r/Documentaries • u/saddetective87 • Dec 15 '22
Ancient History Why Did The Roman Empire Collapse With Mary Beard (2022) - The fall of the Roman Empire is still shrouded in controversy and mystery. Mary Beard delves into if this superpower of the Ancient World really collapsed and if so why and when. [00:59:16]
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-j7vMwREKKg&feature=share53
u/Slatedtoprone Dec 15 '22
If it collapsed? It’s not still around. It got split up, over extended on the western front until it couldn’t support its borders and suffered raids, while the east did its own thing until it fought with, I believe, the Turks and got conquered.
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u/Throwawaydontgoaway8 Dec 16 '22
Right, which was a process of what, like a couple hundred years? I think collapse implies sudden, like when a country has a revolution or civil war that changes something dramatically. One of the definitions for it “to fall or shrink together abruptly “
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u/SlouchyGuy Dec 16 '22
Right, which was a process of what, like a couple hundred years?
Eastern part fell almost a thousand years later
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u/account_not_valid Dec 16 '22
A more recent example would be the British Empire. It just became unsustainable.
We're currently watching the Russian Emipire>USSR>Russian Federation>??
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u/Pudding_Hero Dec 16 '22
The Eastern Roman Empire wasn’t conquered until 1453 as the Capitol was taken and those people very much referred to themselves as Roman.
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u/ManlySyrup Dec 15 '22 edited Dec 16 '22
Why did it collapse with Mary Beard? What did she do??
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u/mrRwild Dec 16 '22
This is what I’ve been saying all along. Punctuation can change the course of history.
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u/OriVerda Dec 16 '22
Based on the thumbnail, something tells me this "Mary Beard" may have been responsible.
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u/srfergus Dec 16 '22
Love this woman. She presents which great enthusiasm. Wish I had her as a professor.
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u/JerryConn Dec 16 '22
Calling it a mystery is like calling the sahara a "surprisingly" dry dessert. Its not a surprise if it is in the name.
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u/Kenway Dec 16 '22
To be fair, it would be very surprising to get the Sahara on a plate after a nice dinner. I'm sure it'd be dry as well. 😜
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u/lostmymeds Dec 16 '22
It didn't collapse. It changed. Blame Constantinople and his conversion to Christianity. The battlefield and the spoils of war changed; more gain was to be found in conquering the human spirit versus mere territory. I give you The Holy Roman (Empire) Church!
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u/howtoproceedforward Dec 15 '22
This is the dumbest way to make a video documentary. There isn't a second empire in history studied as well as the Romans. We know why they collapsed. Actually we know of it far too well. Weak Emperors, over-extension, degrading military capability in the face of more capable adversaries, and a decline in capable institutions. These are some of the reasons. I'm downvoting this video.
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u/KoldPurchase Dec 16 '22
Controversy, maybe. People can't agree when it really ceased to exist, even though 476 is a pretty convenient date since there were no more Emperor in the West after that.
Mystery, I beg to disagree. Rome is kinda well known and studied.
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u/panckage Dec 15 '22
I remember Mary Beard claiming that Hadrian's wall was only 3 feet tall in one of her Documentaries... And that it wasn't used for defence 😂
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u/Inflation-nation Dec 15 '22
Did she actually say that? Lol.
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u/panckage Dec 15 '22
I'm paraphrasing but something like that. She stood by a portion of Hadrian's wall near waist height and asked the audience why the Romans would build a wall so short. Her answer? It wasn't a defensive wall but rather just to let the people know that Roman's owned the other side... like a simple garden fence kind of deal
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Dec 16 '22
Sounds like you just don’t get her humour.
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u/panckage Dec 16 '22
What am I missing?
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Dec 16 '22
- She’s not literally suggesting that the wall was only every three feel high, it’s just a little joke about the hight that it is nowadays. Hard to explain this to be honest, you either get it or you don’t.
- She’s also not saying that defence wasn’t the point. But that the intimidation factor of a huge wall across the country was a big factor in keeping people out. It sends a message to the “barbarians” that it would be a bad to try to cross the border because there would be hoards of Roman legionnaires behind it. Realistically speaking though they never would have had enough men to actually be able to patrol every inch of English landscape.
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u/panckage Dec 17 '22
Thanks for the clarifications! She only showed the short wall and made her assertion based on that. Totally misleading for her to put it that way!
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Dec 16 '22
Because they went woke with liberalism. That's why they had wide open borders. I stopped teaching their kids proper things that became sexual deviance and perverts and weirdos. They spend all their money like it was going out of style.
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Dec 16 '22
Im going unhistoric on this one.
The gods wanted it so.
They favored the romans after the Greeks started to disappoint.
The Roman’s grew arrogant and many thought of themselves as gods instead, eventually started worshipping a false diety and voila the collapse began.
Proof me wrong. :P
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u/Fuself Dec 16 '22
someone must tell the inconvenient truth:
because mass immigration, no one felt he was really a Roman citizen anymore even emperors where "foreigners"
look what's happening in France now where Moroccans put several cities "under siege" after the Moroccan team lost against France team in Qatar World Football Cup.
Aren't they French? aren't they born in France?
yes technically they are, but in reality they are still Moroccans in their hearts, religion and traditions they're from a different culture that cannot be assimilate inside western countries
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Dec 16 '22
I think you're placing your own bias and world view onto a 1500 year old event which is much more complex and nuanced. Yes we can always draw parallels and look back at history to help us going forward but the fall of the Roman Empire is not comparable to Moroccans in France after the world cup.
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u/Fuself Dec 16 '22
not at all, I already answered another comment. I will not repeat myself again and again to everyone who dont agree.
what I wrote isn't my opinion... many historians agreed on this view
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u/thinthehoople Dec 16 '22
Ah, the “many people are saying it” proof of a theorem. Good times.
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u/Fuself Dec 16 '22
I already pointed out that a detailed answer is under another comment, are you illiterate or plain dumb?
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u/thinthehoople Dec 16 '22
So you count your own un-cited claims as “many people?”
Interesting.
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u/Fuself Dec 17 '22
no I answered in a very detailed message citing historians names and researchers answering another comment... that I can't find anymore. I now understand that Reddit isn't the right places to discuss anything with anyone, it's good only if you have time to spare... that btw I don't have I don't need to engage in endless unproductive arguments with anyone, keep you opinions. people like yourself maybe love trolling and waste time online, not myself As we say in Italy "portare conoscenza a chi vuole rimanere ignorante è come regalare collane di perle ai maiali" or "A lavare la testa all'asino si sprecano acqua e sapone"
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u/PhoneQuomo Dec 16 '22
Prepare for downvotes. Nobody wants to hear this truth. The west is collapsing the same way Rome did, even canada is gonna be canastan in the near future...
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u/Blueshirt38 Dec 16 '22 edited Dec 16 '22
It's so weird that white people only complain about the "collapse" or "takeover" of white countries. White societies (some of which fighting a thousand miles from their homes) throughout Europe fight over the same lands and constantly overtake each other for thousands of years: that's normal; non-white group fights over that same land: uh oh society is collapsing.
You don't seem to have any reverence for the plight of the people who lived in Canada before people that looked like you became the majority, but as soon as "'refugees'" (double quotation because you put the word in sarcastic quotes whenever you say it) show up, Now it is "Canastan". Completely transparent.
Oh and maybe you should have looked into the Fuself guy's previous comments before going all in on agreeing with him, because he seems to be equating being able to drive before you are an adult with being able to consent to sex with adults as a minor. He also refers to American Indians as "protected as an endangered species", and talk about how Jews run finance. Seems to be okay with being sexual with minors until a man in a dress is involved. Some pretty sour opinions coming from the guy you want to ally with.
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Dec 16 '22
I would probably explore and research the issue more, rather than hearing Joe Rogan talk about it and see some Muslims move into your particular city before you call it "truth". To think about something based on your world view and bias as objective truth and anything anyone else says are just blind idiot sheep is not a way to view the world that is helpful or insightful at all. Look at the history more deeply, recognise there were thousands of different problems the Roman Empire faced over its near thousand year existence (nearly 2000 if you include the Eastern Roman Empire). Some are parallel to what we face today because any society all can face similar problems. But to attribute the fall of one of the world's largest ever empires to just immigration because you personally are opposed to it achieves nothing other than to continue to divide people and create perpetual conflict.
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u/Fuself Dec 16 '22
Joe Rogan? who is he?
I didn't invent nothing, many prominent historians (in Italy we have Alessandro Barbero) say exactly this.
The main reason was that at one point in history the incapacity to absorb other cultures inside the Roman Empire prevailed over the forces that kept the Empire united, the soldiers and the populations did not feel Roman and over time the "Roman spirit" was simply lost.
It began from the periphery of the empire up to Rome where the last emperors were not Italian but came from the provinces even from far away from Rome
If you don't like it it's your problem... I told already that is a uncomfortable truth. Deal with it
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u/gecko090 Dec 16 '22
If you can't grasp that the Roman Empires problems were complex and it makes you uncomfortable to accept that history is more complicated than you think, that's your problem.
Deal with it.
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u/Fuself Dec 16 '22
I knew already... reddit users are so democratic that they love to censor any thought that doesn't conform to the dominant thought, but they are not "smart" enough to understand that conforming at any cost even at the expense of the truth does nothing but make them voluntary slaves...
they ignore that it is the minority that it doesn't conform that has always advanced human civilization.
Who knows how many times the Wright brothers have been considered crazy visionaries but now after 100 years, we manage to send rovers to Mars...
As you said correctly, the west is collapsing, immigration is very good only when is under a certain ratio and a certain threshold that allows the integration of immigrants
it's ridiculous that they don't understand because the USA born precisely this way... by replacing indigenous native populations with a massive immigrant population
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u/sparkie0501 Dec 16 '22
I’m about to check this out, I find it very interesting. I believe the powers shifted to the newly emerging Christian religion and ultimately still exist in the Vatican
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Dec 16 '22
Now I'm imagining a futurekind historian 2000 years from now walking through the crumbling ruins of Old New York/London, talking about the rise and fall of the U.S. or Britain or whatever.
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u/Captain_Nemo_2012 Dec 16 '22
You might want to check out the book "The Fate of Rome" by Kyle Harper, an excellent and well documented book on climate, disease and the end of the Roman Empire.
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u/blackerjw6 Dec 16 '22
The collapse of nearly every empire in the history of humanity can be traced back to simple old fashioned corruption, nepotism, cronyism and incompetence. They are all symptoms of one another.
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u/waaaaaaaaaaaat_ Dec 16 '22
If you’re looking for more on this topic and like podcasts, may I recommend the following:
1a) & 1b) The Fall of Rome Podcast AND Tides of History (season 1) by Dr. Patrick Wyman (the first is free on Spotify and traces the big historical trends that led to the “fall” and what it actually meant to the people living through it; while the second is his essentially finishing the story/analysis after moving from indie podcast to a member of the Wondery group).
And 2) The History of Rome Podcast by Mike Duncan (free on all podcast platforms), one of the first mega-hit podcasts that traces the conventional history of Rome from its mythic past to the traditional date of “the fall” in 476 CE. While it’s very much a “great man/important dates” telling, it does a great job of outlining the major events/migrations/crises that birthed and eventually ended the empire. Especially in the final 50 or so eps, you really get the rapid fire collapse of the imperial project.
Having listened to both twice through, my personal conclusion is that Rome didn’t “fall” (at least not until the Ottomans conquered Constantinople in the 15th Century), but rather experienced a “breakup” into smaller constituent states (the various barbarian kingdoms, Italy included, and the Eastern/Byzantine Empire).
I also can’t recommend the rest of Tides of History’s seasons enough.
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u/kissingdistopia Dec 22 '22
I love Mary Beard and whoever edited this was in love with Mary Beard's shoes.
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u/DoppelFrog Dec 15 '22
I think it's a bit unfair to blame the entire collapse on Mary Beard. She was involved, but it wasn't all her fault.