r/F1Technical • u/Mouse_Nightshirt • Mar 24 '24
Safety If a car had struck Russell on the underside of the car, would the survival cell survive?
Russell's accident ended up presenting the underside of the car to oncoming cars - my impression is that the survival cell's underside is the most vulnerable - if a car had struck that at speed, would it remain intact?
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u/SirLoremIpsum Mar 24 '24
if a car had struck that at speed, would it remain intact?
I don't know if there's anyone that could give a real answer to that - i think everyone here is just guessing.
The FIA tests are front impact, roll tests and side impact tests. I cannot find that there's is an underside test. in the absence of an actual Crash Test, or specific knowledge of the survival cell.... we're just guessing really no?
There is audio from George and he is terrified, calling out red flag red flag red flag red flag I'm in the middle of the road. Could have been a big crash.
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24 edited Mar 24 '24
If you also listen to Stroll's (the next car, about 10 seconds behind the accident) radio, his race engineer is in a low-level panic trying to warn him about Russell. "Yellow ahead, yellow ahead, yellow hard, DANGER". It's impressive how hyper-focussed and switched on they were when the race was pretty much winding down. To see the yellow flag, check the incident, identify the danger, identify that your driver is about to arrive at the scene, and get on the radio took a matter of seconds. I also hope (and expect that it's true) that a race engineer saying "danger" on the radio is one of those trigger words that automatically brings out the highest possible degree of caution from a driver, even before red flags have come out.
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u/Wyattr55123 Mar 24 '24
The race engineers have a live feed of the race they can look at. he probably saw the yellow come up, saw the feed, and then processed the feed and what it meant, and had an OH FUCK moment.
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24
Indeed. I was also thinking that because Russell was between the two Astons and was actively fighting Alonso, they were probably actively watching it and didn't have to divert attention from elsewhere. Still think he did a great job though.
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u/Username_Query_Null Mar 24 '24
It’s kinda crazy dangerous that they just VSC’d and didn’t red flag. VSC means maintain a set speed. Red flag means go as slow as possible to the pits, major accident.
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24
Yeah, I couldn't get it either. Particularly when there was only a lap to go anyway. It was obvious that the race wasn't going to get underway again, so it should have been a quick Red Flag + "race will not restart".
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u/alienangel2 Mar 24 '24
They would still have had to drive past George to the pits for a red flag, would they actually have done that any slower or safer than under VSC? Drivers knew it was the end of the race regardless, no one was going above minimum speed even for VSC.
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u/UnconfirmedRooster Mar 24 '24
A VSC is a fairly common occurrence and the drivers don't think much of them. A red flag is a big thing to bring up and means something bad happened, watch out. While the speed might not change, the mention of a red flag would instantly cause the drivers to become very aware of what was happening.
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u/GrowthDream Mar 25 '24
something bad happened, watch out.
This is also what a VSC means and I'm sure they've all lost enough friends and heroes to understand that.
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u/sleeepyhead13b Mar 26 '24
When I'm at a track day and see a yellow, I think "an idiot ran out of talent." When I see a red, I think " hope everyones ok."
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u/GrowthDream Mar 26 '24
A track day and the pinnacle of motorsport are quite different things.
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u/sleeepyhead13b Mar 26 '24
The flags communicate the same thing. The radio chatter also tells me the drivers are still just people too. Stroll's engineer is truely a hero.
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u/Iblogan Mar 25 '24
iirc when the red flag comes out, all drivers have to immediately enter the pit lane if they haven't already passed the entrance (we just rarely see this because most of the time the red comes out when everyone is behind SC). And when Russel crashed, because it was relatively early in the lap, there weren't that many cars between him and the pit entrance. If the stewards were quick about it they could've limited the number of cars that had to go past the site at the very least even if they wouldn't have gone any slower
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u/Iemaj Mar 24 '24
It wasnt just VSC, it was a double yellow as well.
This means drivers need to reduce their speed significantly, cannot overtake and must be prepared to change direction or stop, due to a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track and/or marshals working on or beside the track.
This was appropriate given they were 1 lap away anyway so be it a red flag or double yellow, all cars were going to have to complete the lap in order to make it all the way around to the pits. The double yellow also avoids other proceduralities that have to follow a red flag, the only one I know of are % points related in relation to track distance, but there are other technicalities here that could have been annoying to employ with a red compared to double yellows.
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u/NyoomNyoomNyoomNyoom Mar 25 '24
Procedurally, there's no difference. Either the cars slow to caution pace and come into the pits, finishing the lap and the race, or they slow to caution pace and cross the line to finish the race. The drivers have radios, they all knew to expect something around a corner.
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u/GrowthDream Mar 25 '24
The drivers have radios, they all knew to expect something around a corner.
At the same time near misses due to radio miscommunications aren't uncommon.
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u/Iemaj Mar 28 '24
Absolutely, that being said, both radios and a second methodology of drivers observing flags hopefully mitigates any failure of a or b (although we've seen both fail before 😬)
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u/mookow35 Mar 24 '24
I know the cars are obviously fast, but looking at Stroll's onboard, it's amazing how quickly he comes upon Russell even when he is going "slowly". Everything these cars do is ridiculously fast
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u/stillusesAOL Mar 25 '24
Wow! Absolute MVP. I timed the accident and the VSC graphic, and by my basic calculation, although the “yellow flag” was instant, the VSC did not arrive for 13 seconds — 1 second after Stroll was in Russel’s immediate vicinity.
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u/The_Talkie_Toaster Mar 24 '24
Where did you find Stroll’s audio? They’ve put Russell’s everywhere but I haven’t heard radio from any other drivers about it.
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24
F1TV subscription, you can listen to all of the driver radios.
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u/The_Talkie_Toaster Mar 24 '24
Ah do you reckon it’s worth paying for then? I didn’t think it was worth it because you don’t actually get to watch the race live
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24
I guess it depends on where you're living. I use a VPN and pay for the American service, so I get the races live, can watch replays immediately, and there's a race archive going back to the 70s (not all races are on it though, generally gets sparser the further you go back). There's also an archive of some other shows they've done, some of which are quite good. For the coverage you can choose F1TV commentary or "international" (ie. Sky) commentary, but you don't get the latter until 5 minutes before the race starts, so you won't see stuff like Brundle doing his gridwalks.
I think it's well worth it, certainly compared to paying for a Sky F1 subscription. You can always just pay for a month to check it out, see if it suits your needs or not :)
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u/iapplexmax Mar 24 '24
F1 access is also great if you want access to the archive and don’t mind waiting 2 weeks for the “recent” replays
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u/HuckleberryDry4889 Mar 24 '24
Is this the same engineer that asked Stroll if he could get back to the garage in Jeddah?
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u/ProfessionalHuman22 Mar 26 '24
I am 12, so do take this analysis with a grain of salt.
The survival cell is made of single-layered 6mm worth of CFRP and a Kevlar composite on the outside. Since it is of course, the most central component of the entirety of the vehicle, being the MONOCOQUE itself, it must withstand the stress of multiple stressed members i.e. engine, diff, gearbox and so on. They do have a standardized crash test before it is attached.
However, considering direct impact underneath is a relatively rare occurrence, most notably Rubens Barrichello's crash at the Variante Bassa chicane at the Aqua Minerale section of Imola, we saw the car instantly destroyed, and also considering the crash of Romain Grosjean into the barrier very recently causing the car to split, this monocoque, despite being incredibly strong, is still one of the weakest points of of the vehicle.
So to answer it all: maybe a crash at 248-280 kmh, depending on how the corner was taken, the W15s monocoque would have been severely damaged, maybe nearly splitting the floor or breaking George Rusell's legs. It is just the speed of awareness and focus of the drivers that saved him.
Do correct me if I am wrong!
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u/Hald1r Mar 24 '24
I hope we never find out either way as that would most likely be serious injuries even with the cell surviving.
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u/brandy0438 Mar 24 '24
I hope we find out, but only through FIA crash testing.
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u/pterofactyl Mar 24 '24
I hope we find out but the driver has been deceased prior to the collision underneath, and they’ve signed their body away to science
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u/Username_Query_Null Mar 24 '24
It would help if they red flagged rather than VSC’d like Russell was screaming for. VSC you slow but don’t nessesarily stop, as a matter of fact a VSC requires the drivers to maintain a minimum speed, it was dangerous to not red flag.
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u/beneoin Mar 24 '24
It was VSC + double yellow in that sector, meaning the driver must be travelling slow enough to stop within visual line of sight.
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u/rabbidplatypus21 Adrian Newey Mar 24 '24
When a red is thrown the cars don’t just stop immediately. They still have to circle to the pit lane at the exact same delta speed that a VSC requires.
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u/ProfessionalHuman22 Mar 26 '24
Likely very damaged legs, a ruined tibia and fibula as well as a broken pelvis. He might have been paralysed.
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u/rotarypower101 Mar 24 '24
That’s a interesting question I hope someone can answer with detail.
The floor seems to take some rather large hits from objects it goes over at speed, but that is not a whole vehical of mass and momentum concentrated at a “single point”.
Probably depends on which part of the floor specifically also.
When Sainz went over that drain cover, it caused a lot of damage, but did it penetrate into the cell?
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u/BarryMccokinyuh Mar 24 '24
I remember reading that it caused a hole in Sainzs car, now if an F1 car would've hit Russell at 200-250kmph, I don't think the underbody would've survived. Let's hope we never find out
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u/ProfessionalHuman22 Mar 26 '24
No. It caused massive underfloor damage, a little towards the side. If it had penetrated into the cell, Carlos might not have needed appendix surgery. 😶
The scraping of the drain cover occurred because the low pressure region below the car sucked the open drain up. This caused it to buffet and slide into the underside, but not catastrophic component failure.-
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u/theSnoozeDoctor Mar 24 '24
I think most likely, the front of an F1 car plus the halo would have scooped up the car. That is a slower slightly slower speed corner as well.
We have also seen drain covers hit the bottom at full speed and damage but not penetrate the survival cell.
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u/rickkert812 Mar 24 '24
Didn’t the drain cover in Vegas punch a hole in Sainz’ floor?
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u/VLM52 Andrew Green Mar 24 '24
Floor, sure; but the floor is way thinner than the cockpit cell.
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u/rickkert812 Mar 24 '24
No no, I meant there was a visible hole in his cockpit floor? I dunno, might be imagining it…
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u/bobbybiropette Mar 24 '24
pics or it didn't happen
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u/cafk Renowned Engineers Mar 24 '24
We didn't get pictures, but the team & sainz were quoted that the drain cover came all the way through and even damaged his seat, besides being able to see the road below:
https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/17xphf4/jenna_fryer_carlos_sainz_jr_said_the_drainage/
https://twitter.com/ESPNF1/status/1725407737788436516Which is why they had to replace the survival cell, RNC components & the PU and were unhappy about the associated penalties.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Las%20Vegas%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Decision%20-%20Car%2055%20-%20Replacement%20Components.pdf8
u/StructureTime242 Mar 24 '24
I don’t think the nose cone is solid enough to flip up the chassis in case of a crash, it would likely crumple as it’s designed to and then the front bulkhead of the other car’s chassis goes straight into George’s car
Anyways as others have said, I wish we never have to find out if F1 cars are prepared for underside impacts
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u/Evening_Rock5850 Mar 24 '24
I don’t know. But I do know that recent severe injuries and fatalities involving Formula cars have mostly involved an impact between two cars with a very high speed differential between them and one of the cars not being oriented in the way it would normally be expected to be at that part of the track.
One of the reasons modern F1 car collisions between drivers tend to result in so few injuries is that the cars have been developed for this sort of a crash. And the expectation is two fairly similar speed cars crashing while going the same direction. That isn’t to say they absolutely cannot survive anything else; it’s just that this is the most common type of crash and it makes sense to develop for that.
So tl;dr, I’m not sure we know what would happen. But other genuinely bad, bad accidents in the past have looked exactly like what you describe.
(As an add; this is EXACTLY what the VSC is for. Quickly neutralizing the race and slowing all of the cars down happens so much faster than a traditional safety car, and reduces the risk of someone coming up at that point in the track at high speed.)
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u/jacksastorageottoman Mar 25 '24
Russell would have probably died. It would have been very similar to Antoine’s death in the 2019 F2 season where he was stopped on the track and T-boned by another driver. The cars are designed to remain intact during a collision, but there’s very little they can do to prevent the internal trauma from the force of a 200 kph speed differential.
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u/2020bowman Mar 24 '24
Suspect his car would have gone over a car that hit him
Considering George was ok, visibility was clear, vsc wasn't worst idea
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u/Izan_TM Mar 24 '24
the survival cell would probably survive, russell would probably not tho
there isn't a crash structure under the survival cell, so the accelerations would be insane
because of how modern f1 cars are shaped there is a good chance that the impact isn't head on and russells car would've just been pushed up by the slope of the car, leading to a lot less acceleration
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u/halfmanhalfespresso McLaren Mar 24 '24
I came here to basically say this. Under George’s arse is something like half an inch of carbon then the 10mm wooden plank which is quite strong but offers no energy absorption whatsoever. So George is sitting there I guess unable to see what’s coming, and expecting an F1 car up the literal backside. On this occasion I can fully forgive his somewhat panicked radio call.
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u/Montjo17 Mar 24 '24
The car might've, George Russel would not have. Just think about all the back injuries that have come from the minor impacts generated with the car bottoming out. A high speed collision with another car would've been catastrophic for the driver as all the force would go straight through them
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u/hvidmann Mar 24 '24
Considering this, it's frightening that they didn't red flag the race immediately. You could hear the terror in Russels voice when he screamed for the red flag
Edit: added the link
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u/Gr1mmage Mar 24 '24
Red flag or VSC made no difference to the on track safety though on the final lap, everyone is still being forced to slow right down and is aware there may be track obstructions either way. The only real difference would have been a red flag would have ended the race a lap earlier, with no real reason for a restart, and saved George from losing his points.
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u/hvidmann Mar 24 '24
Stopping a lap earlier would also have stopped someone from getting hit by Ericson (like Grossjean in Baku) and spinning into Russel. I know it's a long shot, but there surely must be higher risk in VSC than a red flag
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u/Gr1mmage Mar 24 '24
Thing is, it wouldn't have been stopped a lap earlier, they all still had to complete the final lap in either scenario. If it was any other lap of the race then yes, it would have made a difference to red flag it. However, as it was the final lap both scenarios result in the cars completing the lap they're on, just that red flagging it would also preserve the position of the driver that crashed
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u/gowithflow192 Mar 24 '24
Agree. Car sideways blocking the track almost. Should have been an instant red flag. Race director screwed up.
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u/Slinky_Malingki Mar 24 '24
Red flag or VSC literally makes no difference here. VSC means they go slow. Red flag means the same exact thing because it's the final lap. They just go slow. Because cars don't just stop when the red flag comes out. They go slow on an inlap to the pits.
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u/gowithflow192 Mar 24 '24
A VSC is a common event. A red flag is grave, everyone know that and drivers will slow down even more than the delta is willing them to do at minimum. There's a huge difference. With a red flag, drivers exercise way more caution than a VSC.
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u/Slinky_Malingki Mar 24 '24
Both the VSC and red flag have the same delta.
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u/gowithflow192 Mar 24 '24
You didn't even read what I wrote for crying out loud. I didn't dispute that.
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u/ency6171 Mar 24 '24
Some mentioned if red flag without a restart, the final classification will assume positions of the previous lap?
If that's true, then that would essentially mean Rus get points, which would not be correct, as he obviously crashed out.
It being the final lap and the leader has passed the threshold(sector 1 or something, this I forgot), the red flag option is out then.
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u/ExJak Mar 25 '24
Having been involved in the manufacturing of F1 chassis's for 6 years, I would say that it is likely the survival cell would have been okay. It wouldn't have been pleasant for the driver involved and would likely have resulted in injury, especially with him being a stationary object. A very scary thought is, considering that the ERS battery is located as low down as possible in the chassis and capped for access with a 10mm carbon cover whilst being housed in it's own carbon surround, this would have likely been in the impact zone and we all know batteries do not like taking impacts. The floor would have offered zero protection and the chassis homologation tests focuses on the Roll Hoop, side impact, leg box squeeze and frontal load areas.
Luckily whilst still a panic, track safety was good enough to intervene and prevent us having to know the answers to this question.
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u/404merrinessnotfound Jan Monchaux Mar 24 '24
The car was tilted so the nose of an oncoming car would've in all likelihood, hit the underside of the left sidepod first instead of the monocoque part where Russell is sitting
Obviously still a scary place to be sitting
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u/Iliyan61 Mar 24 '24
we can’t answer for sure as there’s no data on this but at the very least if stroll had smacked into that russell would’ve gone flying and he would’ve rolled which is super risky. we saw in zhous crash that the survival cell would hold up to that quite well
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u/hydroracer8B Mar 24 '24
I'm sure we'll get to see Sam Collins and Scarbs talk about it in next week's tech talk.
I'd expect the bottom of the car to be reasonably strong - they stood up to porpoising with no issues, but that's not the same as getting hit by another car...
It would be surprising to me if this weren't considered in the design of the survival cell, but I've got not actual knowledge of the floor's structural design
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u/Columbia1878 Mar 24 '24
I think it was fortunate that we didn't have a major event today. Had that been on lap 1 or 2 with cars swarming around each other...well, I don't want to speculate.
Given that drivers' backs were hurting during the porpoising era, and a driver can hurt their back if they go over a kerb too hard, I doubt the bottom of the car is going to absorb much energy from a collision at that angle. I hope it's something they look at, because it could have ended really badly.
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u/StuBeck Mar 24 '24
We don’t know yet. Most of these accidents aren’t something people can predict what would actually happen scientifically either. Remember that halo took over a decade to develop, and it’s essentially just two bars welded together. There is a lot more analysis that needs to happen before someone can say definitively yes or no what would have happened. Instead we get armchair experts saying things out of turn and everyone believing them.
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u/sinterkaastosti23 Mar 24 '24
i wouldnt be surprised if the survival cell would survive, but theres no crumble zone on the bottom of the car as far as i am aware so prob a big no no
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u/ZookeepergameWeak254 Mar 24 '24
Crazy they didn’t red flag it. Bro was right in the middle of the track, on his side, screaming on the radio for a red flag. If I’m George Russell I’m kicking down the race director’s door and grabbing him by the neck and flipping him on his side.
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u/Additional_Hand_2288 Mar 24 '24
what would red flagging have achieved that the vsc didnt, if it was red flagged then the cars would still have to drive past him under a delta
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u/Flameon985 Mar 24 '24
Yes, but they wouldn't be pushing to the delta.
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u/Additional_Hand_2288 Mar 25 '24
surely they wouldn’t be pushing to a delta in a double yellow flag zone?
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u/Flameon985 Mar 25 '24
Under a VSC you must be positive once in each mini sector, i.e. +0.01s to delta to minimise time lost. Under a red, or full SC time gaps don't matter as resumption would be a standing or rolling start.
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u/Nonturbulent-Soul Mar 26 '24
This was a red flag moment. FIA’s incompetence could’ve cost George his life. Not a single fan gives a flying flip about a rolling finish… if it’s going to cost a driver his life.
Stewards, get a clue and get it together!
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