r/F1Technical • u/Diligent_Driver_5049 • Sep 15 '23
Circuit Can anyone explain why RedBull is facing trouble in Singapore
Redbull did pretty good in slow speed corners of monaco. Is it something to do with stress circuits. Can anyone throw some insights into this 🤝🤝
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Sep 15 '23
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u/Vivid-Tip3110 Sep 15 '23
I feel like you guys are being overly pessimistic (or optimistic if youre a RB Fan). The race is definitely going to be very interesting. Even if RB has the best long runs the margins are much smaller and they might not have the delta to overtake
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u/CX52J Sep 15 '23
This is Reddit. Everything is just sandbagging until we have like 5 race results to confirm anything.
People on Reddit thought Merc was sandbagging for far too long in 2022.
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u/laidback_chef Sep 15 '23
i think it went from sandbagging to hopium to its mercedes they will bring it back. I dont think anyone truly believed there was sandbagging after 5 races.
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u/gigshitter Sep 15 '23
!remindme 2 days
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u/Dubslack Sep 16 '23
Red Bull has the most laps led so far this season with 799. Then Ferrari with 26. Mercedes, 13.
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u/F1Technical-ModTeam Sep 16 '23
Your comment was removed as it broke Rule 2: No Joke comments in the top 2 levels under a post.
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u/brazencore33 Sep 15 '23 edited Sep 16 '23
Also the data, which is admittedly not always super accurate, has them still having the best race pace. It also has them only a tenth off Ferrari in quali.
They'll be ok?
Edit: added the question mark for good measure after quali 😅
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 16 '23
This aged badly
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u/Cynergyy Sep 16 '23
I was lied to!
Apparently all the talks about rear instability were true. Both cars were complaining on most corners, they looked quite unstable. Max was also complaining about the upshift in FP3.
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 16 '23
Does this have anything to do with new rule change about flexible wings
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u/Nothatisnotwhere Sep 16 '23
I think Sam was mentioning them clamping down on the rear beam wing, maybe they had some funkyness going on there
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Sep 18 '23
This was mentioned a lot on the weekend. I personally put it down to the rule changes. Thought everyone assumed this?
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 18 '23
I think it might be a coincidence. They had the same weekend in brazil 2022 and to some extent singapore 2022. In brazil they had no pace from the start and were slower than mercedes out of nowhere and they were back the next race. In singapore they had pace in quali but then in the race everyone expected max to win and that was never even close to happening. Not to mention other dominant years of other teams when they had a one off. We will only know after suzuka if it really is the rule change. I think their lack of pace was exaggerated a lot because of unlucky sc and the image of max losing like 6 places in 2 laps which had nothing to do with the car being bad.
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u/brazencore33 Sep 16 '23
I'll wait for the race before I backtrack too much 😅
So great for Ferrari and Sainz (and Lawson), bring on the race!
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 16 '23
All max can realistically hope for is maybe p5 if they somehow fix the car.
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u/brazencore33 Sep 16 '23
They'll definitely need a lot to go their way, but it is Singapore and Massa will tell you how much can go wrong here
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 16 '23
Yeah i hope for crazy multiple red flags race
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u/brazencore33 Sep 16 '23
So long as they are safe, what a massive shunt for Stroll, not quite Baku vibes but pretty hectic!
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 16 '23
Eh maybe im just ignorant but i feel like nowdays f1 cars are so safe that for driver to get injured he needs to hit the wall head on
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u/brazencore33 Sep 16 '23
I reckon you are right here, lots to be said about the last 10 years of safety improvements
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u/Cool-Ad-2565 Sep 17 '23
If they ‘fix’ the car they will need to start from the pitlane won’t they ? Parc ferme rules etc etc it’s just circuit specific MB had it during their domination I remember
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u/FrontBench5406 Sep 17 '23
damn dude.... hahahaha bravo
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u/Designer-Echidna5845 Red Bull Sep 17 '23
Would be p6 without osama bin russel. They should just box in first sc
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u/RX0Invincible Sep 16 '23
Wasn't that a bit skewed towards fresher laps since Perez' average was computed with less overall laps than the others meaning there were less worn laps than the others?
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u/brazencore33 Sep 16 '23
Yeah it's definitely not the be all and end all of data. Lots is being spoken about RB having a terrible weekend, which by their current standards they absolutely are having, particularly the media loving the drama. I just reckon they will still be very tough to beat. So keen to find out tomorrow/see how fp3 and quali goes
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u/rickkert812 Sep 15 '23
They just came up with the wrong setup in their preparation for the weekend I think. It happened a few times over the past few seasons. Can’t do it right 100% of the time I guess.
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u/Other_Beat8859 Sep 15 '23
Yeah it actually happened quite a lot last season. They were shit on Friday and then got their shit together overnight. If they still struggle after FP3 then it's interesting.
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u/karankshah Sep 16 '23 edited Sep 17 '23
taps the sign Stop using free practice as any kind of indication of what is going to happen. All of the teams use practice to try out different parts and setups. Until the car enters parc ferme, assume you have no idea about performance - race pace or otherwise.
Edit:
This got way more attention than I thought it would, but I stand by what I said. If you were watching the FPs you would have either thought that RB is completely in the mud with the lack of pace since the last TD, or you thought that they had single lap pace competitive with third or fourth on the grid.
Red Bull fell off to mid-pack on single lap pace, but clearly managed to maintain consistency and race pace to be further up the order, even with a sub-optimal strategy.
Mercedes who people claimed would be very fast in race trim - faster than Ferrari, remember - ultimately needed a significant tire and strategy offset, and even with DRS did not have the top speed to really get after them.
There's a hundred things on the car that change between Qualifying and race start, and there's thousands that change between FP3 and the start of quali. This would not be the first time that a team sandbagged in performance in practice, nor would it be the first time that a track temp change or other shift completely nullifies set up decisions going into the race. The teams are also driving to completely different targets - fastest times in practice sessions were around 1:32. This dropped to 1:30-ish for quali, but went way up to 1:35 for fastest laps in race trim.
I would suggest not putting too much stock in practice sessions - enjoy the cars going round, think of it as a rough shakedown where teams sometimes uncover issues in their cars, but don't assume that the time differences or rankings will hold going into qualifying or the race.
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u/Verdin88 Sep 16 '23
Normally though at least max is at the top even in free practice.
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u/Infninfn Sep 16 '23
And despite not being top in FP he wins the races regardless. Your point?
top>too
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u/Verdin88 Sep 16 '23 edited Sep 16 '23
My point is that redbull is slow at this track and not at thier normal pace of being at the top. I believe the streak is going to end. FP3 is more indicative of the true pace and they are still struggling
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u/Cappachino78 Sep 16 '23
Verstappen is out of quali in Q2
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Sep 15 '23
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u/AChunkyMother Sep 16 '23
And even after Q3 if Max starts 15th he’ll catch the front of the pack in 9 laps lmao
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u/Andrew_Squared Sep 16 '23
Redbull this year has run with less optimum qualification specs for more optimal race pace specs. Not to such an extreme that it's impossible to overtake, but more like a nod toward the true strength of their car: the race pace. For whatever reason here, it is just impacting them slightly more. And I do mean slightly, remember, Carlos took pole last week as well. Qualis aren't a guaranteed pole position for RB. Listening to Max talk he knew as well that he was going to overtake the lead eventually at Monza, as he could see Sainz's tyres were headed out the window.
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u/cherryghost2 Sep 16 '23
I firmly believe it may be the less flexible floor. I was under the impression over the course of the season that at slower speeds the RB floor could still keep a vacuum under it, keeping downforce where other cars dont. I never seen the other cars bottoming out as much as the RB does around slower/mid speed corners. I believe the vacuum was able to stay when the floor creates a 'hump' effect from side-to-side of the car.
Now that the flexi-floor is no longer available to the RB car, it looks decidedly average and the exposures of less aero tunnel time is surely showing now.
Japan we'll have a clearer picture, if RB really need to refocus their efforts for their 2024 car.
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u/yungcotter Sep 16 '23
Horner saying the cars are the same as the last 2 races isn’t passing the sniff test. Seems too much of a coincidence to not be at least somewhat related. Even in Brazil 22 which is the last race they were off the pace the car didn’t behave like this.
In the words of a young Max "Yes, that's what happens when you stop cheating,"
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Sep 17 '23
Yeah, I think these two situations are kinda similar. “Bending” the regulation rules, and the FIA giving them the chance to fix it without punishment. And then their performance drops off.
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u/uristmcderp Sep 16 '23
Max had to literally bounce between the walls to get pole in Monaco. He's going to have to pull off something special to do well in Singapore.
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u/meloenmarco Sep 15 '23
They seem to have rear instability issues
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u/bluebird_14 Sep 16 '23
I wonder what connection this has with the TD and the fact that the RB has been able to dump a lot of drag and therefore downforce when their DRS is open.
I don’t buy sandbagging in practice because it does more harm to yourself. It’s like missing penalties or free throws before a game to throw off the other team. Just no point.
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u/ImpressionOne8275 Sep 16 '23
TD and the fact that the RB has been able to dump a lot of drag and therefore downforce when their DRS is open.
There's a lot being said about the new TD but I don't think this is it. The cars aren't going nowehere near fast enough in this circuit for it to have this much of an impact, it's set up related for sure. That mixed in with the fact ferrari have put in a new engine in Monza I mean it's a compounding reflection really.
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u/bluebird_14 Sep 16 '23
How fast is fast enough?
Aero works at any speed.
Also Singapore may be a slow track by F1 standards but by F1 standards they are still going a lot faster than anything else can, mainly due to the aero.
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u/ImpressionOne8275 Sep 17 '23
Oh for sure aero works at any speed but it's less effective and the TD wouldn't effect the car at these speeds is what I'm saying. They basically have the same car as they did in Monza, very little has changed. They're losing time in the slower corners and under breaking, which isn't a direct reflection of the TD, just poor set up. The RB is very rigid, which is great for tracks say with a smooth surface as it can make the air flow more predictable over all easier to handle. Compare this to here where the surface is bumpy, slower it's much more about mechanical grip - suspension, tyre windows, bias etc.
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u/WhoAreWeEven Sep 16 '23
I would assume the flexing wings work the way they can use more wing and still have enough straight line speed.
If the effect is lessened, they might have to choose more between less wing and suffer at lower speeds or more wings and suffer at high speeds.
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u/ImpressionOne8275 Sep 17 '23
I mean I feel like it's less aero dependant and more of a mechanical grip challenge for them. You can have as much aero as you want, but if the car isn't able to transfer that downforce into cornering, breaking, traction etc it's pretty useless.
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u/WhoAreWeEven Sep 17 '23
I would also assume their woes this weekend isnt about flexi wings. Theres million things it might be though.
That was just as a general speculation how it could possibly be that here. As the wings are always dialed specific to track with enough downforce and enough straight line speed, and how they work at different speeds.
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u/ImpressionOne8275 Sep 18 '23
I've just read something that seems to make sense. The RB is able to run its car very low to the ground much more so than the rest of the field. The problem with this on bumpy / compression circuits is that because it runs so low to the ground, it can wear out the skid plate to an illegal level. This happened in Spa in the Eau Rougue / Radillion, and both Perez and Max had to lift off. It was fine for the rest of the circuit, but just in that one part of the circuit. With Singapore, the track surface is uneven and super bumpy, which means that they had to run their ride height much higher than expected. Which in turn meant that the floor was much less effective. The other teams have built their floor to cope better with not being able to run as close to the ground (because they're actually unable to) whilst redbulls floor isn't as efficient when at a higher ride height. This in turn means not being able to generate the downforce they needed, along with not being able to push the car to get the tyres in the right window.
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u/WhoAreWeEven Sep 18 '23
That makes sense. They were one of the teams who didnt have that much of porpoising issue if I recall right.
Is it even possible how they changed the rules around the skidplate affects all that.
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u/ImpressionOne8275 Sep 18 '23
It's possible to run the car lower, even with the skid plate rules introduced last year but it's not as easy as it then becomes a part that you have to manage during the race, rather than having the moveable skid block which effected ferrari more last year. There's an article on it here - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/disappearing-skid-blocks-a-part-of-f1s-flexi-floor-tricks/10336010/
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u/listyraesder Sep 15 '23
FP1 is useless as it’s the least representative practice in the calendar. So everyone’s working on reduced data. FP2 is essentially FP1.
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u/K1mbler Sep 16 '23
Has anyone got any rideheight comparison pictures? The front of the car seemed quite high today on the onboards…
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Sep 15 '23
Still interesting how Singapore seems to be difficult for RBR consistently. Verstappen's yet to win here.
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Sep 15 '23
They literally won last year
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Sep 15 '23
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u/F1Technical-ModTeam Sep 16 '23
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u/ComparisonPlus5196 Sep 15 '23
To be fair, Max would have won there last year if the pit wall didn’t pull a Ferrari in Q3.
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Sep 15 '23
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u/runn5r Sep 16 '23
The circuit demands mechanical grip in slow corners over high downforce. The Redbull has the best aero package, that is less relevant here.
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u/Diligent_Driver_5049 Sep 16 '23
can you explain mechanical grip. Like every team has the same tyre compound. So , is mechanical grid largely dependent on suspension settings or any other factors come into play here
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u/runn5r Sep 16 '23
TL:DR the redbull is stiffer which is good for aero but puts more stress on the tyres, the ferrari has softer chassis and suspention creating more traction in slow corners.
The chassis and the suspension design and then set up of the car defines the mechanical grip (other than the tyres).
So between the design and set up choices every car has different levels of stiffness.
In simple terms a stiff chassis and suspension with create better aero performance, holding the body work attitude in the same or more consistent position of pitch/roll/yaw to the ground.
Whereas a softer setup with more flex offers greater mechanical grip (at the cost of aero performance) because of the shock absorption to bumps and direction in addition to the movement/deformation/flex of the tyre.
Sinapour being all slow speed corners makes a softer setup faster (unlike most other circuits) and my guess is the operating window of the redbull is much stiffer which is part as to why its aweo is so good but that advantage means little on these slow corners.
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u/HarryNohara Sep 15 '23
Only their 1 lap pace seems to be an issue, but since it's friday it doesn't exactly seem like something they can't solve in a day.
Plus they seem to be losing that time on the straights. A few weeks ago we saw Red Bull will run friday's with very conservative engine modes.
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u/MattytheWireGuy Red Bull Sep 15 '23
Its not even that bad and they were running more fuel as well. Assuming Max doesnt run out of gas again, he should be competing for the front row and is likely to win on race pace (which RBR has prioritized heavily this year).
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Sep 16 '23
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u/F1Technical-ModTeam Sep 16 '23
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u/Ambitious-Daikon-360 Sep 16 '23
now can someone explain?
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u/Diligent_Driver_5049 Sep 16 '23
Max was saying on the radio that he was drifting, struggling with rear grip. Maybe the stiff chassie and suspension not working well here. Or max is displaying an oscar worthy performance to make us believe that
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u/Fatal-Arrow Sep 16 '23
Incoming conspiracy theory that Verstappen was just sandbagging to have some more fun in the race
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u/Asleep-Actuator-7292 Sep 16 '23
What does overall race pace look like though at this point, could they be struggling with tire temps too much to get going?
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u/Yann1zs Sep 16 '23
According to Marc Hughes they had to raise the car height, compared to other circuits. Taking away the advantage they have compared to other teams on the previous tracks. They raised it here because of the bumpy roadsurface wearing down the plank.
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u/Mental-Shower-9697 Sep 16 '23
I think the Red Bull platform works best when the track surface is smooth, allowing the floor to operate at a fixed space above the track; with a street circuit, there are many different surface types, bumps, etc. which causes their suspension to move to accommodate, and in doing so, impacts the ability of the car to maintain a fixed distance from floor to track. Just my opinion...
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u/RegularRust Sep 15 '23 edited Sep 15 '23
In this GP the FIA has changed the rules regarding the flexibility of some aero parts for all cars. It's unknown which team had an advantage thanks to that extra flex. So, maybe, RB is not that good anymore because of that. That's my theory.
Edit: more info about the technical directive https://www.sportskeeda.com/f1/news-explained-the-new-fia-technical-directive-set-introduced-2023-f1-singapore-gp
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 Sep 15 '23
So you think flexi aero parts at a low speed track make... any difference?
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u/RegularRust Sep 15 '23
No idea, just trying to find an answer. They won in Monaco, the slowest speed track in the calendar.
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u/zacharymc1991 Sep 15 '23
Monaco was a lot of upgrades ago, I'm not saying they aren't going to win, but who knows. They have tonight to figure it out.
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Sep 16 '23
Max beat Alonso with few hundredth to get pole. And RB stop bringing big upgrade while other team does.
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u/Castille210 Verified F1 Software Engineer Sep 15 '23
It’s a high downforce track. Flexi parts are probably far more effective
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 Sep 15 '23
The flex happens at load, which happens at speed.
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u/bluebird_14 Sep 15 '23
Well the load is directly proportional to speed, so you’re right. While the load is less at lower speeds a car with better aero will still be quicker regardless of what speed. And the flex can also be fine tuned for the expected load, higher speed = stiffer, lower speed = softer.
It’s also a bit crazy to think that F1 cars at “slow” speed is still significantly faster than most cars at their high speed. You only have to put your hand (a very inefficient aerofoil) out a car window at 30mph to realise how effective a well designed aerofoil can work at even at 60mph.
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u/Castille210 Verified F1 Software Engineer Sep 16 '23
Tbh I don’t have much of an idea how different the max speeds are between say Monza and Singapore are, I imagine the shallow wings they run at high speed track produce less downforce at peak speed than a high downforce wing at a low speed track peak speed, but an just doing armchair aero here
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u/FrankLloydWrong_3305 Sep 16 '23
It's not really about max speed at all, it's about time spent at high speed per lap.
Right, if the flexi aero does more work at high speed, then the proportion of every lap at high speed would be the driving factor, not top speed.
Also, historically flexi aero has been used to decrease drag at speed, with the consequence of lower downforce; this is useful on the front straight in Baku, but far less so around Singapore.
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u/Galactus1612 Sep 15 '23
Trouble? Hardly, it's called sandbagging
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u/Rivendel93 Sep 16 '23
I don't know. Max slammed his steering wheel when he crossed the line, he was furious.
I expect him to win by 30 seconds still, but he was absolutely furious in fp2.
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u/Verdin88 Sep 16 '23
It could possibly be due to the technical directive that got rid of flexi wings. We just have to wait and see. Redbull may have had their wings clipped.
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Sep 16 '23
to be fair, changing the floor and wings to be in compliance may have knock on effects, it's not just about wether or not they flex in Singapore
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u/weetabix_su Sep 16 '23 edited Sep 16 '23
wait for qualifying. it's still free practice so they might just be sandbagging.
EDIT: holy heck they weren't sandbagging wth
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Sep 16 '23
FIA stiffened up the wings but the English media will probably keep that as low key as possible as usual.
Wouldn't want for Red Bull to be caught cheating AGAIN. 🤣
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u/d-a-s-a-l-i Sep 16 '23
it’s only free practice. Red Bull will find that tenth they’re away from Ferrari to secure pole position, which then allows them to slightly compromise on race pace, since we’re on a street circuit where overtaking is very hard.
Ferrari also has plenty of time to misjudge the data and go into the wrong direction in regards to their setup.
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u/talon6actual Sep 16 '23
It will be interesting to see how the race turns out and Horners and Verstappens reaction, and the possible penalty for Verstappen impeding.
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Sep 15 '23
TD039 was adjusted, apparently to hurt Red Bull's flexing floor. So that might be a part. Then, maybe they came to Singapore without a perfect initial setup.
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u/Vivid-Tip3110 Sep 15 '23
TD18 might be a factor. They said the track wasn't gonna be the best for their car but have admitted they were way worse than expected. I'll be betting on a non RB win this weekend.
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u/Supahos01 Sep 15 '23
Of all the tracks on the circuit td18 won't matter this is the second least important one
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u/Diligent_Driver_5049 Sep 15 '23
what is TD18
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u/Supahos01 Sep 15 '23
Flexy wing rule change. They don't go fast enough at Singapore for it to make much difference
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Sep 15 '23
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u/Girth_rulez Sep 15 '23
33 had 2 aborted laps today, didn't see it but he was at least a second up on the rest...P3 tomorrow will see whether there's an issue
Why are you drunkenly yelling?
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u/k2_jackal Sep 15 '23 edited Sep 15 '23
Maybe he was a second up (which I doubt) because his aborted laps were for track limits violations.
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u/FavaWire Sep 16 '23
Wait for Practice 3.
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u/Negative_Strain_4581 Sep 17 '23
Max beats the record of consecutive wins, Liberty Media is concerned with Red Bull's dominance, and what happens in this race? Circus Maximus. Don't worry, next race everything will be "normal" again.
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