r/F1Technical • u/HolyKoiFish • Apr 03 '23

Safety What does it mean when Hulkenberg's engineer tells him to do an "ers jump out"?

here's the link to his engine failure radio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3QOJWVMdtY&t=135s

I assume it has something to do with the PU but at the same time it sounds like some sort of safety procedure. Could anyone weigh in on what happened here?

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314

u/VulcanHullo Apr 03 '23

It means there is a chance that the car is likely live electronically. Cars are made from carbon which is conductive and when the electronic recovery system or in old days kers gets damaged it can basically render the car live.

So you need to not become part of the electrical circuit as you leave the car. So, you jump out so upon landing NOTHING is still in contact with the car.

83

u/HolyKoiFish Apr 03 '23

wow! interesting, thank you for replying that makes a lot of sense, and very scary since people tend to flood the circuit after the race!

109

u/GnrDreagon Apr 04 '23

Which is exactly why the GP organizers had to report to the stewarts after the race.

36

u/BradFromTinder Mercedes Apr 04 '23

Those dang Stewarts.

24

u/ltjpunk387 Apr 04 '23

Yeah, where is Chain Bear anyway? Is he ok? I miss his videos

6

u/lazespud2 Apr 04 '23

Jackie especially

4

u/TulioGonzaga Apr 04 '23

I heard they're called Red Bull now

26

u/ron_fendo Apr 04 '23 edited Apr 04 '23

This is why they all have gotten into he habit of climbing out into the nose area then jumping. At this point it feels like none of them even risk climbing down,they just jump incase the car is live.

31

u/ernie-flanders Apr 03 '23

It’s only scary if you touch the car and the ground at the same time. You become the path of least resistance for electrical current to flow through.

23

u/SemIdeiaProNick Apr 04 '23

someone that invaded a live track might not be smart enough to think about those things when they have the chance to touch an F1 car

4

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

only of the electrical system is somehow connected to ground already

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u/[deleted] Apr 04 '23 edited Jun 23 '23

psychotic deserve deer compare roof childlike bike consider gray rob -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/

2

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

you need to complete the circuit, if you are the only connection to ground the circuit isn't completed

1

u/leachja Apr 04 '23

If the chassis of the car is energized, and a person touches it while at the same time having touching the ground they likely become the easiest path to ground, thus completing the circuit.

-1

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

one connection to ground does not a complete circuit

2

u/leachja Apr 04 '23

One connection to ground does complete a circuit.

If you've got a source, with potential to ground, and you decide to put your body between that source, and ground you have completed the circuit using your body as the resistor between them.

3

u/SwaggyT17 Apr 04 '23

This. Not enough people realise this fact. Electricity will not flow to ground unless it is closing a loop.

2

u/ConTejas624 Apr 04 '23

I’m this case you’re thinking about it in terms of electric potential, and the car likely has a higher potential than the ground, so with just one pathway the charge will want to equalize. See lighting for a higher voltage example

1

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

that would be like that zap you might get from touching a door handle in winter, static electricity, uncomfortable but not dangerous and it has nothing to do with the ERS

1

u/Building_Plenty Apr 06 '23

Mr electrician are we now

1

u/Comfortable-Piano135 Apr 07 '23

As an electrician I can confirm therealdilbert is correct. The ERS jump is likely an extra precaution taken to ensure there is zero chance of a shock in case of an electrical fault, but a driver touching a live frame of the car with no other earth reference there is no risk of shock. Electricity be wild

1

u/Overhere_Overyonder Apr 04 '23

I believe in the F1 radio chat youtube video where you hear that radio, you see him do a dramatic/showy little jump out of the car so that at knoe point is he touching the car and the ground. I

16

u/89Hopper Apr 04 '23

So what happens in the event of you being in a flipped car? Do you just have to wait until someone can assist? Does this increase risk if you are in an accident that leads to a fire and you are upside down? I'm assuming it takes a specific kind of fault/damage to make the car live, so you would take the risk of touching car/ground at the same time to get out of a fire.

Or is this a case of, if the car is upside down, the bodywork will ground itself (no tyres acting as insulation) so you should be fine?

30

u/Splatter1842 Apr 04 '23

If I'm not mistaken, it is exactly the latter. The tires are acting as insulation in a normal situation. Inverted, there would be a direct contact point, so no need to worry.

24

u/89Hopper Apr 04 '23

Yeah, that makes sense. My above post it was starting to dawn on me as I was writing the question. Now I'm kind of wanting to see F1 cars with crappy grounding straps dangling behind them like a 90s corolla.

2

u/Banaanmetzout Apr 04 '23

They have the titanium skidpad although titanium is a bad conductor for a metal.

2

u/lazespud2 Apr 04 '23

Technically the skid pad is wood (a beechwood plywood composite called "jabroc") which has small titanium nubs sticking out a few millimeters, generating the sparks we all love to see.

2

u/Banaanmetzout Apr 04 '23

That a cool bit of info didn't know that thanks

2

u/lazespud2 Apr 04 '23

Yeah it's weird to think these super high-tech vehicles have a big old piece of plywood mounted under them.

Here's a great, super detailed article about the plank, with awesome pictures of Ralf Schumacher flying through the air showing how big the planks are:

https://www.formula1-dictionary.net/plank_or_skidblock.html

1

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

if the car is insulated from ground there can't be any current from touching ground and the car

2

u/michelemussap Apr 04 '23

They just don’t have to create a connection between the car and the ground with driver’s legs. If they do so they would be cooked

1

u/BDady Apr 04 '23

Similar thing happened to Vettel at Zandvoort during s practice session. Think it was in 2021, but possibly 2022

58

u/Accurate_Western_346 Apr 03 '23

Since the KERS only times it's been like this. If it's still loaded you can get shocked pretty bad.
Carbon fiber is a great conductor

-4

u/therealdilbert Apr 04 '23

carbon fiber is not a very good conductor and he didn't get a shock until his hands touched the car is two different places, possibly on two screws or similar

37

u/Horatio-Leafblower Apr 04 '23 edited Apr 04 '23

It is also worth mentioning there is an official investigation underway as to why Hulks car was left un guarded/ protected from the crowds entering the track at the close of the race. There is clear vision of the car swamped by spectators and the Red Danger light is still clearly on.

7

u/skylinepidgin Apr 04 '23

My theory would be that majority of the marshals are already concentrated near the podium idk I could be wrong.

6

u/richard_muise Apr 04 '23

Most marshals would still be at their marshal post (MP) that quickly after the GP. There's lots to do, such as putting their equipment where it can be picked up, end of day radio messages, and waiting for the buses to pick them up and bring back to the marshal meeting around (likely for some drinks and food). The buses cannot go out to start the pick up (remember, the circuit is over 4km long) until they can safely navigate the circuit, which means they are delayed when there is a track invasion.

The podium area has their own marshals from pit lane and scrutineering / technical inspectors.

3

u/OneTravellingMcDs Apr 04 '23

How do they test it for safety if the light is on?

1

u/Verdin88 Aug 28 '23

If the light is on red its an indicator that there is a fault with the electronics and the car May be live. The light itself is an indication of a self test the car performs automatically.

13

u/Void_X_Genome Apr 04 '23

Im guessing something similar with what happened to the number 8 Toyota in 6h of spa last year. Potential electrical problem so the drivers need to jump out of the car without contact

14

u/tnatsworthy Apr 04 '23

There's a lot of misinformation (or at least exaggeration) on the dangers of the ERS system in this thread. The ERS is isolated from the rest of the car and the earth in normal operation. In a crash or due to other errors things can break and things might not be isolated anymore. This I'm guessing is what causes the red flashing indicating "the car is not guaranteed to be safe". Even in this case it is very unlikely that touching the car will cause any harm, because you would only be connected to it in one spot (where the fault is). So no current would travel through your body.

Only in the case that there are multiple faults (to both positive and negative) in such a way that there is no short between them, would it be dangerous to touch it, but only if you touch it in two spots in such a way that you short it. This is EXTREMELY unlikely.

That said, the ERS jumpout seems unnecessary to me. I guess they do it to cover the one-in-a-million chance that one pole of the ERS has faulted to the chassis and the other to the earth.

See also this presentation from the FIA for circuit personnel, esp. the last slide.

7

u/Fond_ButNotInLove Apr 04 '23

Others have explained it but here's the clip of him actually doing it. https://youtu.be/PyM5i_fYDuw?t=510

4

u/Annual-Rip4687 Apr 04 '23

Don’t touch body of car and jump out.