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u/ActuallyHill Oct 23 '22
As someone who is two semesters into software engineering classes. Is the work environment/ culture actually this bad for women? I’ve been seeing a lot of posts that are hateful towards women in this field lately.
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u/cametobemean Oct 23 '22
It truly depends on where you work. Some companies still support that kind of culture, some will straight up fire people for engaging in it. A lot of dudes who want to pretend they’re better devs than they are will try to act like the whole industry is like that, but I can tell you as a UX researcher, whose whole job is to talk to people about their jobs, it’s getting better and better and these guys are not really supported. They’re seen as hard to work with, at least at decent companies, which I’ve had the pleasure of working for, thank God.
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u/Llamp_shade Oct 23 '22
There are a lot of factors involved, but it can be really bad. The "brogrammer" culture is real. I work at a place that isn't always superficially toxic, but still has very real undercurrents of misogyny. Young women who work there will tell you it's a great place to work,. Talk to most women who have been there at least 5-10 years and you will get a very different take. Task assignments, promotions, and high profile positions overwhelmingly go only to men. Project leadership positions will be pulled from any woman who dares to consider having kids, but men who take paternity leave are never subjected to the same. New hires are nearly 50% women, but most leave within a few years due to variety of reasons that fall into the category of "hostile career environment." At least I've never heard anyone use the term "sweet tits."
I really don't want to discourage you from your educational pursuit! The culture needs to change. Giving up now just feeds the beast. Find allies. Fight to make change. But enjoy the job for what it is, too. Software engineering can be really fun!
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u/robot_in_socks Oct 23 '22
You will definitely have to deal with some people who doubt your abilities. It usually won’t be nearly as clear cut as this clown, especially with co-workers. I’ve had interactions that, years later, I’m still not sure we’re sexist or not. If you have a strong online presence and are a more well-known woman in tech, though, you will get online hate that looks like this. Some companies build a strong culture of diversity and inclusion, and attitudes like that get nipped in the bud… but in my experience you end up with men whose egos won’t allow them to get ‘beaten’ by a girl. That can take the form of hostile code review (a delicate process to begin with), or skepticism about proposed changes. Competence is assumed for every man fresh out of college— knowledge gaps are just things out-of-touch professors didn’t cover. Women (and non-white/Asians in general, if I’m being honest) are given no such benefit of the doubt. Culture can also cause conflict; I’ve seen men assume that female co-workers just wouldn’t want to join for gaming events or happy hours, and women who feel they have to show they’re ‘cool girls’. That all said, I love what I do, and the money is extremely hard to beat. The more women join the field the sooner these stereotypes will die. But yes, go in with eyes open.
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u/2star2wars Oct 23 '22
If it makes you feel better, in four years of college and three years of industry the only time I ever saw someone being sexist was just two random dudes on a bus saying they can’t get a job because they’re not women. Which honestly just makes me laugh because they’re just exposing themselves as being incompetent if no one will hire them
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u/DarthSinistar Oct 23 '22
I'm a woman working as an engineer, and I'd say it depends on where you work. I'm at a tech company in Massachusetts, and I've always been treated very well. I haven't heard good things about Silicon Valley in general (rampant misogyny, burnout culture, etc), so I've made it a personal policy to avoid it. I think as long as you do your research, you can find a place that will work for you!
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u/SpecialSeasons Feminist Killjoy Oct 23 '22
It can be. I'm in cybersecurity and I have seen both incel-minded misogynists and the nice guy, white knight types.
I think it depends on where you work - and, also, your online social circle. You can get job offers from LinkedIn and Twitter, so it's good to build up your online presence a bit, but doing so can leave you open to.. well, stuff like this.
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u/Jenniferinfl Oct 24 '22
For what it's worth, it's bad everywhere. In any field you either experience the misogyny of shitty pay working a traditional female career or the 'you don't belong here' of working a traditionally male dominated career. Pick your poison.
I work in accounting. A large national firm selected me to interview for a local branch, but then the local branch refused to interview any women. They literally marked that I canceled the interview and then they didn't show up for it. The recruiter called to ask why I had canceled the interview and I let them know that I didn't. They rescheduled it for me and the local canceled it immediately.
I sent the recruiter the interviewing managers social media page that was all misogyny and I think they were going to investigate the local branch.
I lucked out and am currently on a decent team, but even my current job I was hired into a team that was awful, just all men cheating on their wives and mocking women all the time and doing shit like the whole team going to a strip club for lunch with the manager. Just the men though, women weren't invited to the team lunch.
Anyhow, grow a thick skin. Document things. I don't mind the occasional rude joke, but if a dude thinks I don't belong there and is vocal about that I will spend the time it takes to get him fired. That's all you can do. You have to be perfect to not get fired and turn in perfect work and they can borderline commit crimes, get no work done and not get fired. It's a really tough double standard.
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Oct 23 '22
It's bad but the result of that is there are many places that are very focused on being not that
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u/AdvocateDoogy Ally Oct 23 '22
He's been rejected by women far more successful than he will ever be and he is pissed.
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u/pnandgillybean Oct 23 '22
If you call a woman you don’t know sweet tits, I feel that it’s highly unlikely that you have enough social awareness to assess anyones effectiveness at their job, let alone someone who you’ve never seen work.
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u/beanbeanbons Oct 23 '22
When I talk about how women in STEM or other male dominated fields get treated badly all the 16 year old boys come at me with the “sure, yeah right” “where’s the proof” “source: trust me bro”
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Oct 23 '22
My mom used to be a computer programmer in the 80s and a majority of her team was incredibly incompetent men she always had to go out of her way to help do their jobs, then they’d act like hot shit whenever they got something right. Smugness is rife within the men of this field, and I don’t know why because they seem to be kind of stupid.
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u/carputt Oct 23 '22
I have 4 software engineers on my team. 3 males 1 female. The female is by far the strongest one. Also, English was her third language.
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u/one_little_victory_ Anti-misogyny Oct 23 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
The software engineering lead in my work group is a woman. She's worked on multi-million dollar projects for us for nearly 20 years now. We've had zero complaints about her. She always produces the highest quality work.
I'd love to see this guy go mouth off to her like this and get smacked. Engineering is not gendered. It blows my mind that males still think this shit in 2022. We should be well past it by now.
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u/jospam Oct 23 '22
I saw the original tweet first and thought this would be about her "being too pretty to be a swe" (which is bad already), but oh no, this is definitely worse lol
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u/mika--- Oct 23 '22
i want to die because of men like this:(
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u/ProzacforLapis2016 Oct 23 '22
Live to spite them. Nothing better than owning your own life as much as possible and watching them seethe over it.
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u/ergonomic_logic Oct 24 '22
I'm so glad I work in a place that has zero tolerance for this sort of nonsense. Guarantee the guy who said it is in his 60's and he has been obsolete for a while and is bitter about it.
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u/SeasonPositive6771 Oct 24 '22
Every time some dingleberry wants to post about how:
there's basically no more sexism in the tech world, or if there is
it's really minor, and if there is,
women are just blowing out of proportion, and if there is
it's not important and
women just need thicker skins
I want to show them this sort of thing happening to a real person and scream until my face explodes because this has a real and chilling effect on essentially every women's experience in STEM.
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u/unknownartist3 Oct 24 '22
isn’t normally “sugar tits”? i swear that’s what it’s supposed to be, i’ve never heard anyone say “sweet tits”. yk unless the sentence is, “hey dude, sweet tits!!!”. this goober can’t even misogyny right
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u/Bullfist Oct 24 '22
Women are more thorough ya dick bag. Ergo, probably better at programming than men are.
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u/exfamilia Oct 24 '22
Gosh. I wonder what he thinks about my work hardware troubleshooting then. I mean, I charged out at a ridiculous rate, considering I was the equivalent of an intern. They paid it too. Can't have been because I was worth it and had the reputation... maybe they were just blinded by my sweet tits when my agent presented the invoice.
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u/1ustfu1 Oct 24 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
women are so hot.
oh, you’re a software engineer and you’re a WOMAN?
cool. that’s amazing. you’re smart as hell and you’re hot for that.
would absolutely love to see this woman completely destroy his ass with a single comeback.
edit: y’all missed my fucking point, morons. i’m a woman and i can guarantee y’all fucking missed my point.
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u/Junglejibe Oct 24 '22 edited Oct 24 '22
We don’t need to contextualize everything women do by how hot it makes them, you know.
Edit: lmfao bitch ass really blocked me for the mildest criticism ever. Also women can still perpetuate misogyny; that is the absolute shittiest defense I have ever heard. What you said was gross and objectifying.
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u/1ustfu1 Oct 24 '22
you all missed the point lmao... i am a woman. i was saying women were “hot” for doing absolutely everything, and not “hot” as an “oh wow, i want to fuck you” way, just as an “oh wow look at you, you’re killing it” way. give me a fucking break, y’all literally be misunderstanding things said by women and claiming it’s what our oppressors do to us 🤦🏻♀️
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u/One_Wheel_Drive Oct 23 '22
Early computing was originally more popular with women.
That's not to mention Ada Lovelace and the enormous part she played in the field.