r/F1Technical • u/marcus_aurelius_53 • Apr 18 '21
Question/Discussion Checo gets a front wing adjustment during red flag pit stop?
Looks like Red Bull swapped a front wing element onPerez’s car, during the red flag pit stop. What are the rules regarding modifications? Is it Parc ferme conditions?
27
u/Stands_While_Poops Apr 18 '21
Nothing wrong there but the steering wheel change while serving a penalty surprised me
15
u/Aberracus Apr 19 '21
That was after the penalty,
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u/Stands_While_Poops Apr 19 '21
Wasn't the wheel off before the penalty was over? I thought they wouldn't be able to do anything to the car including removal of any parts.
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u/Gurpa Apr 19 '21
I mean, the mechanics didn't touch it until after the 10s. Seems to me like it's one of those things that technically speaking he could do it outside of a pitstop.
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u/MEGAMAN2312 Adrian Newey Apr 19 '21
No one touched Perez's car in the 10 secs. Perez is allowed to remove his own steering wheel and hold it in his hand because there is nothing really stopping him from doing that. However, the mechanic can only touch it after 10secs and if you watch, this is exactly what happened.
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u/marcus_aurelius_53 Apr 19 '21
I saw that too. Seemed like the driver removed the steering wheel before the penalty expired, but no one else touched the car until after.
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u/eggplantsforall Apr 19 '21
Yup, that's allowed. The team can't work on the car during the penalty, but the driver is allowed to remove the wheel in anticipation.
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u/luc3002 Apr 18 '21
Please can someone explain why lapped drivers were allowed to unlap themselves after the red flag, I'm new to F1 so this seems very bizarre to give away the advantage
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u/Meaisk Apr 18 '21
Let's say you are in P9, 3 seconds behind P8. You've been lapped, P8 not yet. Then a SC or Red Flag comes out, and if you wouldn't be allowed to unlap yourself, you would have a entire lap gap to P8.
So they do it to keep the race(ing) alive.
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Apr 19 '21
[deleted]
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u/rjvs Apr 19 '21
Along with not penalising p9 (in the above example), it also means that if p9 has been lapped by the leader but not yet by p2, the race between p1 & p2 is kept alive instead of having p9 starting between them. If this was to happen, p9 would have blue flags flying immediately to indicate that they have to let p2 pst within 2 corners, which would be dangerous on a restart where things are inherently more chaotic.
The whole concept of a restart is unfair because gaps that might have been strategically created at great risk or whatever are all collapsed. This is why the virtual safety car was invented (which still has consequences) but it can only be applied in pretty limited circumstances, so we fall back to this.
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u/hobovision Apr 19 '21
Sometimes your the lucky one who gets a lap back and sometimes your an unlucky one who has the guy who was 20s behind now on your tail on the restart.
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u/SirLoremIpsum Apr 19 '21
It is so you don't end up with a situation where the grid at the restart is
P1 -> P2 -> P18 -> P19 -> P3 -> P20 -> P4 and onwards.
This grid at the restart would mean that P3 has a significant disadvantage to keeping up with P1 and P2, and P4 would be unlikely to make any kind of close racing with P3.
Like do you have a blue flag at turn 1?
And the safety aspect to it - turn 1 is always a little dangerous when everyone is racing for position. Now you're adding in back makers that have track position but aren't racing, slower cars bunched in with faster cars. That is not a good recipe.
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
To add to the other replies they have to drive the distance around the track as opposed to just dropping back so that they have traveled the whole race distance. That also effects fuel load.
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u/EnlightenedOne789 Apr 18 '21
Since it was a red flag, whether the race started behind the safety car (which it did) or it was a standing start (where the cars line up on the grid, in the positions they last were before the red flag), all the lapped cars are just gonna end up at the back of the pack. If those lapped cars hadn't been allowed to unlap themselves, they may cause problems for the race leader or the front-runners. So it's a means of a "reset". Make no mistake, there's no real advantage, because people will still restart the race in their respective positions. Lapped cars can just become pests to the frontrunners, so they're dealt with in a way, where they don't disrupt other drivers who may be racing for net track position. Hope this helps.
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u/element515 Apr 19 '21
Lol, you can't seriously say there's no advantage. Your own words say it's a reset. Hamilton was saved by the Safety car/red flag. He gained back an entire lap and all of his rivals in front of him lost their gap. If the race kept going, I'm not sure if Hamilton would have even made it onto the podium at all.
1
u/ayomyhibba Apr 19 '21
the reason there isn’t a real advantage is that the safety car/red flag compresses the field but that also means that for lapped cars increases their time to the cars ahead. e.g. stroll was lapped but sainz ahead wasn’t. there would’ve been maybe 20 seconds or so between them (just a number, not specifically true). when the safety car/red flag occurs, the field is compressed behind the safety car so that 20 seconds gap becomes a whole lap. meanwhile, the cars not lapped gain a significant advantage by catching up to max who was far ahead of anyone else. why should the non lapped cars again an advantage while you decide to leave the lapped cars at a significant disadvantage.
also as everyone else has mentioned, by not letting lapped cars unlap themselves, the restart becomes a mess. the grid would’ve looked like 1. max (p1), 2. stroll (p7), 3. raikkonen (p8) with cars fighting for the position on track but not actually in the race because some of them are a lap down.
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u/element515 Apr 19 '21
Why would lapped cars lose more time? The safety car picks up first place. Anyone lapped also closes their gap back down to the leader and are closer to unlapoing themselves.
And I understand the rule to let lapped cars pass, but that’s still an advantage they are gaining. It makes for a more complicated start, but those lapped cars would instantly have blue flags as well. In the end, the whole point was that Hamilton got lucky. I have no problem with how the rules work and they make sense, but it’s silly to say he gained no advantage. You list out the advantage yourself in your own argument.
3
u/Benlop Apr 19 '21
You can probably imagine the incredible mess a restart would be with instantaneous blue flags for half the field on a restart, in addition to potentially killing the race of anyone on the lead lap unlucky enough to find himself behind fighting backmarkers.
It would be a) incredibly dangerous and b) prejudicial to the race.
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u/element515 Apr 19 '21
I don't have to imagine, that used to be the rules a few years ago. And I'm not sure why we think I'm arguing that the rule doesn't have a purpose. OP was saying that this rule did not give Hamilton an advantage. It did, and with it he made it back to second after a crash that would have normally ruined his race.
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u/wesleysmalls Apr 20 '21
that used to be the rules a few years ago.
No. The rules were always like this; cars were allowed to unlap themselves under safety car conditions.
This rule was also applicable in red flag situations in races previous years. It was all fine then, but now that it involves Hamilton it suddenly is an issue?
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u/ayomyhibba May 12 '21
i forgot to reply sorry aha..i’ll try to explain in simpler terms.
lap cars lose an unfair amount of time to the cars directly ahead during a safety car.
for example, imagine if someone is in p12 and one minute ahead of p13. (not realistic, just chosen to simplify analogy) meanwhile, p13 has just been lapped by the leader, and then safety car happens.
now what happens is everyone has to follow the sc delta preset time while the leader has to follow the safety car. i.e. everyone is going faster than the safety car speed. that means that p13 who is behind p1, has to drive super slowly, while p12 drives at the much faster sc delta and catches up to the back of the pack. when the pack has bunched up, p12 is the very last car, while p13 is 2nd. before, p12 was 1 minute ahead of p13. now p12 is 1 lap ahead of p13. how is that fair? p12 gained a whole lap advantage over p13 by doing nothing. they gained that 1 lap advantage because the safety car forced the lapped cars to slow down first.
basically, it comes down to 2 things. 1. under the safety car, unlapped cars get to catch up to the leader. 2. because of the safety, the lapped cars lose time because they are stuck behind the leader, and can’t follow the other cars and catch up.
therefore, if you allow unlapped cars to catch up to the leader (which is what normally happens under sc), then lapped cars should be allowed to unlap themselves before the restart too because a. they didn’t gain the same advantage that the unlapped cars gained during the safety car and b. the safety car actually slowed them down and they lost time as well. that’s why the rule exists. as well as to make restarts safer because fuck whatever you proposed with p13 starting second.
don’t forget this applies to everyone. max has used this specific situation to go from being a lap down and last in singapore, to points. video
now for why this isn’t a “real” advantage. its because everyone has the same opportunity. yes p13 was a minute behind before, but now is less than a second. but p12 was also behind p11 by some time, and now has caught back up. every car (except for p1) gets the chance to overtake the car in front of them, while simultanously being under threat from the guy behind (except for last place).
basically: advantage: catching up to the car in front of you and potentially overtaking them. disadvantage: guy behind also catches up to you and potentially overtakes you.
there’s no net gain anywhere. your advantage is the same as your disadvantage.
you saw it last year with the redbulls when they had poor starts. they dropped places at the restart and then retook the places. just because its a mercedes driven by lewis doesn’t mean the threat of losing a position isn’t real.
hope that makes it easier to understand.
1
u/Tvoja_Manka Apr 19 '21
There's always going to be someone who ends up coming off better or worse, but in the words of a popular driver:
aahitsthesameforeveryone
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u/Aberracus Apr 19 '21
It not real advantage ? Hamilton unlapped himself, there is no way he could have finished 2nd and leclerc lost 22 second to Norris.
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u/darknight1342 Apr 19 '21
If they hadn't allowed lapped cars to unlap themselves it would have knocked 80% of them out contention for the race and basically turned them into a bunch of mobile chicanes for the rest of the drivers still with a shot of points, not to mention the potential blue flag hell that could occur if some of the top backmarkers start passing unlapped cars in these changeable conditions. It was done to promote cleaner racing and as someone else said "keep the racing alive".
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Apr 19 '21
[deleted]
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u/wesleysmalls Apr 20 '21
Not really. It’s only logical that backpackers will be placed outside of the train. How do blue flags the second we have a green flag make any sense? It’s unnecessarily chaotic.
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u/godweasle Apr 22 '21
I’d let the cars retake their positional order and leave those down a lap, down a lap. Allowing them to unlap because they in a weird order around the track I agree is goofy and absolutely saved Hamilton. If the cars weren’t a billion dollars it’d be like taking fouls at the end of basketball games.
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u/Talal2608 Apr 18 '21
Front wing can be adjusted regardless of Parc Ferme
-5
u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
Front wing cannot be adjusted under Parc Fermé (end of quali to start of race) Parc Fermé ends at the start of the race therefore they can make adjustments during a pit stop. The only time they can make changes to the car between quali and the start of the race is due to weather like the rain before the start of the race today. The tyres you qualified on rule goes out the window as does the two dry compound rule.
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Apr 19 '21
Under Rule 34.2(l), the following adjustments are allowed during pre-race parc ferme:
The aerodynamic set up of the front wing may be adjusted using the existing parts. No parts may be added, removed or replaced.
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u/Tommi97 Apr 18 '21
Front wing can be adjusted under Parc fermé and no, you can't break Parc fermé because of weather changes between quali and race (which is the main argument for those, like me, who think Parc fermé is a stupid rule).
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u/ImTheMountain Apr 18 '21
Parc ferme rules do allow for a "change in climatic conditions" where you are allowed to change engine or brake cooling if the race director declares that climatic conditions have changed vs Q (could be dry vs wet or a big change in ambient temperature e.g. at Bahrain this year). But not suspension setup or other aero components like rear wing.
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u/username_unavailable Apr 19 '21
Also, you can always change like for like. Replacing a wing element is no different than replacing the entire nose.
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u/marcus_aurelius_53 Apr 18 '21
I was surprised to see this work being done. What exactly is allowed? Is it parc ferme conditions? Does that include wings as well as tires?
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u/ImTheMountain Apr 18 '21
It can be changed at any point, including red flags, pit stops, parc ferme
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 18 '21 edited Apr 18 '21
During parc ferme parts can only be replaced with equal or lesser versions of them. you can't replace your damaged front wing with anything but identical or older wing. I might be wrong about the latter, but afaik it is up to the officials to judge these things.
During the race they can pit on first lap and switch the entire aero package. There are no limits (apart from the usual engine, gearbox etc rules), it is just like practice sessions in that regard. Parc ferme is the special period from start of qualy to the start of race.
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u/ImTheMountain Apr 18 '21
This is just about adjusting the front wing angle, no parts are added or removed to the car.
About replacing entire front wings, you can only replace it with an identical one, an older version will incur a penalty.
Edit: Correct, in the race the cars aren't under parc ferme, so you can do whatever you want in a pit stop.
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 18 '21
Yup, it is never used so it never comes up. I've been following F1 since 91 and i stumbled on this little trivia like a year or two ago. And start of qualy is not officially parc ferme rules, they are special rules for qualy that says pretty much the same thing. Parc ferme starts 3 and half hour after qualy, i think it is to allow time for possible fixes, but it is de facto parc ferme from start of qualy to the start of race.
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
It can be changed at any point including red flags, pit stops, BUT NOT UNDER Parc Fermé. Parc fermé ends at the start of the race.
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u/ImTheMountain Apr 18 '21
Sporting regs 34.2 l) "the aerodynamic setup of the front wing may be adjusted using existing parts. No parts may be added, removed, or replaced".
This is why drivers are allowed to change the front wing angle between Quali laps to cope with track evolution throughout Q or if changing compound in quali (e.g. when using the medium tyre in Q2, they would normally run a lower wing angle than soft tyre).
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
They are not under Parc Fermé during quali and therefore free to make changes. They are under Parc Fermé after quali and can no longer make any adjustments until after the start of the race. This is why you will hear in interviews that they focussed their setup more for the race (laps before first pitstop) and took a bit of pain in quali.
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u/TheRealLHOswald Apr 18 '21
No parc ferme starts when you first leave the garage in q1. They can't change rear wing or suspension geometry once you leave the garage in q1 but they can change the front wing angle and obviously the driver can change brake bias and differential settings
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u/laughguy220 Apr 19 '21
Yes you are right as to Parc Fermé starting when they leave the garage for Q1 and suspension setup must be declared and maintained and no adjustments to thec rear wing. I was just trying to keep things simple but it's not a simple sport. There's park fermé and then then there's PARK FERME (should have different names really). Just giving a simple explanation to a new fan that the cars are not locked down during a red flag a la PARK FERME (though I wish they were, no free pit stops a la Stroll last year) and that the teams can make adjustments, repairs, tyre changes under a red flag.
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u/tj1721 Apr 18 '21
Don’t parc ferme conditions end at the start of the race? I’m not entirely sure though.
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
Yes they do, that why they can make changes to the cars during pit stops and red flag stoppages.
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
During a red flag stoppages(and pit stops) the teams are free to work on the cars be it tyres parts repairs or adjustments. Parc fermé ends at the start of the race. The only thing they can't adjust is fuel.
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u/Hoogspannend10kv Apr 18 '21
Thats what i meant, max changed his suspension last year on a redflag
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
They did not change it during a red flag, but between the time the pit lane opened, and the five minute warning on the grid before the start of the race. Parc fermé rule still in force, a red flag has no restrictions on repairs adjustments replacements except for fuel.
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u/Hoogspannend10kv Apr 18 '21
They also changed tiers so ?
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u/DoorDashCrash Apr 18 '21
Tires can be changes. Stroll has a 0 stop race at Monza last year changing tires on a red flag. There was talk of changing it, but the rule stands that a red flag can count as a pit stop.
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u/Benlop Apr 19 '21
To be a bit pedantic, it doesn't mention counting as a pit stop.
The two compound rule just mentions that you have to use two compounds including a mandatory one, and doesn't say anything about how it was done. Hence the opportunity at red flags.
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
No restrictions under red flag aside from fuel.
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u/ImTheMountain Apr 18 '21
That's not correct, see 41.4b of the sporting regs, which details what you are allowed to change under a red flag. Tires are explicitly mentioned as being allowed, but there are many things that you can't change
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u/laughguy220 Apr 18 '21
Just trying to keep it simple for a new fan mate.
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u/Benlop Apr 19 '21
You can't call saying something completely wrong keeping it simple.
"It's part of what's allowed during a red flag" is keeping it simple.
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u/Big-Response9658 Apr 19 '21
Actually even under parc fermé, no major adjustments can be made to cars but you could always make front wing adjustments. Always. A clear example of this is if you qualify on a dry setup and it rains unexpectedly on race day. The freedom to adjust front wing(top parts to be exact) can increase drag on the car to corner better under rainy conditions. So this case, honestly does not need a super in-depth analysis in my opinion but hey i might be completely wrong. So if i assume correctly they probably increased the drag at the start by running a higher wing angle and the stop at the red flag which was tbh the actual turning point between slightly dry and wet conditions was the best time to make the adjustments back to low drag. therefore, reverting back to what was most likely his quali setup
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u/BigPicture365 Apr 21 '21
Isn't it legal to change wing angle during pitstop?
they can change tires during red flag
so then, why not change wing angle during red flag?
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u/HeippodeiPeippo Apr 18 '21 edited Apr 18 '21
Parc ferme rules begin at the start of qualy and ends at the start of the race. After the race has started you can pit, take the car apart, install new exhaust and suspension, go on track, test, then take it apart again.. just like any other session that is not under parc ferme. Good example of this, only conceptually since they have quite different rulesets, is the switch of the entire suspension in the past Le Mans, not because of failure but to speed up brake pads change... We need to venture far from F1 to find any real examples of this, as they obviously do not want to switch major parts during the race.
And using race as an actual testing, being basically a moving obstacle will get reprimanded so we never really see this "freedom" being used. If not literally punished then at least it will put you on the bad guy list of every team and official.. FIA surely has ways to slap teams... if that would happen, as FIA i would march next monday to the factory and demand to see the history of the oil pump valve design and left rear hub CAD logs.. or something equally stupid, wasting their time..
edit: technically, parc ferme start 3 and half hours after qualy has ended but afaik, the the qualy rules are practically the same. edit2: found what was nagging, during qualy you can change wing angles, during parc ferme you can't. Otherwise the rules are the same in both.