regulations do not cover and to provide for a clear voice of authority should a completely unconsidered emergency arise. And as such is an entirely reasonable catch all clause. That was CLEARLY not the case here. The only difference in this situation to all the other times the Safety car has been deployed under the current regs was the fact the DC hung in the balance and the manner in which the reg was partially applied makes that blindingly obvious it was the determining factor in why Masi did what he did. In the heat of the moment the RD decided short changing the procedures (DESIGNED TO KEEP EVERYONE SAFE) in favor of a racing lap with an unknown calculated risk being accepted to accomplish it was the way to go.
If Masi's call really caused no additional safety concern... then the reg needs to be re-written. IE if it was perfectly safe then it is always safe to do so. A safety reg that only applies when it doesn't cause an anticlimatic finish is not much of a reg. And a RD increasing risk in overriding an established reg that clearly covers the situation at hand because applying it fully would be "boring" or "anticlimatic" is just incredibly reckless no matter how small he THINKS the risk is. That just is not a time to be changing the protocol that was presumably established for a good reason. In addition to making sure it is reliably safe, I imagine another reason for the way the reg is written is ensuring teams can make strategy calls based on a known procedure to be followed rather than having to guess how the RD feels about it on a given day.
Should he be Fired for this specific decision? I don't know. The clause giving him the power to make a call is there. We are human... and I think the scenario as it played out in this race is something of a RD|F1 "Kobayashi Maru" situation. Latifi crashing when he did put the championship in the RD hands whether he wanted it or not. Lots of things influenced the championship over the season and it could have swung it either way the entire year on any number of things. But going into this race it was even stevens other than the tie breaker. And the RD got handed a shit burger to end it. As a fan I agree with the spirit of the decision in not wanting the race to end under the safety car. However, I vehemently disagree with over riding the clearly applicable safety car protocol regulation to achieve it for the reasons gone into at length above. In hindsight I think a red flag would have been the better choice... and probably just as controversial as using a Red Flag to make sure the race ended racing is not why you use a Red Flag (Current regs at least). But at least it doesn't disadvantage someone making strategy calls based on expecting the existing regs to be fully enforced. Ironically... this would be a far more dangerous call than what he did I think. 1 lap race with it all on the line? We get enough 1st lap of the race incidents and in this case everyone would be dialed up past "11". Recipe for disaster. But it is an established risk that is accepted.
Should Merc have continued with the appeal? I think so. They made their strategy call based on the reg and Masi short changing it clearly disadvantaged their driver. The situation with Sainz and the rest of the field is EQUALLY important though understandably in the background in this. Ferarri should be on the appeal with them at least and probably Aston for Stroll. But I understand why they stood down and no one else is doing anything other than grumbling. I also do suspect some back door conversations going on for the panel to be announced and Merc to drop this. My hot take after the race was the only likely outcome would be a massive reg roto rooter in the off season with regard to safety car protocols. Any discussion of over turning race results would be a massive Fan failure and F1 has enough issues there that it would be a very cold day in hell before they did something that stupid. Ideally I hope we will see the addition of specific verbiage to make sure races do not end under the Saftey car as long as there is time left on the clock to run the event. The problem is... with the 100L fuel limit they can't extend the race. So I suspect this is going to require Red flagging the race rather than safety car if an incident happens to merit it with X laps to go.... or if the field is under a safety car with X laps to go a Red Flag is automatically thrown with the discussion to be on what X should be. And you are probably just hosed with no solutions if it happens on the last lap.
As for the DC. I was in the camp this year was a toss up before the Saudi race was even run, and with this finish... this season goes down as a tie in my book and we carry the stakes over to next year for double or nothing, electric Verhamilussle boogaloo. Shame we are not keeping the same cars as it is going to be a crap shoot if we get such a close competition again between those two.
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u/touchofginger Dec 16 '21
This is a well thought out argument, the only thing that I find wrong is the assumption that any reasonable fan would not want the results overturned. I do not understand why it would be wrong for the results to be overturned. The FIA had the opportunity to do so immediately after the race and mitigate the backlash but chose to provide a dubious interpretation of the rules in order to support the decision they made. This is entirely on the FIA and sucks for all parties involved.
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u/tmortn Dec 16 '21
I was thinking mostly in terms of an over turn in weeks to months from now... hell possibly in the midst of the next season. It would be farcical in the extreme no matter how "Right". However...a "mea culpa" fuster cluck post race flip? Yea I think that may have had a chance to work. At least it would have been more in the moment and a part of the proceedings of the day.... and very fitting of the season. But even that, literally going into a room post race and coming out handing the trophy to the guy that didn't cross the line first as the race ended would have been equally F'ed up if you ask me.
Masi muffed a moment that can't be gotten back and that will in all likely hood never be seen again, and there are no good paths forward from the moment he did it. I think if I was writing the script for it I would have had Bert Mylander refuse to turn his lights off and enter the pits because A) all lapped cars hadn't passed him and B) he hadn't gotten to the end of the lap following them passing him if they had. Then we would all be cheering and villifying the safety car driver that decided the WDC by insisting on following the regs after the RD screwed the pooch trying to circumvent them. Should he have followed orders? I can hear the cheering and gnashing of teeth now :-)
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u/touchofginger Dec 16 '21
Yeah once they made that decision it was game over, but I hate the idea that it's now Mercedes responsibility to save the image of the sport after the FIA being wholly responsible for this debacle. But your points are well thought out and articulated and this is why I appreciate that this discussion was in F1 Technical despite being off topic
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u/tmortn Dec 16 '21
Thanks. Apologies if it is off topic. I was thinking with the potential impact of "flexible" application of regs on team strategy calls that would have it in play, hence why the post was left up. While not part of the engineering of the car, the strategy support process is I think highly technical in nature. This throws it for a loop if you have this wild card potential in play "if circumstances merit it". How do you make reliable calls on strategy with a rouge RD selectively enforcing regs? Based on the FIA apparent double down on that RD god clause applying... is any reg safe?
Agree it shouldn't be Merc's responsibility. But the lack of other teams standing with them, even those with legit beefs for the impact to their drivers is damning of Merc's history in the paddock since rejoining the field. If Lewis had somehow still finished first without foul play I don't think Merc is protesting and talking appeal.... but it would be every bit as warranted. Only fighting for what benefits you is understandable... but it has a cost. I think Merc is paying it now and the FIA is dodging a bullet because of it. If the whole paddock had marched to the stewards with protests | threats of appeals and going WTF I think this goes down differently. But that is not the world we race in.
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u/touchofginger Dec 16 '21
To the point about Merc not fighting if Lewis pulls off the win I mean obviously they wouldn't, there would be nothing they would be trying to change. I could see Horner throwing shit at the wall trying to get something to stick, maybe asking for a review of T6 lap 1? But as for the other teams not standing with them who would have something they were trying to fix? Sainz could have scored more points but that leaves him in the same spot, AT could have caught Sainz but RB won't let them do anything about that. Who's left? Maclaren maybe think Lando could have caught them.
I don't think it's that damning that other teams aren't protesting, I'm sure every team is beyond confused as to what the rules are right now though
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u/tmortn Dec 16 '21
The confusion about the inconsistent application of the rules is exactly what they should all be complaining about IMHO regardless of whether or not they benefit or were impacted by this case. Because next time it could go the other way. The FIA allowing a precedent to be set that the application of the regs are subject to the RD decisions in the heat of the moment is insane from the standpoint of the integrity of the competition, and the teams should all be up in arms about it. The FIA should be as well... if a critical mass of fans lose faith in the competition F1 is in deep shit. But I think in this case most are thinking Merc is being a sore loser. Had Merc weighed in on cases previously where they did not directly stand to benefit (or possibly if it even hurt them) because it was "the right thing for the sport" I think they would have had some backup here. The fact I agree with you it is obvious they would not have objected if they won despite what Masi did being just as wrong is not the way things should be. Least the way I see it. What happened was wrong regardless of who won. Been accused of being a bit of an unrealistic idealist in things like this.
This is a "who watches the watchers" problem. The RD can punish teams for not following the regs but who punishes the RD for not correctly applying them? The FIA is hardly impartial in this and there really is no independent review option that I am aware of. Thankfully it is a fairly unimportant case of this in the grand scheme of things. Its just a car race after all. Just hate seeing this shit in my Sunday entertainment as well as in "real news" so often of late.
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u/touchofginger Dec 16 '21
What cases are you talking about? The pink Mercedes case is probably the best example. I don't think the teams are looking to get involved with the enormous headache that this will be and are counting on Merc to do it. I don't think the lack of a Ferrari or Maclaren appeal is indicative of anything
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u/In_Thy_Image Dec 18 '21
I was wondering, is there a publicly available audio of the communication between the Safety Car and Race Control? What was the reaction of the SC crew after being told they aren’t letting all the lapped cars pass and that they are turning in on the same lap? Surely that conversation would be very indicative.
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u/Gradual_Bro Dec 16 '21
The investigation is to determine future ways of handling similar incidents and is not about deciding who the winner was.
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u/benerophon Dec 16 '21
I read the line about holding the FIA accountable as saying that they won't settle for less than a statement from the review saying that a) the rules were incorrectly applied and b) if they had been applied Hamilton would have won. They probably stand more chance of getting that from a review that has no potential impact on the awarding of the championship than from an appeal that would create a very messy debate about what to do if it was upheld.
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u/Gradual_Bro Dec 16 '21
The investigation is to determine future ways of handling similar incidents and is not about deciding who the winner was.
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u/iaregraeme Dec 16 '21
Tasteful statement from Mercedes.
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u/IronCanTaco Dec 16 '21
You know that this is just PR bull because lawyers painted them a picture of how much it will cost and what are the chances of winning, right?
My guess would be that at best they could disregard the last race ... which would still make Verstappen the champion.
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Dec 16 '21
A lot of their statements seem to mention Lewis and others seem to get the vibe Lewis is pressing them not to pursue it further. Doesn’t seem like he wants to win that way, and while this is already bad enough, retroactively taking and giving a championship months later would seriously damage the sport.
Max winning WDC and beating the perennially unbeatable Hamilton was the best thing for the sport at this juncture where F1 is exploding in emerging markets, it’s just a shame Masi wiped his ass with the rulebook all season long.
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u/baked_ham Dec 16 '21
taking and giving a championship
months laterwould seriously damage the sport.That’s what they did to Lewis on the last lap of the race. The damage is done - it’s no longer sport, it’s clearly entertainment when the race director ignores safety regulations. I will never place bets on F1 again, it’s like betting on WWE.
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u/joeydaws Dec 16 '21
I think you’re being melodramatic - it was a bad decision, but in no way is F1 a rigged sport. All sports have bad calls from refs, this is really no different
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u/baked_ham Dec 16 '21
Bad calls based on judgement happen in every sport, I completely agree. Deciding how to penalize a racing incident for example
This was clear ignoring of the published rules. Like if they decided on the last drive of the Super Bowl that for one team first downs are only 5 yards and they don’t have a play clock. Or in hockey if they let one team have an extra skater and leave their goalie in. I mean that last minute comeback would be exciting, right?
Ignoring your written rules is a whole different problem than making a bad judgement call.
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Dec 16 '21
[deleted]
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u/baked_ham Dec 16 '21
Actually the sportsbooks refunded my money because they agree the result was illegitimate.
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u/Gradual_Bro Dec 16 '21
The investigation is to determine future ways of handling similar incidents and is not about deciding who the winner was.
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u/ADSWNJ Dec 17 '21
Disagree. I doubt this is a money play. Max winning the championship was not Red Bull's fault or doing, so there is no good cure to the injustice that Mercedes felt from the loss of the WDC. Could Mercedes have won in court and taken the WDC? Maybe, but then that would not have looked good for Lewis or Mercedes. Rather, they wanted to push for the full investigation of the rules, to make sure this hokey bullshit would never be able to be played again by Race Control. I see a deal being negotiated here between FIA and Mercedes, where FIA does not get their asses handed to them in court, Mercedes gets to congratulate Red Bull and Max (through gritted teeth), and we all get a better Sporting Regs before March,
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u/TheDentateGyrus Dec 16 '21
Do legal fees for off-season challenges count in the cost cap? Because if not, they have $300-400 million a year they aren’t spending compared to prior years. So I think they can afford attorneys.
Also they probably have attorneys on staff since they brought one to the stewards meeting after the race. So then it costs them nothing extra. No?
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u/IronCanTaco Dec 16 '21
They can certainly afford, but they still have to answer for the spendings and some people might look at it like an unneccesary spending. They wont the constructor, that’s where the money is.
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u/sphintero Dec 16 '21
A deal was made between MB and FiA
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u/Comprehensive-Ear896 Dec 16 '21
This is what I think too, I wonder if it is something going forward
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u/ADSWNJ Dec 17 '21
"Toto - how big an undertray do you need for your low-rake to be 100% perfect for 2022?"
"XX.YYYYYYYNNN m2 please, and for this we concede the litigation"
"Fancy a public inquiry over the racing regs?"
"Yeah, deal"
"Deal"
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u/eman_ssap Dec 16 '21
Oh well, hope they got a big settlement from the fia but the non disclosure agreements will mean we’ll never find out
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u/stq66 Gordon Murray Dec 16 '21
On what grounds should they get a settlement?
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u/eman_ssap Dec 16 '21
They should get either any or all the FIA’s money. Mercedes’ call. Seems like the fairest solution
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u/stq66 Gordon Murray Dec 16 '21
What are you dreaming about? They won the constructor‘s title anyway so they get the majority of the price money. A driver‘s title would not have changed anything in this regard.
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u/eman_ssap Dec 16 '21
It’s an any/all joke mate, take a breath and a sip of water
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u/ADSWNJ Dec 17 '21
"Settlement"
Give us back our appeal fees please.
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u/eman_ssap Dec 17 '21
Appeal fee is small change, toto probably sorted that from his daily allowance.
The prestige and marketability of being double champs in monetary terms is almost priceless so yes, there was definitely a financial part to this.
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u/Nappi22 Eduardo Freitas Dec 16 '21
Not suprising. It likely wasn't the decision up of the F1 Team. A few big names in the industry(not only Daimler, but the other teams and their sponsors, too) will have advised Toto on this decison, let's say with very "strong" argmuents.
But that will be something we will never know and will be up to our tin foil hats.
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u/someonehasmygamertag Dec 16 '21
I think it’s far more likely the FIA made a deal with Merc. Daimler probably value winning both WC every year of an era over what some people think of Toto.
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u/JBXGANG Dec 16 '21
Since they’re not pursuing further appeal this means they admit that nothing wrong was done and their complaints were entirely baseless.
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u/developerbryan Dec 16 '21
I don’t think so. It’s just not going to give them the WDC even if the appeal works.
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u/JBXGANG Dec 16 '21
I just mean since everyone is so about ‘by the book’ with all this, that also applies to the appeals process and if they aren’t lodging a formal appeal then it means they accept the situation as it stands.
Of course I’m being a little cheekily pedantic there, but I do think that should be the end of the banal discussions about Abu Dhabi; if Mercedes aren’t fussed enough to press their case anymore, neither should anyone else.
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u/Change_Request Dec 16 '21
Nice statement on the situation. I can understand their frustration, but there is a really fine line between being frustrated/upset over a last moment loss and being a sore loser for an extended period. Mercedes was treading dangerously close to the latter.
I think most would agree that there are some things that need reviewed and made more "robust" when it comes to F1 rules as a whole. The finish of that race is just one of many situations that should be reviewed to increase the fairness and competition. They can start with creating systems that finish racing under green (like this week), stop team principles (and drivers) from communicating with decisions makers mid-race, and fix the "seconds" penalty system that is unfairly tilted against most teams on the grid.
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u/Mosh83 Dec 17 '21
Is it possible the FIA had some sort of "technical dirt" on Mercedes? Something that was maybe on the edge of regulations, which they could've pulled if Mercedes was willing to go down the legal rabbithole?
Maybe the engine upgrades were pushing the regulations a bit, maybe that wing did in fact flex? I know it is purely speculation, but Mercedes deciding not to appeal for "the good of the sport" may be a facade.
Could be that either they got something from the FIA, or the FIA had negotiating material on their own side.
Or would it now be too late for the FIA to pull anything off?
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Dec 16 '21
"Let's push for the improvement of the regulations only when we lose."
The rules are very outdated, just let the lap cars drop back or overtake the other cars to let them in the position order ASAP. I hate the safety car stealing from the racing laps.
I think the best thing Masi maybe could have done was redflagging the race immediately after Latifi crash.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
There has to be very clear safety issues that can’t be reasonably fixed during a safety car for that. If he’d red flagged it he’d have also got shit unless the barrier needed replacing or the car was ablaze.
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u/Wrathuk Dec 16 '21
lets be frank here that isn't true they had a 10 minute red flag in saudi so they could run out and look at the barriers not repair look at the barriers.
the calls for safety cars and red flags all season long have been very questionable.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
You’re literally backing up my point. In SA the tech pro barrier had a car hit it in an area that had been hit multiple times that’s weekend. It was a clear safety issues. Latifi clipping a concrete wall didn’t warrant anything like that level of inspection or repair.
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u/Wrathuk Dec 16 '21
No i'm really not in SA the barrier didn't need any work to it they need a quick inspection to check the barrier was fine and they could go racing they could have done that behind the SC.
also there is no min level of what is required for them to red flag the race it's 100 percent a call for Masi.
the point if he could call a pointless red flag in SA for a safety inspection he could have red flagged the race to clears Latifi's car.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
They have to demonstrate a clear safety issue that can’t be resolved under safety car, it’s in the regulations. That barrier needed inspecting, otherwise next time a car hits it and it doesn’t perform properly the FIA are liable.
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u/Wrathuk Dec 16 '21
they don't have to demonstrate anything the rule is very clearly open to the race directors judgement.
50.1 If Competitors or officials are placed in immediate physical danger by cars running on the track, and the clerk of the course deems circumstances are such that the track cannot be negotiated safely, even behind the safety car, the sprint qualifying session or the race will be suspended. Should it become necessary to suspend the sprint qualifying session or the race, the clerk of the course will order red flags to be shown at all marshal posts and the abort lights to be shown at the Line.
it would very very very easy for masi to justify a red flag on marshall safety grounds.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
Nothing from Abu Dhabi meets those criteria though
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u/Wrathuk Dec 16 '21
car and marshalls on the track of course it does masi can easy red flag the race because HE deemed it was needed. the rule doesn't set any min level of risk, the only thing required is that in masi's judgement it was needed.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
That doesn’t list Marshall’s on track, that’s what double yellows are for. That says “in immediate physical danger”. They’re not in danger during a safety car as all the cars are together on the other side of the track. As we’ve seen with his safety car call it can be challenged. Calling a red flag just for the sake of it guarantees a protest from anyone negatively affected
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u/shniken Dec 16 '21
Speaking of rule changes. Why do safety car laps have to count as racing laps? This isn't the first time a late safety car is rushed off to get a racing lap finish and it won't be the last.
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u/scuderia91 Ferrari Dec 16 '21
That’s kind of the point of the safety car, keeps the race running just at a reduced pace. In the modern era they have to count as the teams only fuel the cars as little as possible. You have a race with a few safety cars and you could end up doing 10+ laps burning fuel
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u/Pahasapa66 Dec 16 '21
When Max runs Lewis off the track next year Mercedes will only have themselves to blame.
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u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
What does one have to do with the other?
It's a tasteful statement by merc, I don't know about anyone else, but my respect for them has gone up quite a bit.
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u/TheBigMotherFook Dec 16 '21
Yeah, Merc is being very careful and calculated about their approach to this. Right now they have a ton of fan support and presumably support from the other teams/drivers, hence the investigation, but if they lose that they will lose their leverage over the FIA.
They're making sure they're doing it by the book because that's what the fans are screaming for, not surprisingly it's working.
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u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Yeah I think Merc right now is doing everything to maximize their efforts to change something. They are in a way stronger position to do so if they can convincingly say that they don't do it for their own benefit (as by keeping up the appeal to make Lewis champion).
They can now say - "look, we don't directly benefit from the changes but it's the right thing to do" - and no one can / will or should argue with that.
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u/TheBigMotherFook Dec 16 '21
Honestly, it's a brilliant and refreshing approach after all the drama and off-the-cuff actions from this season. This feels thought out and strategic.
I do think you called it out, if they push the "this is for the benefit of the sport" angle it garners far more support and will ultimately result in some change. however, I do believe that Mercs actions are partially altruistic, everyone there loves F1 and racing to their core and did lose some faith in the sport after Abu Dhabi. If they benefit in the form of getting rules or procedures changed to ensure an event like this doesn't happen again, then great they get something out of it. Although, I would like to point out that most rules/laws are written in response to an event, including pretty much every rule in F1 (outside of safety/tech rules). If Merc is successful I do think the sport will benefit greatly from their actions.
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u/stq66 Gordon Murray Dec 16 '21
Not really. They have withdrawn their appeal because the backlash would have been enormous on the brand. And it was apparently Lewis who told them to hold their horses and withdraw (or not proceed with) the protest. It’s tough luck and heart wrenching for them to lose on the last lap of a race but it would have been a sour taste as well if the race had been finished under FCY.
I always loathed the Indy500s and other raceswhere this happened. Sure a red flag may have been fairer but then due to the sh*tty rule about working under red flag conditions, the playing field would have been skewed again. RBR took the gamble with new tyres in the hope of either catching Lewis on track or even better with a FCY. It was a gamble and it could have backfired. And Lewis was save at least twice this year (und more over the previous years) by safety cars and also wrongdoings on his behalf which hadn’t been punished.2
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
What's your problem with the statement then? And don't divert from the topic by throwing platitudes and unrelated topics out there
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u/stq66 Gordon Murray Dec 16 '21
I just said that it was not tasteful but calculated. And put their reasoning for the whole action into context.
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u/Pahasapa66 Dec 16 '21
A team without a backbone to support their position will always be taken advantage of.
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u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
That's one of the more ridiculous takes I've heard in all of that. Quite a unique one too.
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u/Pahasapa66 Dec 16 '21
It's been one that has been true through history.
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u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Let me guess, if I ask you now for an example you'll either hide behind further general statements or will have no example that links to such an instance, right?
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u/Pahasapa66 Dec 16 '21
Sure, but it sounds like your mind is made up so there's little use for me to respond at all.
Schmaucher punts Hill off the road during a championship decider in 1995. Although both cars DNF, Schmaucher wins the WDC by one point. Although it was clear that Schumacher had done it deliberately, which he admited to in his later years, the FIA, F1 and Williams, who Hill drove for, did nothing. The next year, Schmaucher went to Ferrari and Hill in the Williams won the WDC, though not without a considerable amount of combat with competitors. The year following, Villeneuve was in the Williams during the championship decider. Schmaucher ran into him but made two mistakes. First, it was obvious that he did it on purpose. Second, Villeneuve survived and finished the race. Schmaucher did not. In the end, the FIA nulled Schmaucher's entire season, but it wouldn't have been necessary had Williams contested Hill's incident. F1 competition is about finding an unfair advantage over other competitors. The unfair advantage over Merc next year is that drivers think that the FIA will rule against them in most cases.
1
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Hill in the Williams won the WDC, though not without a considerable amount of combat with competitors
Where did the stuff the year prior hurt him?
All other things you said are not related to appearing weak - you even argued against yourself since Villneuve and Williams didn't protest, it was done anyway. So after not protesting for Hill they still got their way when the same happened to Villneuve.
1
u/Pahasapa66 Dec 16 '21
The new Schmaucher Ferrari was a back marker till the end of the year when it couldn't challenge for the championship.
No, an official protest in the Hill incident was never done. Because it wasn't, Schmaucher tried to do it again. If Williams had made a large to-do about Hill, they wouldn't have seen the Villenuve incident.
1
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Massively disagree but you still fail to explain how protesting the FIAs behavior would stop max commiting penalty worth offenses. There is zero connection
0
u/ADSWNJ Dec 17 '21
Max did his best this season. It's just the more mature driver backed off each time and lived to fight the next race. If the clarified rules state that running cars off the track is how we want Rollerball - err Formula 1 - to work, then bring it on.
-3
u/prabal34 Dec 16 '21
So much for fighting for what's right.
1
u/thesingularity004 Dec 16 '21
I'd like to see the rest of Masi and FIA's judgement calls all through the season. There's a hell of a lot more than this last lap that went questionably wrong.
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Dec 16 '21
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5
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Which is good. Why are you complaining?
1
u/Johnyysmith Dec 16 '21
Please point out the complaint. Is this the reason for an unreasonable number of down votes simply for an observation?
1
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Your comment reads like you think they should have disrupted the winning ceremonies with the appeal and then pulled it back after.
That's what people downvoted because it's petty. Merc chose the high road with their approach and people respect that
1
u/Johnyysmith Dec 16 '21
It's not petty, it's just an observation. But I guess people will read into stuff whatever they want. I suggest you stop guessing what people think and just read the words
1
u/darksemmel Dec 16 '21
Hey, now you sound like the FIA - "we are sorry that the fans misunderstood what happened.."
If you get downvoted like that, then I am not the only one who "guessed" wrong. Maybe your wording was poor, if you feel misunderstood. Just food for thought.
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u/Omk4r123 Colin Chapman Dec 16 '21
Transcript of the statement