r/F1Technical Apr 21 '23

Picture/Video Not sure if Ferrari currently runs these, but they look incredible

Post image
998 Upvotes

65 comments sorted by

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306

u/3DRAH33M Apr 21 '23

Pretty sure they use carbon fibre plates for the pedals. The ones in the photo are just for a demonstration.

199

u/scarbstech Verified Apr 21 '23

These were a technology demonstrator, they've not been used or even tested as far as I know. Teams are incredibly careful with pedal construction, especially the brake. For obvious safety reasons, given the huge loads its under. F1 pedals are currently made from either carbon fibre or machined aluminium, there's no pattern to the throttle or brake preferring one material or the other. There was a Mercedes throttle I was once saw that appeared to be 3D printed, but a solid part, not the lattice structure seen here. Also, it was a 'plastic' part, with a slightly orange colour. I could never get it confirmed either way, if it was indeed a printed part.

43

u/brolix Apr 21 '23

I got a virtual tour of the Merc factory about two years ago and they definitely had 3d printers for printing metal parts. Can’t remember what they were printing, but we talked about them and they’re definitely in use.

44

u/scarbstech Verified Apr 21 '23

Yes they're definitely in use, all teams use them and the modern F1 racecar is full of parts printed in metal and resins

9

u/Poophead85 Apr 22 '23

The resin part surprises me. I know there are more durable resins available, but most (from my experience) are still fairly brittle. I am a bit surprised that much of anything 3d printed in resin could last on an F1 car.

6

u/SuppaBunE Apr 22 '23

They just probably 3d print things and cast them latter,

3

u/Poophead85 Apr 22 '23

Maybe, but that isn't what he said. He said 3D resin parts on the car, not cast parts from a printed model.

3

u/AhoyWilliam Apr 22 '23

I can't imagine what they'd be printing from resin, purely because I have made a few transponder holders for Merc (in like 2014, and I quit after that because I kept fucking up the corners of them - bridging - and the wankers I was working with were making my mental health awful... anyway) and those were straight up prepreg CFRP. Probably weighed 4 grammes on a heavy day. I can't see how even something like that could be improved upon by 3dp.

1

u/herc2712 Apr 23 '23

Nope We have this one in the office it’s an EOS metal printer demo part Titanium print with topology optimisation Amazing how light but stiff it is

1

u/Kn1pz_ Apr 26 '23

How did you get the virtual tour?

2

u/brolix Apr 26 '23

The company I work for is a pretty big sponsor and I won an internal contest where a few of us got the tour. It was really cool and included sone Q&A where they actually gave us great answers for stuff.

12

u/ShortysTRM Apr 22 '23

I don't think most people understand the amount of pressure required on an F1 brake pedal. As you know, it's not like the pedal in your Toyota. If I remember correctly, it's something like 70 kilos of pressure on the pedal to get the brakes to full force (not lockup), and a broken brake pedal isn't something the FIA, F1, or your driver would be happy about. While neat looking, I agree, I don't think any team would ever use the pedal in OP's picture.

8

u/abscissa081 Apr 22 '23

It’s completely up to the driver how the pedal feels. Well documented. Some drivers like a button of a pedal, some like a long pedal

0

u/AhoyWilliam Apr 22 '23

The force can be the same, regardless of travel.

2

u/abscissa081 Apr 23 '23

The pressure needed to brake is completely adjustable as well. Some want it stiff some don’t. Stiff brakes in modern f1 or GT cars is not accurate more often than not

1

u/AhoyWilliam Apr 23 '23

I would like to see a source on that claim rather than taking it at face value. Regardless, pedal travel isn't directly related to pedal force input.

1

u/abscissa081 Apr 23 '23

Never said it was.

0

u/AdBasic8210 Apr 23 '23

This is not true. While it is a hydraulic circuit, you can think of the brake caliphate like a spring. There will be some movement in the pedal no matter what. Because of conservation of energy, if a different size master cylinder is used, the force required changes and as such the master cylinder travel will change.

1

u/AhoyWilliam Apr 23 '23

I never said there was no movement in the pedal, just that the force being exerted can be the same, whether or not the pedal travels 1mm or 100mm. The drivers brake by controlling the pressure (if you plotted brake pedal force input against pedal travel this would be the independent variable), not their foot movement (dependent variable), and driver preference re: pedal travel can be achieved by adjusting the master cylinder dimension and pedal lever ratio.

4

u/cyanide Apr 22 '23

It’s probably more than 70 kilos. Due to the tight constraints within the footwell, they cannot make very long pedals (to get enough leverage), so a shorter pedal means more pressure required. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was around 100 kg. They could use smaller master cylinders, but that would mean a longer range of motion, which is generally undesirable.

2

u/_I_AM_BATMAN_ Apr 23 '23

Seeing as this is an engineering forum I'm required to point out that 70 kilograms is not a measure of pressure.

2

u/ShortysTRM Apr 23 '23

Yeah, thanks Batman.

Load. Force.

1

u/broodro0ster Apr 23 '23

It’s 100-140kg on the brake pedal.

8

u/TechingHam Apr 22 '23

Craig, while lattices look really nice in photos, they are almost never the best way to distribute material in a component where weight and stiffness (or strength) are being optimized. The best way to get high specific strength or stiffness is to distribute material far away from the neutral axis. This is why it wouldn't make sense to use in a pedal application.

There are some disclaimers like lattice can be used to eliminate the need for support material, and it is great for energy absorption when plastic deformation is expected.

6

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '23

[deleted]

8

u/TechingHam Apr 22 '23

My statement (which comes from firsthand professional experience) assumes the use of modern topology optimization (AKA generative design) software such as Inspire, nTopology, or Autodesk GD.

There are 2 primary things to consider: 1. Material near the centerline of bending ("neutral axis") does little to resist deflection. It does not matter if this material is fancy AI lattice or machined stock. There can be a good case for thicker ligaments that cross through the neutral axis. These thicker ligaments would not be considered lattice by most in the additive manufacturing industry. 2. Lattice has a very high ratio of surface area to interior volume. A major problem with this when made via additive manufacturing is that the surface is rough and more prone to porosity. The results of this are that a printed lattice is not as strong as predicted in software (where roughness is unaccounted for) and that there is extra material in thr rough areas that adds weight but little structural benefit. Both of the aforementioned results add mass to a product with lattice, which is the last thing wanted when the goal is to optimize weight.

5

u/gannonburgett Apr 21 '23

Thanks for the info, Scarbs. Figured it hadn’t actually been in use, but was busy when I came across this and first cross-posted. I’ll have to look into it all a bit more tonight when I have more time (currently jury duty is taking up my days).

2

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '23

Titanium is also super brittle, so there would be a real risk of ones like this shattering after a serious knock, which isn't really ideal for a brake pedal. So they would want to test the ever loving fuck out of it before putting it in a car.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '23

[deleted]

2

u/scarbstech Verified Apr 22 '23

Similar, perhaps darker. Most experts thought it was a peek-like material when we discussed it.

92

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

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u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

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0

u/F1Technical-ModTeam Apr 22 '23

Your comment was removed as it broke Rule 2: No Joke comments in the top 2 levels under a post.

3

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

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0

u/F1Technical-ModTeam Apr 22 '23

Your comment was removed as it broke Rule 2: No Joke comments in the top 2 levels under a post.

19

u/gulgin Apr 21 '23

This is interesting as the 3D print optimization looks very much like a structural mesh rather than an actual structural optimization. I would not expect this kind of design to be close to optimal structurally.

9

u/GregLocock Apr 21 '23

I agree, that is not the typical sort of shape you get from a structural optimiser. The load paths in a brake pedal are pretty obvious.

24

u/cramr Apr 21 '23

As they say in the original post comments, those are just a demo part and no a F1 pedal nor they weigh 30 grams. those are F1 lile pedas

3

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '23

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1

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4

u/TacoExcellence Apr 21 '23

I'm confused why would you think this is an F1 part?

12

u/OldManInTheOutfield Apr 21 '23

It says right there it was made for an F1 car, have you ever known something to be untrue on reddit?

2

u/TacoExcellence Apr 21 '23

I feel like I'm missing something - there's no text on the picture anywhere?

6

u/OldManInTheOutfield Apr 21 '23

It's a cross post from another sub and the caption carried over from that. Odd that you don't see that.

4

u/TacoExcellence Apr 21 '23

Oh weird, thank you. This whole post suddenly makes a lot more sense, even if I would never have believed they were for an F1 car. Relay app doesn't like it I guess

2

u/eyedpee Apr 21 '23

How the fuck do you 3D print with titanium? That machine has got to be hot af

5

u/TechingHam Apr 22 '23

Laser melting. Usually 400-1000 watt lasers. Think of it like welding powdered titanium together using a laser instead of an electrode.

2

u/eyedpee Apr 22 '23

That's crazy I didn't know they had something that could do that with a printer

3

u/TechingHam Apr 22 '23

Check this out, if you'd like to see how it's done. https://youtu.be/r8_M995cwAA

2

u/eyedpee Apr 22 '23

I will, thank you!

1

u/Altruistic_Profit_15 Apr 24 '23

In a process known as selective laser sintering, or in this case direct metal laser sintering, in which layers of a fine metal powder are distibuted across a surface and a high power laser is directed at very specific locations across each layer, melting the powder in highly precise stages, which can allow for the creation of parts such as the ones above

2

u/eggheadking Apr 22 '23

I doubt they use this. I mean why on earth would you use titanium when you have durable light choices. There are teams who aren’t painting their car at all, I doubt Ferrari would do this

But then again They’re Ferrari Charles would probably need it so that he can furiously stomp on the pedal when the engineer tells him there’s a problem with the car

-21

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

[deleted]

19

u/gannonburgett Apr 21 '23

Mods are free to delete if they agree.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

[deleted]

11

u/Marmmalade1 Verified Motorsport Performance Engineer Apr 21 '23

Says in the title, 3D printing. If I remember correctly they don’t actually use these and it was just for a display, having seen the images before with those comments

2

u/[deleted] Apr 21 '23

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1

u/R9D11 Apr 22 '23

Ferrari,titanium and 30 grams that would make the perfect breakpedal,a brake pedal that breaks cause brake pedals in a F1 car have to be kicked in,up to 200 kilograms of force.

1

u/Thatboi51 Apr 24 '23

They run'em for Carlos's car, they would be to reliable for Charles.