r/CuratedTumblr • u/maleficalruin • 1d ago
Superman Grant Morrison is so based for going "The strongest power Superman has is the narrative behind him. He is the good side of every dichotomy, All the Worlds Hope. He will always prevail because that's how every story ends."
110
u/KentConnor 1d ago
I'm about to hyperfixate for a minute
Because Superman Vs Goku is a subject I've considered many times in my life lol.
The original post is correct on all its points. The characters and their values end almost all of them in a stalemate.
HOWEVER, IGNORING THAT.
imagine, if you will. Superman vs (end of Frieza on Namek arc) Goku. Freshly Ssj1.
the fight is on Namek
Namek has 3 YELLOW SUNS.
Superman's powers are fueled by the yellow sun.
I think that's a CLOSE match.
71
u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1d ago
superman major weakness is more his lack of formal training the story is more likely to end up with him in the time chamber training and learning how to use his power to the best from a fighting perspective.
also it would end up in a super overpowered bull shit fusion as that is inevitable
40
u/Adaphion 1d ago
Yeah, superman relies on his nigh invulnerability and super strength too much, but he can't fight fight that well. This is why, in sparing matches, he gets his ass kicked by the likes of Black Canary. He doesn't have technique.
He's a street brawling farmboy with super strength. But that's not really a problem, a street brawler with super strength is able to handle 90% of problems. His other powers supplement another 9%.
9
u/RevolutionaryOwlz 1d ago
Yup. Superman is potentially stronger than Goku and has more random powers, but Goku actually knows kung fu. Plus Goku being a shounen hero would probably allow him to find wacky ways to no sell a lot of Superman’s powers.
9
u/Adaphion 1d ago edited 23h ago
Really depends on the version of Superman. If you don't pull Death Battle bullshit and create an overpowered composite of dozens of versions of him with different feats, then Goku can probably come out on top.
If the likes of Darkseid and Doomsday can hurt or kill Superman, then Goku, even still in DBZ, not even including DBS stuff, should match him at the very least.
5
u/RevolutionaryOwlz 1d ago
I guess I should’ve specified I’m thinking about sheer physical strength and not an overall measure of power. I think default Superman and Goku are overall well matched. You’d really need to bring in total bullshit Silver Age Superman or All Star Superman for one that kicks Goku’s ass.
6
u/Consideredresponse 1d ago
Nah, superman got formal training during his (and this is very real) "leather posing pouch, chain wearing, silver fox, space gladiator, pacifist messiah" arc
It's cannon that Lois makes him break out the 'fetish fuel' outfit occasionally for well...fetish reasons.
1
u/abdomino 1d ago
Ok but Clarku though
1
u/novis-eldritch-maxim 1d ago
The name is a meh but it could be workshopped, but we know it would happen as it would be cool and sell stuff
2
u/_PM_ME_NICE_BOOBS_ 1d ago
Goklark?
1
89
u/DreadDiana human cognithazard 1d ago
I feel like this response to powerscaling fails to understand the actual motives behind power scaling
48
u/Invoquantes 1d ago
I see your point, but when we deal with characters with strengh that extreme and coming from different medium with different power systems, powerscaling will always be up for interpretation, and is gonna have a bit of the "white room" problem
16
u/Jupiter_Crush recreational semen appreciation 1d ago
how the hell am I supposed to advance the agenda like this?
11
u/tactical_hotpants 1d ago
Consider this: the actual motives behind power scaling are juvenile and stupid and not worth taking seriously.
21
u/Duck_Person1 1d ago
The motives are just fun
16
u/Ok-Reference-196 1d ago
I think the motives were fun. I think every nerd in human history has gotten into arguments with friends over which character is stronger or faster or cooler. Power scaling as a deliberate "hobby" sucks out the fun parts and replaces it with rules lawyering and a complete lack of understanding of the source material. Once you get seriously into something it's no longer about fun.
Like media criticism. Talking to friends about what makes a good movie good or a bad movie bad is a fun time with your mates. Online communities dedicated to media criticism are almost universally bitter, angry spaces where specific opinions are considered objective fact and deviation from them is harshly rebuked.
8
u/Ejigantor 1d ago
I'm with you. "Powerscaling" isn't friends discussing whether Batman could beat Daredevil in a fight, it's Fantasy Football, but without the objective foundation that are football game results.
They say Fantasy Football is D&D for jocks who look down on geeks. If that's true, then powerscaling is Fantasy Football for dweebs cosplaying as nerds.
2
u/Duck_Person1 22h ago
I don't really know how to reply because I've never experienced what you're claiming. The motives are still fun because it's still fun to do. There can always be someone who makes anything you do in a group no longer fun but it doesn't make the activity not fun.
1
u/GothmogTheOrc 1d ago
Both can be true.
3
u/Duck_Person1 1d ago
I'll take juvenile. It's not serious in the way that it doesn't matter. I wouldn't call it stupid though.
1
u/DreadDiana human cognithazard 1d ago
Your response also fails to understand the actual motives behind power scaling
1
u/TheFunkiestOne 2h ago edited 2h ago
As someone only tangentially involved in that particular ballgame, I'm curious what you'd define as the "actual motives" behind power scaling? Because I've seen it range from "its fun to try to Math Out stuff that wasn't mathed into in the source material to determine who would win in a fight by the numbers and accounting for differences in their works rules" all the way to some of the most pathetic pissing contests on the internet that are clearly motivated by a desire for your favorite thing that you've defined yourself by to be better than everything else. The former has elements of a sort of comparative media critique, looking at elements that aren't focused on much (because writers often don't have a great sense of scale in either direction) and is legitimately quite interesting,, but sadly always seems to be drowned out by the louder voices getting into fights about why their fave would actually win when I see the topic arise.
I don't consider either to be the "actual motive" because I kinda figure It Depends, but I also don't directly engage in the larger community, only seeing it from people talking about it in passing. So I want it to be clear that I'm being 100% genuine when I'm asking for your insight here.
-4
u/dazeychainVT 1d ago
Deriving some sense of purpose from the meaninglessness of existence by insisting that your favorite strong guy is stronger than all the other strong guys?
36
u/RunInRunOn 1d ago
"Deriving some sense of purpose from the meaningless of existence" describes every pastime ever, Jimmy
12
u/SirAquila 1d ago
Engaging in good fun with friends, conducting a mentally stimulating exercise of media literacy, basic detective work, and comparative physics and biology.
18
u/Ok-Reference-196 1d ago
You and I have vastly different experiences with power scalers. I have never met a power scalers with friends or media literacy.
1
u/SirAquila 1d ago
Ah yes, this niche hobby truly is only filled by dumb loosers we can laugh at. Forgive me but it was wrong with the last 10 niche hobbies people said that about, so I'd be rather surprised if it was true for power scalers.
-6
u/Ok-Reference-196 1d ago edited 1d ago
Found the power scaler.
Power scaling isn't a hobby, it's the most obnoxious part of dealing with fanboys across all genres of media stripped of all pretension and nuance. Engaging with it on any level beyond the occasional row with your mates is ridiculous. It's low effort fanboy engagement bait that fanboys fell for so incredibly hard that they've split it off into its own genre and act like it's important.
4
u/SirAquila 1d ago edited 1d ago
Nah, really not interested in it. Would have to read far too deep into far too many pieces of media to get to the fun part of it.
Also... how dare these people enjoy things in ways you find stupid. Truly you are the only bastion of truth left in a cruel world, and we all should bask in the glory of your superior media opinions. Because quite frankly from an outside perspective you seem to fit a lot of your own description of powerscalers.
18
u/hammererofglass 1d ago
Grant Morrison is a chaos magician so he was probably being completely literal about that.
9
u/BaronAleksei r/TwoBestFriendsPlay exchange program 1d ago
Well yeah, that’s what Final Crisis ended up being about
3
u/DreadDiana human cognithazard 1d ago
It's also a statement that just isn't true, since there are plenty of stories where he isn't presented as the good side or prevailing
21
u/Tried-Angles 1d ago
Now I want to see a fan comic that involves Goku cheerfully marking down the calendar to the day Superman has set aside for their formal match.
2
8
u/BaronAleksei r/TwoBestFriendsPlay exchange program 1d ago
Ok so who do Vegeta and Goku actually get to fight in DC? The first person who actually enjoys fighting that comes to mind is Wildcat
3
u/RevolutionaryOwlz 1d ago
I mean they gotta tangle with Batman at some point.
5
u/BaronAleksei r/TwoBestFriendsPlay exchange program 1d ago
Tbh I’ve never gotten the feeling from Batman stories that he enjoys fighting for its own sake
7
u/RevolutionaryOwlz 1d ago
In general, no. But you know Goku would hear about some guy who travelled around training with various martial artists and want to fight him.
Or it’d turn out like the Santa thing from some new holiday special where Goku and Batman already knew each other from back in the day.
6
3
15
u/Bob9thousand 1d ago
wow. you really got those powerscalers. say the Stan Lee thing next, they’ve probably never heard that one
sarcasm over: if you wanna make fun of them for thinking dodging lasers makes a character FTL then go ahead. they actually do need to hear that one more.
12
u/skaersSabody 1d ago
I feel like there is a specific subsection of Superman fans that just do not understand the appeal of powerscaling and cannot appreciate what is essentially fandom dickmeasuring
8
u/N4mFlashback 1d ago
I feel like that's innate with the philosophy of superman Vs the philosophy of power scaling. Good superman stuff is all about the story, not the battle, opposite applies for powerscaling stuff.
3
u/Consideredresponse 1d ago
It always comes down to two people going "Nuh-uh" and trying to one up each other. Superman is a nearly 90 years old and there have been so many versions and reboots that powerscaling is essentially meaningless as nearly everyone imagines and remembers a different version of the character.
E.g. "what if superman sings?" Can be a valid trump point if describing certain eras of publication. As is "assuming no one has access to a pre-crisis swamp thing..."
8
2
2
u/garnet-overdrive 20h ago
Yeah except that’s not why people do vs debates and shit. It’s because they enjoy figuring out how strong feats and such are and comparing those to others. Like yeah the narratives you can build are cool but like that’s not really the point for a lot of people.
3
u/LithiumPotassium 4h ago
The actual fight between Superman and Homelander basically doesn't even matter.
What matters is that Superman is more beloved and popular than Homelander, a fact which would make the latter furious. Every time Homelander has an interview, they're going to ask about Superman or compare him to him, and his eyes will twitch. Every time they both appear at the same charity event, Superman gets the louder cheers by far.
None of Homelander's bullying techniques would work. There's nothing to blackmail him with. Superman genuinely doesn't care about ratings or PR. Homelander will try to spread rumors and tarnish Superman's reputation, but nothing ever seems to stick.
Homelander will assume that Superman is just like him, being unable to conceive of the idea of someone just being a good guy. He'll be constantly waiting for Superman to retaliate, but he never does.
Basically, Homelander is just a less smart Lex Luthor with powers.
1
u/MaxChaplin 1d ago
I once saw a post that argued that Mary Sues aren't flawed, but rather misused. If it feels like a character is too powerful, you don't have to weaken the character, you can intensify the challenge.
This post here shows why it wouldn't work.
2
u/Lower-Ask-4180 13h ago
mutter mutter Goku Multiversal mutter mutter kick superman’s ass mutter mutter why no, I have not gone outside or showered in three months, why do you ask?
-6
u/biglyorbigleague 1d ago
I never enjoyed god-type superheroes. I’m one of those people who thinks Superman is usually boring because he’s an automatic win when there’s no kryptonite and an automatic loss when there is kryptonite so the whole story is moving kryptonite back and forth. Or they have him fight an evil god-type and it’s all energy punch vs energy punch. I’m not interested in hearing the philosophical discussion on whether you’re superior to humans or meant to serve them or whatever.
Give me Batman or Spider-Man any day. Those look like actual fights and feel like actual people.
5
u/ElectronRotoscope 1d ago
What I liked about silver age Supe is the challenge was never "who's stronger" because I find that kinda boring anyways. It was a lot of "how do I get this alien back home so it doesn't hurt anyone, but without harming it". He was so strong a strength contest would be boring, so that wasn't what the story was about
51
u/idiotplatypus Wearing dumbass goggles and the fool's crown 1d ago
Superman vs Saitama starts with Lex Luthor teleporting Saitama in to fight Superman, and Saitama snarking about their shared baldness. Superman and Saitama don't fight but instead have lunch at the Kent farm and the comic ends with Superman giving Saitama the fight he truly desires by introducing him to Doomsday