r/F1Technical • u/diego_r2000 • May 14 '24
Circuit What is your opinion on chicanes after/before straight lines?
I might be wrong but I’m starting to think chicanes that have straight lines in between tend to make overtakes more difficult. I can only point Imola, Monza and Spain specially. What I feel is that it makes the driver on the front have more advantage during the straight line. In the cases where a chicane is before the straight line, the driver in front would have better exit speeds, and for the cases of a straight line ending on a chicane, the driver in front can defend his position on the curve way more easier since its tighter and will always be faster at that curve. My best example is the chicane they took out on Spain where after they dropped it felt like drivers could get ahead more easily. But I might be biased by the f1 game haha. What are your thoughts on them?
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u/AutomaticSandwich May 14 '24
The point of a chicane was largely to keep top speeds down for safety reasons. As aero has become more prominent on cars and drafting a bigger deal, the chicane does provide an additional benefit of not making certain straights automatic overtakes. In doing so, they do add an opportunity to overtake under braking.
They’re just like any corner in that way, depending where they show up on the track they add and subvert different dynamics in racecraft.
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May 14 '24
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May 14 '24
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u/Purple_Vacation_4745 May 14 '24
That moment where you pretty sure there's no point asking, but yet: why the f?
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u/brmdrivingschool May 14 '24
Problem with a lot of chicanes is that they tend to be only one line through them e.g. Catalunya so the car in front will always be on the power before the following car which usually strings out cars rather than bring them closer together
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u/yanox00 May 15 '24
That's an interesting thought.
Suppose (just for giggles) that turn 1 at Monza was a mirror image chicane?
You could choose either left or right, equal distance, equal tightness of corner, then merge at the exit before turn 2.?
Probably be a safety issue, but an interesting idea.10
u/gam3guy May 15 '24
The issue would be the racing line would be swinging over the whole track, so you'd have one car on the right of the track turning left and one on the left turning right into eachother potentially
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u/Aquaspire May 15 '24
The other issue is if both lines are equal, it would almost always be whoever gets on the power first, normally the car on the outside of the second part
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u/lslarko May 15 '24
One side will always be faster over that section of lap purely down to one or the other leading for a more optimised entry into the next turn on exit.
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u/Izan_TM May 18 '24
other than having racing line options being really unsafe, there will always be only one that is faster than the other because of how its line feeds into the following corners, so I doubt f1 drivers would ever use the slower of the 2
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u/yanox00 May 18 '24
Whatever difficulty they might be presented, they will definitely find the quicker line.
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u/zeroscout May 15 '24
There's always more than one line. There just one optimum line. Chicanes tend to be designed as a technical series of turns and not just a haphazard set of turns to break up a long stretch. Creating difficulties for the following car is part of a drivers of race craft. Because chicanes tend to have important second turn exits, it's an easy thing to do.
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 May 14 '24
You don't want them leading onto a straight, but they're OK following a straight provided they're nice and wide.
But really, any tight corner impedes overtaking; it's one of the reasons Silverstone has good racing. The corners are wide enough to allow side-by-side racing and multiple lines through corners with similar speeds.
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u/Commercial_Repeat_59 May 14 '24
Yes, Monaco after tunnel - good, even tho there’s a bit of a straight after it, Abu Dhabi t6 and t7 - just bad
Russia had a very very nice long curve leading into a big breaking zone that was just amazing, China and the Paul Richard have one too (where Charles crashed in 2022). I’d rather have one of them rather than a chicane
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u/drankmemes May 15 '24
Wait how is the Monaco chicane good (In terms of wheel to wheel at least)? I feel like the only lines are take the corner properly or cut the chicken.
Edit: nvm, It can be an overtaking spot, see 2018 Verstappen
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
there have been hundreds of overtakes at the braking zone of the monaco chicane after the tunnel. every corner anywhere has overtaking opportunity if you can get inside AND alongside before the apex. now whether you make the apex is another story. dirty drivers will cut diagonally across the racing line through the apex and just push the other driver off the track to make the pass.
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u/gowithflow192 May 15 '24
Depends on the aero that particular year. There have been snooze fests at Silverstone in some years due to dirty air.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
there is only ever one geometrically fastest racing line for a given car type. yes, some tracks are better at side to side racing possibilities. but for a quali run, only one line is fastest.
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 May 15 '24
False. Demonstrably, patently false.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
tell me why then there is the term “racing line” that you are taught on day 1 at karting school?
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 May 15 '24
Same reason they tell you that you can't subtract a bigger number from a smaller number when you first learn subtraction, until you grow up and learn about negative numbers.
See turn 3 at Zandvoort if you still don't understand.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
your equivalence is false. this isn’t addition or subtraction. it’s geometry. there is one shortest path between two points. did the person getting pole at zandvoort get the same time using two different lines? or was one line better at getting the best lap time using the same car? matter of fact, go look at the onboard pole lap from verstappen in 2021,22,23. same high line through turn 3. (2021 the car had different aero characteristics). so by your theory, he should could have done any variation and have the same outcome. nonsense.
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 May 15 '24
So, by your logic, you should never leave the inside curb of the track? Shortest line, bro.
If you recall from the most basic physics class you can possibly take, time (you know, the thing that they actually measure when it comes to racing) = distance/speed. Since you seem like you require additional explanation, let me expand: that means, in many cases, you can navigate a corner in less time by slightly increasing the distance traveled while carrying additional speed. The trade-off between distance and speed is what dictates the possible racing lines, in addition to what is following the corner (i.e. if it's a long straight, you want to carry extra speed because you gain the entire distance of the straight, so you may lose time in the corner but gain time over the lap), the condition of the track and your tires (it may be faster to go off the rubbered-in areas to brake in the wet, or to cool your tires off in changing conditions), and what other cars are around you. That's why we call it a race, and not a lap.
To go back to my perfectly correct analogy, you're not to the point where you can learn about negative numbers. You're not even to the point where I'd let you in the class.
ETA: I hope you learned something, but even if you haven't, I'm done trying to teach. Don't bother responding, I won't look.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
So, you basically just admitted that for any one particular car, there is in fact, only one fastest race line for a circuit. Thanks for playing.
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u/Scatman_Crothers May 15 '24
Go watch Chinese GP onboards and tell me guys were taking the same lines through every corner. T1-T4 complex and T7 all the way through T11 guys were taking distinctly different lines to achieve similar times.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
race lines while defending and attacking is different than the optimum line during a qualifying run where only the best lap matters. even with different aero regulations, looking at chinese pole lap onboards 2017, the same line is taken in turn 1-4 complex.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
“similar” isn’t “the best” time.
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u/Scatman_Crothers May 15 '24
Best time might be best time consistent with that driver’s driving style, his car’s inherent characteristics, the car setup, and track conditions relative to all those factors. This isn’t a spec series with a bunch of AI drivers who are all driving under exactly the same parameters with the same programming, different drivers will approach corners differently because it’s how they can get the fastest time they are able to extract as an individual, and there is categorical evidence those lines are not always the same. In China for instance T1-2 was dogging Charles all weekend, he was losing time there every lap. Why doesn’t he just copy other drivers lines, is he stupid? No, there’s a lot more going on than that. But when the drivers are putting up times within hundredths or thousandths of a second over an entire lap, not just one corner complex, it’s pretty strong evidence there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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u/stuntin102 May 15 '24
yeah. minute setup differences, confidence, etc all come into play, but like i said, for any one particular car, there is only one theoretically fastest racing line.
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u/Scatman_Crothers May 15 '24
Theoretically, sure, in an F1 team’s multi million dollar simulator where every variable is controlled and the driver is an optimization algorithm. But these are humans, not robots. They’re going to have their own setup preferences, their own driving styles. One may attack S1 harder to gain time while the other is more conservative to save tires for the rest of the lap. Or one may want more downforce to pick up time in corners while the other goes low df and makes up the same amount of time back on straights. And let’s say in a scenario through all that when comparing teammates their times are within thousands of one another, where the delta could come down not to the lines they chose it could just be one executed one particular corner better or had a better outlap or didn’t catch the same gust of wind has his teammate - in the real word it’s such a fine margin we’ll never know which was theoretically better. The reality is different drivers drive different lines to extract the most they can as actual humans.
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u/eedoamitay May 14 '24
Paul Ricard's chicane is pretty good for overtakes after it, there were a few good moves in the past few years at the exit of that chicane down to the fast right hander
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u/PrescriptionCocaine May 14 '24
Before a straight is generally worse for overtaking, because the extremely low exit speed increases the physical gap between cars and therefore decreases slipstream for most of the straight. I.e. Miami.
After a straight is generally better for overtaking, because the long hard braking zone creates an overtaking opportunity. I.e. Monza.
I'm usually anti-chicane but if placed correctly they can be fun.
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u/zeroscout May 15 '24
You are trying to reduce the complexities of racing. Chicanes by definition, should always be down a long section. They are turn complexes that break up a long section of track. I can't think of a track where a the chicane breaks up the long section up front. They are sually in the middle or near the end of a long section.
Okay, because the second turn tends to be more important, you're better off taking the first turn correctly to set yourself up for the exit of the second turn. Regardless of how long of a straight you have after the second turn.
The more likely passing opportunity would be into the first turn. Especially if you can late apex it from the inside without compromising the second turn. However, if you have set up your opponent to expect a pass in the first turn, you can get them to brake late and compromise their entry into the second turn. If you cannot get the pass made and keep the better line through the second turn, then you're gonna lose the position post exit.
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u/VampyrByte May 15 '24
I can't think of a track where a the chicane breaks up the long section up front. They are sually in the middle or near the end of a long section.
Variante Alta at Imola is in the first half of a "straight", as was Variante Bassa before it was removed. (It was before the start/finish)
Old Turns 9 and 10 at Albert Park were a chicane definitely at the beginning of the long straight.
Catalunya effectively had a chicane leading onto the long straight, although there was the right hander final turn too.
The final turns at Magny-Cours were a chicane leading into a very long flat out section.
Old Hockenheim, the straights were so long the chicanes were at the beginning of one straight at the end of another.
I'm sure there are more, It doesnt seem that uncommon. There are also nuances with the design of a chincane that impact how it flows.
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u/zeroscout May 15 '24
Variante Alta breaks up a long section of track.
The old 9 and 10 Clark chicane broke up a long section.
The old last chicane section at Catalunya somewhat meets the conditions.
Final turns at Magny-Cours also meets the condition.
Sarthe/Le Mans is also like Hockenheim with chicanes breaking up a very long straight.
Considering how many tracks there are, I would still say it is not common to have chicanes early on.
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u/floodlenoodle May 14 '24
I do love high speed heavy braking zones but some chicanes are just bad for racing because they're too tight
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u/Scatman_Crothers May 15 '24
The more likely passing opportunity would be into the first turn
This is far from always true. It depends on the profiling of the chicane and whether you can fully finish the overtake before the second part of the chicane or you’re going to be battling through both corners. Take Imola T1-2 for instance, overtaking you want to be on the outside into T1, the unfavorable position for that turn taken in isolation so that as you go through T2 you’re on the inside and can push wide and compromise the exit of your opponent to finish the overtake.
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u/No-Advantage-6410 May 17 '24
I think there is some great action in the chicanes. As a driver trying to make a pass you need to commit early and have faith that both you and your opponent will be able to make the turn.
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u/Homicidal_Pingu May 14 '24
They put a bunch of them in after senna to improve safety. It’s also a good way to slow a track down without spending a boatload of money
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u/Commercial_Repeat_59 May 14 '24
Didn’t they remove the last chicane in Spain?
But I agree, I’d bypass t1 and t2 in Monza to have a China-style t1. Pretty big breaking zone for divebombs but a lot more space to overtake mid turn - ahem 2021 ahem -
But I get the one in Monaco after the tunnel for example, works very well imo, just not some mid-straight bullshit, either give me a Miami or even SPA straight or don’t bother at all, make it like Austin t3-t10
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u/GlumTown6 May 15 '24
Didn’t they remove the last chicane in Spain?
OP literally mentioned that chicane getting taken out
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u/Ottonline May 15 '24
I think le curve grande would still be flat even if you removed the chicane
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u/Aquaspire May 15 '24
Very much so. A gt3 is a slight lift without the first chicane, and that's a got no downforce compared to f1
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May 15 '24
Chicanes used to be give good and optimal overtake chances, u chase the car in front with slipstream brake late or dive the inside and get good traction however with the longer and wider cars (increased a lot last 15 years) it is difficult the have a chance to find a door cuz cars really wider.
They first invent drs for more overtake and now theyre intending to improve it with a overtake boost button. For me drs is killing the fun i get used to be. Push a button and overtake, used to be overtaking is a masterclass but i dont feel it same way for last 10 years.
I know the increased length came from safety measures but there were aero too, cars need to be smaller and nimble they are like an s class used to be they were a polo.
And a more thing too, there are so many street circuits in calendar, esp new ones. This is one of the reason too
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u/therealdilbert May 15 '24
wider cars (increased a lot last 15 years)
currently: 2000mm 2000-2015: 1800mm before that back to the ~1970's: 2200mm
afaict the extra lenght is almost all for aero, big empty space behind the engine, and the huge from wing
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